FORK upgrade - TRAXXION AR-25 K41-1 or MATRIS FY125SE

[twf]

22 hours ago, klx678 said:

 

Question, these popped up in a search, Matris Fork Cartridge Kit for Yamaha FZ-07 and XSR700 on ebay for $325,.  click here 

At the risk of sounding quite ignorant, but not wanting to skip the question...   I'm a bit confused on the pictures, seems the damper is at the top, spring below?  Doesn't make sense to me.  What am I missing?

 

Valve is on bottom, basically same as emulator or traxxion. It fits inside stock damper rod. Black tube is just fancy spacer. You do get preload adjustable caps in this kit.

[klx678]

The budget says use the Traxxion set up or similar, because it will suffice for my street riding, no matter how hard I might ride.  I'm no street racer.  I just like a brisk pace on the good roads I know and care when I don't know them.

[klx678]

6 hours ago, twf said:

Valve is on bottom, basically same as emulator or traxxion. It fits inside stock damper rod. Black tube is just fancy spacer. You do get preload adjustable caps in this kit.

Makes me wonder if this is the better buy between the Traxxion kit and it.   I like the idea of a more precise machined damper rod.  The Traxxion looks like a well thought out product.  Any thoughts out there?

[Lone Wolf]

Here is an in-depth video by the owner of Traxxion fully explaining that AR-25 product. 

 

[twf]

1 hour ago, klx678 said:

Makes me wonder if this is the better buy between the Traxxion kit and it.   I like the idea of a more precise machined damper rod.  The Traxxion looks like a well thought out product.  Any thoughts out there?

With all of them problem is rebound, which is more important than compression. Traxxion one is easy to install yourself. If you not doing it yourself and have to pay somebody you getting really close to cartridges which are huge difference from this kits. Just because you don't race and only ride on street you will still benefit from good suspension. 

[JanM]

The Matris FSE fork kit shown differ from the Racetech Emulator and the Traxxion AR-25 in that the Matris has shim stack control of both compression and rebound flow.

Work with any of the kits mentioned where you feel most confident, that you can get the support you need.

[klx678]

When the Traxxion AR-25 valve is shown it looks like there are two separate shim stacks, making me wonder about the valving there.   I may have to contact them about it.   That would essentially be the same thing as the cartridge, but not totally closed with separated gas and fluid.

If the Matris has it and Traxxion doesn't that may make me go that way.\

Who in Arizona is selling them on ebay, anyone know?

[JanM]

19 minutes ago, klx678 said:

When the Traxxion AR-25 valve is shown it looks like there are two separate shim stacks, making me wonder about the valving there.   I may have to contact them about it.   That would essentially be the same thing as the cartridge, but not totally closed with separated gas and fluid.

If the Matris has it and Traxxion doesn't that may make me go that way.\

Who in Arizona is selling them on ebay, anyone know?

The AR-25 compression piston clearly has a deflecting shim stack for compression damping control and a spring loaded checkvalve for rebound flow - rebound damping is done by a bleed hole only as in the stock forks, no deflecting shimstack for rebound damping control in the AR-25. A proper cartridge has deflecting shim stacks for both compression and rebound damping control. The Matris kit can be thought of as an evolution of the Racetech Emulator, that also includes deflecting shim stack control of the rebound flow.

Both the Racetech Emulator, Traxxion AR-25 and Matris FSE will improve your forks and all of these systems can be modified or changed if you feel the need. So you need to find a provider that will be able to give you the service you think you need.

[twf]

20 minutes ago, JanM said:

 The Matris kit can be thought of as an evolution of the Racetech Emulator, that also includes deflecting shim stack control of the rebound flow.

 

I cant tell by picture, how they getting oil to flow on rebound side? Still through same pin hole on damper rod? 

[JanM]

Here is a better picture of the Matris FSE valve. Rebound flow still goes through the stock hole in the damperrod before going through the shim stack, but a thinner viscosity oil is used so control is by the shim stack, as rebound speed does not get very high which could be effected by the stock hole size in the damperrod.

The two o-rings ensure that the oil from the stock damperrod hole goes through the shim stack, but i do not remember exactly how it is handled through the valve or if there is a contribution from other flow.

[JanM]

Zoran - looks like it could be interesting to get creative with a set of pistons from a 41mm Big Piston Fork and some time on a lathe....

[twf]

Still having hard time seen how rebound shims work. How does oil get to valve through stock pin hole. Don't see hole in valve holder. Looks more like they closed it all together with o-rings and rebound stack is just check valve.

 

[klx678]

I had seen that video, I thought I had seen double shim stack in the valve, but I guess not.  He says it is compression valving, so apparently rebound is still by set size holes.

So from what I am now gathering, the Matris has more than just holes, but rather shim stacks to control both compression and rebound.  Apparently the Traxxion does not.  The Matris actually has both the compression and rebound damping in the same fashion as a sealed cartridge, but not sealed.  As long as it is in fluid it will act similar to that of the cartridges, but without the adjustment capability.  

It seems then that the Matris should perform better through both ranges of damping.  Some questions rear their heads

• Is there the same kind of damping valve control needed for rebound as in compression for the street rider?   Seems almost all rebound will be near the same speed at least for street use.
• If so, how important is it to have that better valving for rebound?   
• Does it make the Matris the better buy not just because of price, but because of better fluid control in both directions, compression and rebound?  

I am definitely getting a bit of education on the whole thing, as I wanted before I make a decision.

Edited November 24, 2020 by klx678

[JanM]

18 hours ago, twf said:

Still having hard time seen how rebound shims work. How does oil get to valve through stock pin hole. Don't see hole in valve holder. Looks more like they closed it all together with o-rings and rebound stack is just check valve.

 

The rebound stack definitely is a deflecting shim stack like compression. I am a bit unsure about the actual rebound flow. As the forks are otherwise stock and unmodified, the normal rebound flow has to go somewhere. Maybe the Matris FSE kit works mainly by the displaced fluid from the stanchion in both directions as the piston ring seals on the inside of the stanchion.

Couldn't find any good descriptions when searching, so short of buying a kit and see, I am not sure I can get any closer. Maybe one of the resellers or distributors can help.

[JanM]

16 hours ago, klx678 said:

I had seen that video, I thought I had seen double shim stack in the valve, but I guess not.  He says it is compression valving, so apparently rebound is still by set size holes.

So from what I am now gathering, the Matris has more than just holes, but rather shim stacks to control both compression and rebound.  Apparently the Traxxion does not.  The Matris actually has both the compression and rebound damping in the same fashion as a sealed cartridge, but not sealed.  As long as it is in fluid it will act similar to that of the cartridges, but without the adjustment capability.  

It seems then that the Matris should perform better through both ranges of damping.  Some questions rear their heads

• Is there the same kind of damping valve control needed for rebound as in compression for the street rider?   Seems almost all rebound will be near the same speed at least for street use.
• If so, how important is it to have that better valving for rebound?   
• Does it make the Matris the better buy not just because of price, but because of better fluid control in both directions, compression and rebound?  

I am definitely getting a bit of education on the whole thing, as I wanted before I make a decision.

In my opinion you still need to purchase and work with the product, where you feel you will get the best support.

[twf]

29 minutes ago, JanM said:

The rebound stack definitely is a deflecting shim stack like compression. I am a bit unsure about the actual rebound flow. As the forks are otherwise stock and unmodified, the normal rebound flow has to go somewhere. Maybe the Matris FSE kit works mainly by the displaced fluid from the stanchion in both directions as the piston ring seals on the inside of the stanchion.

Couldn't find any good descriptions when searching, so short of buying a kit and see, I am not sure I can get any closer. Maybe one of the resellers or distributors can help.

Those 2 o-rings seem to close rebound hole all together, unless there is hole not seen in picture. That reduces rebound to whatever leaks past check valve in fork tube. I think stack is just displaced oil slowing refill. Kind like mid valve on cartridges.

[JanM]

16 minutes ago, twf said:

Those 2 o-rings seem to close rebound hole all together, unless there is hole not seen in picture. That reduces rebound to whatever leaks past check valve in fork tube. I think stack is just displaced oil slowing refill. Kind like mid valve on cartridges.

No, there is still the refill of the volume of the stanchion, as it moves out of the slider - if the Matris FSE valve seals against the inside of the stanchion, this refill flow can be directed through the valve and provide rebound damping. Same - but different direction - for compression.

[klx678]

1 hour ago, JanM said:

In my opinion you still need to purchase and work with the product, where you feel you will get the best support.

And then the question.  Who might that be?   Since I've never dealt with any of them I have no idea.

[twf]

22 minutes ago, JanM said:

No, there is still the refill of the volume of the stanchion, as it moves out of the slider - if the Matris FSE valve seals against the inside of the stanchion, this refill flow can be directed through the valve and provide rebound damping. Same - but different direction - for compression.

Right, that is what I meant, refill is rebound control. Instead one shim spring loaded there is shim stack. 

[klx678]

25 minutes ago, JanM said:

No, there is still the refill of the volume of the stanchion, as it moves out of the slider - if the Matris FSE valve seals against the inside of the stanchion, this refill flow can be directed through the valve and provide rebound damping. Same - but different direction - for compression.

Keep it up, I think I'm learning something here.   Like I said, I see how a double acting valve could be put in place.  

Edited November 24, 2020 by klx678

[twf]

10 minutes ago, klx678 said:

Keep it up, I think I'm learning something here.   Like I said, I see how a double acting valve could be put in place.  

Putting it in place is easy, making it work without sealed chamber is another story. 

[klx678]

Now I remember how my shocks worked.  They had the compression stack on the end of the shock shaft and the rebound as a stack in the cap on the bottom end of the internal shock cylinder.   Squish out the top suck in the bottom.   They would work fine to a point.  Since the air in the shock was not separated from the fluid it could aerate.  There was a company that did a kind of sealed system on a really low level by filling the shock with fluid and a sealed plastic bag of gas that would take up space in the shock body, separating the fluid from the "air".   Pretty much the function now done by heavy rubber bladders in the current shocks.   Not sure about the fork cartridges, but I believe they would be the same.  The gas making up for displacement by the damper shaft, the bladder ending aeration.

I wish I could see a good working diagram of the Matris and the Traxxion, flow direction and the valving process for the flow in each direction.

 

 

[twf]

That would be twin tube shock which is same as fork cartridge. Still better than emulsion shock.

The ones with bladder are even better because pressure and no air mixed with oil keeps it more consistent and less cavitation. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by twf

[klx678]

Yeah, I was around in the 70s-up with all the suspension changes.  Wrote a paper for a class once about the rising rate suspensions by the Japanese in the mid 70s.  Real interesting time.   

I asked a question about the Matris stuff on their site and they do have shim stack flow control both compression and rebound.  Makes it a really interesting thing.  The advantages of dual control, not as affected by fluid temperature.  Like half the cartridge kit for half the price.

I have to say I am torn on it, Matris or Traxxion.   Like Traxxion for in U.S. source for information.  Like the Matris for the valving.

[klx678]

Well, I took a flying leap into the Italian abyss,

ordering the Matris kit on ebay for $325, around $347 with tax.   I figure with the springs and preload adjusters, it is worth trying.

I will try to take some pictures and give an uneducated impression once done.