shinyribs Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 Thank you. I know I should probably just tear a fork open instead of asking a bunch of dumb questions, but I have to have the bike down. The only damper rod forks I've been in are sohc CB's and a KLR. Neither of them had anything like that between the bottom of the damper rod and the slider. What is the function of that flared bottom stop? Just a cheap way to locate the damper rod without actually having to machine the inside of the slider? Is all the weight on the fork ultimately resting in that plastic ( nylon?) bottom stop? Would seem like it. Looking at that picture, which I really appreciate, looks like I could just turn up a new flared bottom stop with the amount of lift I want added to the bottom. I should be able to come up with longer bolts, but I can always make my own bolts if needed, or rethread the rod if push comes to shove. Maybe I should eBay a bent fork leg to take apart and inspect on the cheap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 The flared piece at the bottom of the damper piston rod is anti-bottoming. If the fork comes close to its bottom, oil pressure will raise rapidly and prevent metal-to-metal contact and also soften to bottoming a little. If you do not want extra travel, you can do as Greg suggested and just either fit a spacer below the bottoming cone or make a new, longer one. All you need then is a longer bolt to hold things together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 33 minutes ago, shinyribs said: Thank you. I know I should probably just tear a fork open instead of asking a bunch of dumb questions, but I have to have the bike down. The only damper rod forks I've been in are sohc CB's and a KLR. Neither of them had anything like that between the bottom of the damper rod and the slider. What is the function of that flared bottom stop? Just a cheap way to locate the damper rod without actually having to machine the inside of the slider? Is all the weight on the fork ultimately resting in that plastic ( nylon?) bottom stop? Would seem like it. Looking at that picture, which I really appreciate, looks like I could just turn up a new flared bottom stop with the amount of lift I want added to the bottom. I should be able to come up with longer bolts, but I can always make my own bolts if needed, or rethread the rod if push comes to shove. Maybe I should eBay a bent fork leg to take apart and inspect on the cheap... That white plastic piece on bottom is oil lock piece (hydraulic stop). Some bikes have metal instead plastic (2nd gen sv). If you only making spacer under it you have to machine spacer in the way to allow plastic to sit in it centered. It is easier to just make whole piece and get rid of plastic that is just problem in long run. You don't even need oil lock piece at all, we take them out on race bikes. You get more useable travel that way and if forks are set up right you should not be bottoming out anyway. ps. 1st gen sv tubes are 20mm longer and direct bolt on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 48 minutes ago, faffi said: If you do not want extra travel, you can do as Greg suggested and just either fit a spacer below the bottoming cone or make a new, longer one. All you need then is a longer bolt to hold things together. To do that spacer has to be machined in for oil lock piece to sit in. If you just make flat spacer fork tube can slam against plastic piece and break it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 The bottom of the inside of the fork is a simple flat . A spacer that fitted below the rod/valve with a flat face would emulate the stock fork bottom. It would be a simple cyl. of material ( Al , Hi den Nylon, etc) with a 10mm hole along the long axis for a longer bolt to fit through to the stock rod. Possibly would need some chamfers on the corners to get a good fit, that's about it.. A spacer fitted to the bottom of the rod but inside the valve would have to be more complex. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, gregjet said: The bottom of the inside of the fork is a simple flat . It is not. It is recessed for oil lock piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 This is bottom of the fork. First circle is where oil lock piece sits in. 2nd circle is where fork tube hits if fully bottomed out. That surface is higher up from oil lock piece surface. To make spacer you would need to mimic this surface, side facing up. Side facing down should fit inside 1st circle. OD of spacer should be ID of fork leg with just enough clearance to slide it down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 Ah, oil lock = hydraulic lock. I thought the oil lock was some sort of oil seal between the damper rod and stanchion, and that's why it was making no sense to me. Yeah, never seen that device before. My old bikes just let shet crash together if you were dumb enough to let them bottom lol. Thanks a bunch guys. Feel like I've chased my tail and forced y'all to follow. Sorry for the dumb questions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Thanks for that twf. It would be insanely difficult to measure directly. Maybe spray with CRC/DWF/RP7 and push a piece of plasticine onto it and measure the offsets. It has been 3 years since I looked down there, and a few forks inbetween, so your assistance is appreciated. My forks have been pattonme's cartridge forks for a couple of years so have't been back to them. Looking at the valve though ( I do remember it has a very weak spring inside) , do you think the it actually needs the ridge ring to function. It appears that the fluid gets forced through a small cutout in the base. It is hard to see how the ring would effect much. But if the plasticine worked , it would be easy enough to add to a bottom spacer. Good pic BTW. That would have been a bastard to light properly to get such a good pic. To be honest you longer SV650 rod comment would seem to be an even easier way to go. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 It is easy to measure using oil lock piece and tube once they are out. What little spring you talking about, the one in oil lock piece (which is just to center it on damper rod) or the one in check valve inside fork tube? Easy to take pic when tube is cut in half Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 On 2/13/2018 at 9:44 PM, shinyribs said: Does anyone set taller fork caps? I've shopped around and found nothing, but I do that alot. forget the oil lock - just throw it away. I have fork caps that are 10mm longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 On 2/13/2018 at 9:26 PM, shinyribs said: I think I'd really only be interested in longer ZX6F tubes, to be honest. Then you want R3 tubes and damper rod for maximum comparability. Otherwise CBR600F2 had really long tubes but it too is a cartridge system so you MUST keep all the internals with the tube. The only other damper rod fork with long tubes that comes to mind is the 92-97? ZX6E as in echo. I used to run them (briefly) on my 41mm forks (ZR-7) but again you HAVE to use the Kaw's damper rod. If you're desperate you could replace the top-out spring with a rear shock bumper but you have to be careful not to plug the rebound hole. Trust me, life is so much simpler and easier with cartridges. For example with my in-house GSXR retrofit, I can make the fork longer by about 2 whole inches. subject of course to minimum bushing overlap. Yes the damper-rod bolt is 10x1.0. Shock linkage and radial caliper bolts are sometimes that as well. Anyway back to your longer bolt with slip-fit collar is actually not a bad idea. A piece of 1" or 1.25 dia should act as a mechanical stop. If a suitable bolt can't be found then the spacer would be male threaded on one end and female at the other. A judicious amount of locktite should keep the 1" spacer firmly wedded to the damper rod above it. BTW have you located some R3 damper rods? The fz07 units are such utter crap you might as well fix that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 The R3 tube is 25-30mm longer than FZ07. I used a measuring tape so forgive the inaccuracy. Put my +10 fork caps on it and get some R3 damper rods and bob's your uncle. I have brand new tubes for the R3, and both gen SV650. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 Thanks again, pattonme. No, I haven't collected any parts yet. Still collecting info and weighing options. So R3 tubes are 25-30 mm, but the damper rod is only 15mm longer? If I'm thinking about that right, that will give you 25-30mm of lift while adding 15mm of travel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 GOD I love this forum.!!!!! It been a while since I had the stock fork internals and I may have mixed them up with one of my other bikes but I seem to remember a very thin wire spring about 20mm(ish) and 3 or 4 coils inside the white valve that allowed it to float. But that may have been the GS500 I was working on. My apologies if it has confused the debate. I don't even have the original stuff anymore because pattonme's cartridge internals are non reversible , so I sold the lot with the gold valves and the locator cups I made and the rods modded to suit so it was plug and play. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 ADMIN: There is some really useful stuff in this thread for lengthening. Possible useful as a stickey? Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, gregjet said: GOD I love this forum.!!!!! It been a while since I had the stock fork internals and I may have mixed them up with one of my other bikes but I seem to remember a very thin wire spring about 20mm(ish) and 3 or 4 coils inside the white valve that allowed it to float. But that may have been the GS500 I was working on. My apologies if it has confused the debate. I don't even have the original stuff anymore because pattonme's cartridge internals are non reversible , so I sold the lot with the gold valves and the locator cups I made and the rods modded to suit so it was plug and play. Spring inside the white valve (valve in fork tube not oil lock) is to allow oil flow on compression stroke. FZ has spring washer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstyammerha Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 so using the R3 damping rods and fork stanchions is going to be around $300 using Partzilla or BikeBandit. This sounds pricey to me. Pattonmes custom damper rod and GSXR fix maybe more competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 I'm actually surpsried they are that cheap buying them new. If I go that route I'd probably hit up ebay for forks. Cooking up another option that will be free, which is always good. Gonna take a bit of work, though. I really wish I could hate these fork like other guys do. I'd just replace them if that was the case, but I honestly can't find anything terribly wrong with them. *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 13 hours ago, shinyribs said: Th So R3 tubes are 25-30 mm, but the damper rod is only 15mm longer? Sorry if I confused you. The R3 and FZ07 damper rods are ~identical in length under the flare. The R3 doesn't have any extra travel. The tubes are simply longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 11 hours ago, gregjet said: but I seem to remember a very thin wire spring about 20mm(ish) and 3 or 4 coils inside the white valve that allowed it to float. You're not senile yet! Yes the hair-spring is to yield to the pressure of fluid going down the channels cut lengthwise down the inner bore of the white plastic fluid lock. The fluid lock will then float off the floor and let oil escape to the surrounding space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 2 hours ago, shinyribs said: I really wish I could hate these fork like other guys do. I'd just replace them if that was the case, but I honestly can't find anything terribly wrong with them. *shrug* I have a T-Shirt from Zoran with a phrase printed on the back that would probably explain why you still have that opinion. *grin* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 7 hours ago, firstyammerha said: so using the R3 damping rods and fork stanchions is going to be around $300 using Partzilla or BikeBandit. This sounds pricey to me. Pattonmes custom damper rod and GSXR fix maybe more competitive. On ebay there are a couple guys from Hong Kong that sell pairs of stanchions for like $150. They're pretty good. I absolutely would NOT buy R3 damper rods. Just wait for some more R3 jobs to come my way and I'll sell them to you for $149 ^H^H^H free. I guess I should have hung onto the previous ones. I tossed them at the metal recycle guy. To think I could have made bank on them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 9 hours ago, pattonme said: I have a T-Shirt from Zoran with a phrase printed on the back that would probably explain why you still have that opinion. *grin* Yeah, yeah..."the best you know is the best you've ridden", right? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 9 hours ago, pattonme said: You're not senile yet! Yes the hair-spring is to yield to the pressure of fluid going down the channels cut lengthwise down the inner bore of the white plastic fluid lock. The fluid lock will then float off the floor and let oil escape to the surrounding space. Actually opposite, spring pushes fluid lock down. Pressure is same inside and outside of it, if anything it will push it down. Spring is to keep it down and centered on rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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