The Dark Side of Super Bright LED Flush Mounts

[Beemer]

I constantly hear people talk about safety gear and being safe but I get the impression that when it comes to cleaning up the looks of a bike all safety concerns go right out the window and that's acceptable and I wonder why that is.

What am I talking about? I'll say it this way. Would anyone take their super bright Cyclops or other head light and make a mount for it that makes it face to the side instead of forward? No, you wouldn't because you know it's the people in front of you that are the biggest concern, the people you are traveling at speed toward. So by the same logic, why would anyone want their turn signals facing to the side? Obviously, we want our headlights pointing forward to light the way at night but just as importantly we should want people in front of us to see as much of that headlight as possible, not just a small portion of it or only 50% of it's brightness. Here's a little test anyone can do in case they aren't following.

 

In a dark room, hold a flashlight in front of you (arms stretched out) and turn on the light. Slowly start turning the flashlight so that you just see a sliver of the surface area and hold it there in that position and notice how bright it is and how little you can see of the surface of the lens. Not very bright and not much of the surface is seen. Now turn the light in small increments and you'll see how the light gets brighter and brighter the more it turns toward you and how much bigger the light becomes, it's not just a sliver now. So saying a turn signal is really bright (I've heard that many times) isn't everything. Saying it's super bright, the brightest on the market is just a marketing ploy. It's not the only part of a true test of it's effectiveness.

I said all that in hopes that maybe some people will see flush mount turn signals, as bright as they may be, as being something that not only improves the looks of their bike but also as being something that diminishes their chances of being seen by the people that matter most, the ones in front of you. Not the ones in cars next to you at a light thinking > those lights really clean up the looks of that bike.

 

Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes, not my intension, flush mounts do look great but it had to be said.

[bornagainbiker]

Maybe I'm not crazy to stick with the pumpkins after all. 

[yamahazaki]

People who put on flush mounts don't care about safety.  Or they are ignorant.  I want to find out how many people with flush mounts ride with hi viz yellow jackets.  Probably very little to none.

 

Look, I'm guilty of caring about style before safety- when I first bought my motorcycle.  2 years in, I actually removed a good deal of "mods" and reverted back a few things to stock in the name of safety (put pumpkins back on, got rid of the very dangerous Motodynamic taillight). 

 

I actually have a huge beef with LED signals in general.  Why don't they use reflectors?  It makes no sense.  LEDs look bright as shet inside your garage but in sunlight you hardly can see them.  I know half of the arguments about flush mount is they care more about the back signals than the front (for safety)- I get it, but having LED rear signals is pretty dangerous as well if you ask me.

 

I want to start up a company that makes safety (visibility) focused LED signals that use reflector backings.  Ok, I won't start that company up, but hopefully someone does.

[tavisb]

Somebody doesn't understand how LEDs work lol. 

[yamahazaki]

13 minutes ago, tavisb said:

Somebody doesn't understand how LEDs work lol. 

Probably.  But, many of the aftermarket LED indicators are very skinny or small to begin with.  They literally can use whatever board it has to be in and place it on a reflective housing and it will still be around the size or even smaller than stock.  Do you deny that?  Or are you just the kind of guy who didn't want to think it through and wanted to go straight to the insults?

[r1limited]

There are plenty of statistical data to show the who what when and why accidents occur, so I wont repeat this.  It is of my opinion only that I will clearly state

 

"Any addtional, removal, modification, etc that lessons, restricts or removes visibility well is just plain stupid"

[Thrasherg]

29 minutes ago, yamahazaki said:

Probably.  But, many of the aftermarket LED indicators are very skinny or small to begin with.  They literally can use whatever board it has to be in and place it on a reflective housing and it will still be around the size or even smaller than stock.  Do you deny that?  Or are you just the kind of guy who didn't want to think it through and wanted to go straight to the insults?

The issue is that LEDs emit light straight out from the substrate, not to the sides so any reflector is useless as there is no light coming out the sides to be reflected, So they dont need and cant make use of reflectors!! Manufacturers are trying to get light to come out the side of LED's but they are not commercially available, currently if you want LEDs that emit light to the side, you have to add extra LEDs that are mounted sideways, then you could add a reflector, but why bother? just add more LEDs facing straight out and do away with the reflector..

 

Gary

[tavisb]

46 minutes ago, yamahazaki said:

Probably.  But, many of the aftermarket LED indicators are very skinny or small to begin with.  They literally can use whatever board it has to be in and place it on a reflective housing and it will still be around the size or even smaller than stock.  Do you deny that?  Or are you just the kind of guy who didn't want to think it through and wanted to go straight to the insults?

Sorry, wasn't meant to be an insult. Just struck me as funny. Looks like someone already explained why. 

[DewMan]

3 hours ago, bornagainbiker said:

Maybe I'm not crazy to stick with the pumpkins after all. 

You're not.

I kept the pumpkins and added LED bulbs to them to get the best of both worlds.

[mick97702]

I'm extremely safety conscious (look at my profile picture). My bike and I have reflective material all over the place and I wear a hi-vis jacket, backpack, and helmet, and I have opted for flush mount front turn signals. The units I have installed strobe as they flash. I put a ton of forthought into it from a safety concern. To counter your thought on straight ahead brightness, if someone is coming at me head on, I have bigger problems! All of your forward facing oncoming traffic will always be offset from the front of your bike by at least 25°. From this angle the intensity of the lights from a straight on view is significantly brighter, therefore increasing visibility, especially when taking into consideration the strobing pattern. And from a vehicle 90° perpendicular to the bike (traffic from a side street for example) will have the full effect of the signal. Vehicles parallel to you in adjacent lanes will also have an increase in view. With dedicated forward only lights, adjacent traffic traveling in the same direction has zero visibility, and 90° perpendicular traffic has a significantly reduced view. I also installed rear facing LED turns that matches the strobe pattern of the front signals and installed a integrated turn signal tail light that stutter strobes when the brakes are applied. There is not a place on my bike that you can stand and NOT see my signals flashing, night  or DAY! I have had multiple people comment on how visible my bike is when my turn signals are on and while braking. Some have even complained that they are too bright (if there is such a thing)! Since these modifications, I have had significantly less people misinterpret my motives and actions. And almost nobody comes up on me hard at a stop sign or light. Generally speaking,they will give me at least a car length of cushion.

So in conclusion, it is my opinion that the specific lights that I chose and installed dramatically increase my visablilty, both day and night, and therefore my safety. 

Now I'm not saying ALL flush mount lights are created equal either. You get what you pay for in my opinion. But to flat out state that ALL flush mount signals are unsafe and anyone who uses them does not care about safety, is an unfair claim. 

Just out of curiosity, the guys who make these claims that they are not as safe as dedicated forward facing LED lights, have you seen them in use, "in person"? Don't trust videos guys! They do not do them justice! 

Now I know that this is an international forum, and even here in the good ol' USofA, laws vary as to what is, and is not legal as far as flash patterns and such. But for my country and state I feel that I have maximized my safety without compromising looks.

[SkH]

They can simply make a small led "bulb" inside a reflector housing. You know how the cyclops led bulb looks like? But smaller. I believe they already exist but no one thought to design a blinker around it. Personally, id buy one if someone makes it. Believe me, i know how sadly dim leds are in sunlight. I removed my expensive italian led blinkers and put back stock pumpkins after reviewing videos of myself riding during the day shocked at how hard it is to notice my turn signals in the rear when signaling. Leds suck major ass in sunlight.

 

Im intellectually honest with myself.

[mick97702]

To each their own my friend. If you personally feel better with incandescent, then by all means go with it!  Heck, You can get some pretty bright halogen bulbs as well!

 

But again like I said earlier, I do not trust videos. I have tried time and time again to record my LED lights and the cameras I  have access to fail to capture what the human eye sees. Fellows I ride with say they are way brighter than stock and the flash pattern draws your eye, and we only ride during the day. 

 

If all LED lights are so poor during the day, then why are all emergency vehicles lights LED now?

 

It's all about the quality of the LED, not the price. When I mentioned "you get what you pay for" earlier, I was referring to $10 lights on eBay. I've also seen $160 lights that were nice looking, but poor quality LED's (lipstick on a pig). I think I paid $60 for mine and I have yet to see anything brighter. 

 

 

[pegasus46]

3 years ago LED's did just as you have said but not any more. Just a quick example: I have switched to LED's in my house whenever an incandescent bulb blows. The new ones direct light just the same as any incandescent. The only difference is that a 100 watt equivalent LED bulb uses 8 watts and will last longer than me or the lamp it is plugged into. The same applies to the newer style LED bulbs for motorcycles and cars. The reflector just has to be specifically designed for the LED.

[mick97702]

Very few LED bulbs use reflectors as they are almost pointless. Typically manufacturers will radiate LEDs around a central point aiming outwards to create the illusion of 360° of light.The very basis of an LED light is directional, typically 115-180° forward (outward) from the base of the LED. When reflectors are used, they need to be placed on each individual LED for maximum efficiency. This makes it very difficult to create a light on a small form factor that would be needed an automotive.

 

The actual visual light dispersion from an LED is optimal for turn signals as is! Why would you want a spot light turn signal? Wasn't the whole point of this discussion safety? You want to disperse light to the largest, broadest area possible, and as bright as possible. Reflectors will not increase the intensity of the light. Only the LED quality can increase that. That's why you see so many new bulbs coming out like the cree 3 Etc.

 

If you want a more technical explanation of this, check out this link.

 

https://www.ledsupply.com/blog/#article/1130

 

Now lenses are another story. The Light transmitted through a frenzel lens can be dispersed to a broader area. But you have to match the LEDs to the lens color. For example if you put a white LED behind a yellow lens you will actually get a decrease in light output due to light being filtered by the lens. Where as a yellow LED behind a yellow lens can pass through freely with no filtration.

 

 

[tavisb]

12 hours ago, mick97702 said:

I'm extremely safety conscious (look at my profile picture). My bike and I have reflective material all over the place and I wear a hi-vis jacket, backpack, and helmet, and I have opted for flush mount front turn signals. The units I have installed strobe as they flash. I put a ton of forthought into it from a safety concern. To counter your thought on straight ahead brightness, if someone is coming at me head on, I have bigger problems! All of your forward facing oncoming traffic will always be offset from the front of your bike by at least 25°. From this angle the intensity of the lights from a straight on view is significantly brighter, therefore increasing visibility, especially when taking into consideration the strobing pattern. And from a vehicle 90° perpendicular to the bike (traffic from a side street for example) will have the full effect of the signal. Vehicles parallel to you in adjacent lanes will also have an increase in view. With dedicated forward only lights, adjacent traffic traveling in the same direction has zero visibility, and 90° perpendicular traffic has a significantly reduced view. I also installed rear facing LED turns that matches the strobe pattern of the front signals and installed a integrated turn signal tail light that stutter strobes when the brakes are applied. There is not a place on my bike that you can stand and NOT see my signals flashing, night  or DAY! I have had multiple people comment on how visible my bike is when my turn signals are on and while braking. Some have even complained that they are too bright (if there is such a thing)! Since these modifications, I have had significantly less people misinterpret my motives and actions. And almost nobody comes up on me hard at a stop sign or light. Generally speaking,they will give me at least a car length of cushion.

So in conclusion, it is my opinion that the specific lights that I chose and installed dramatically increase my visablilty, both day and night, and therefore my safety. 

Now I'm not saying ALL flush mount lights are created equal either. You get what you pay for in my opinion. But to flat out state that ALL flush mount signals are unsafe and anyone who uses them does not care about safety, is an unfair claim. 

Just out of curiosity, the guys who make these claims that they are not as safe as dedicated forward facing LED lights, have you seen them in use, "in person"? Don't trust videos guys! They do not do them justice! 

Now I know that this is an international forum, and even here in the good ol' USofA, laws vary as to what is, and is not legal as far as flash patterns and such. But for my country and state I feel that I have maximized my safety without compromising looks.

 

Have the same flush mounts on mine. I don't feel like I've lost any visibility...

 

 

[mick97702]

3 hours ago, tavisb said:

 

Have the same flush mounts on mine. I don't feel like I've lost any visibility...

 

 

So this proves my point beautifully! If I were to make a judgement call of the brightness of these lights based on your video, I'd pass on them. Including your headlight that I assume is a Cyclops. Most guys know how good and bright they are!  You just can't capture the intensity of MOST lights that the eye can see, with a camera, nor can a phone or computer screen replicate it! If they could, you would be seeing spots stairing at your headlight on the video. 

 

Thanks!

[Beemer]

mick97702

Like I stated before, my intention isn't to bash but how could you twist my meaning like that?! People coming directly at each other, head on??? I thought it was obvious what I meant, that they were coming toward each other but in opposing lanes. I think someone is playing with a stacked deck when they talk like that. I and I think for most here, need more than pics and video of your side facing flush mounted blinkers close up in a dimly lit garage or at night under bright camera flash, at the side of and ten feet away from your bike.

 

In a nutshell, I think we all get that they are probably sufficient or more than sufficient at night from 'most angles' and distances because they are bright but what we are talking about that you don't seem to grasp is just how good are those flush mounts in the bright sunlight of the day and at a distance of an oncoming (not head on) car. Make me a believer and make some video of your bike in the setting I described if you want me to believe what you say holds true in all lighting conditions. If I'm wrong I'll eat my words.

[afatrat]

16 hours ago, SkH said:

I removed my expensive italian led blinkers and put back stock pumpkins after reviewing videos of myself riding during the day shocked at how hard it is to notice my turn signals in the rear when signaling.

Would these be Rizomas? Put some on a while back and didn't realize how tiny they were when I ordered. They're bright as hell but they're tiny dots in the daylight.

Also, I've noticed nobody ever posts pics/videos of led's in the daylight. Always in a garage or at night (this thread included). Pretty useless.

[mick97702]

Im not sure how you feel I twisted anything. Your statement was people who  use flush mounts throw safety out the window. I simply countered your argument. 

Obviouslyyou failed to read my posts completely. Multiple times I have stated it is not possible to capture the effect with photos or cameras. They are incapable of showing the true intensity that the human eye sees. I also gave links and documentation supporting other questions.

Have you personally seen them in use? If not then how can you blankety claim they are unsafe? 

And again I also stated that this was my personal choice. If you felt I was attacking you, you can rest assured it is just fun debating and personal opinion.

[mick97702]

15 minutes ago, afatrat said:

Would these be Rizomas? Put some on a while back and didn't realize how tiny they were when I ordered. They're bright as hell but they're tiny dots in the daylight.

Also, I've noticed nobody ever posts pics/videos of led's in the daylight. Always in a garage or at night (this thread included). Pretty useless.

Size is irrelevant. Do they capture your attention when in use? If yes, then they are doing there job.👍

Again cameras are not capable of capturing the true effect that the human eye ACTUALLY sees in real life.

[tavisb]

On 1/20/2018 at 11:04 AM, mick97702 said:

So this proves my point beautifully! If I were to make a judgement call of the brightness of these lights based on your video, I'd pass on them. Including your headlight that I assume is a Cyclops. Most guys know how good and bright they are!  You just can't capture the intensity of MOST lights that the eye can see, with a camera, nor can a phone or computer screen replicate it! If they could, you would be seeing spots stairing at your headlight on the video. 

 

Thanks!

So, being a science guy I grabbed a light meter and took it out to the garage. These results are from 12" away from each light. All other light sources were blocked off. I didn't bother unwiring the lights to see what the signal output would be if steady, I just let the blinkers run and recorded the highest reading I got. They would probably all be higher if I kept it always on instead of strobing (the Protons are supposed to output 500 lumens and I think they are probably close to that, I was getting a headache from them when trying to record the reading), but this should be good enough to draw a few conclusions. 

 

All readings are in lumens. 

 

 

[mick97702]

You rock @tavisb! Great information.

It's like trying to take a picture of the sun. Sure you can see it in the picture, but it's nothing like actually looking at the sun.

[rider]

The Proton 500's aren't true flush mounts are they?  They look like they stick out about an inch or so (like a hump).  The flush mounts I've seen on sport bikes and a few cars are almost flat and pretty much invisible from the front.

These are on my want list but I think I'll have to see them in action, in person in daylight before I make up my mind now.  The reviews seem really good and they look good in videos, but, as previously pointed out, video is not the greatest reference for this.

We bought both of our bikes used and the previous owners had already put Ebay looking turn signals and we didn't get the pumpkins with the bikes.

[tavisb]

5 minutes ago, rider said:

The Proton 500's aren't true flush mounts are they?  They look like they stick out about an inch or so (like a hump).  The flush mounts I've seen on sport bikes and a few cars are almost flat and pretty much invisible from the front.

These are on my want list but I think I'll have to see them in action, in person in daylight before I make up my mind now.  The reviews seem really good and they look good in videos, but, as previously pointed out, video is not the greatest reference for this.

We bought both of our bikes used and the previous owners had already put Ebay looking turn signals and we didn't get the pumpkins with the bikes.

Yes, they stick out a bit.

 

[mick97702]

35 minutes ago, tavisb said:

I redid the test but programmed the Protons to do a slow pulse instead of the strobe, and got better results. I also tested the LED headlight, but my meter only goes to 2000 lumens and it was over that.

 

 

Is that the LED headlight or incandescent? Just confused by the column it's in.