gregjet Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 OK This is full of caveats as I saw this add when I was looking for something else. I don't know what or how it is made ( ie machined/cast etc). I don't know the quality of the bearings. And , as I shall explain furthur, I don't know what design specs they used. This IS the best way of lowering IF!!! the suspension curve and some important other factors were taken into consideration. Using the dogbone to lower is the perfect way to lower IF you want to lower and maintain the spring/damping curves. You can even improve the curve for the intended use ( ie make it ramp faster to help avoid sitting too far into the travel for ground clearance on a lower bike for example). It is cheap enough to take the risk if someone has to lower their 07 and if you buy it and give the deminsions I ask for, I can plug it into my suspension software and check for curves, travel and check for overcentre etc. It would make me remeasure the lost data points I need for the 07 that I haven't got around to yet. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CNC-Aluminum-Adjustable-Lowering-Link-Kit-30mm-For-2013-15-Yamaha-MT-07-Blue-BS4/253230171285?epid=2110267258&hash=item3af5b1c495:g:8T8AAOSw44BYcJWC Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member blackout Posted January 16, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted January 16, 2018 I like the color, but wonder what aluminum it is machined from.... Craig Mapstone Upstate New York Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I would love that in a raising version! Not sure how I'd go about raising the front end to match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstertt Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I've seen these for $40 before on ebay, I believe they said 6061-T6 but not sure. This link has a longer top leg which indeed lowers the rear but also gives a longer arm for the shock to work against the swing arm...like adding a stiffer spring and making for a harsher ride (would go thru stroke quicker too) while at the same time losing rear wheel travel...not ideal in my estimation. I fabricated a new upper 6061-T6 bell crank with a 1/2" shorter top leg which increased the rear ride height about 7/8"-1" or so and increased the rear wheel travel. This shorter top leg also gave the shock a shorter arm to work against the swing arm so the shock acted like it had a lighter spring and went thru the stroke slower for a slightly more compliant ride if I can believe my butt meter. shinyribs....raising the rear a bit while 'leaving' the front end alone helps 'turn in' feel more neutral and coming out of a corner less of the stand up and run wide effect, like lowering the front...same effect but better ground clearance with raised rear and more anti squat coming on the power out of the corner. For someone wanting to experiment, I think the multi position 'dogbone' link is the way to go...like gregjet said 'if you want to maintain spring/damping curves but also have the ability to raise or lower the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 Markstertt, Yeah a longer lever may give a harsher ride, but the thing about using this component to lower or raise, is that it is possible to get the same lever ratio by rotation of the linkage angle. Do you have the specs for this link? I actually raised my 07 ( for a number of reasons) using a Xtreme creations multiposition crank link, but toyed with making a dogbone to some custom specs. My milling skills are reasonably crap though so when I saw the Creations one I just got that. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 15 hours ago, markstertt said: shinyribs....raising the rear a bit while 'leaving' the front end alone helps 'turn in' feel more neutral and coming out of a corner less of the stand up and run wide effect, like lowering the front...same effect but better ground clearance with raised rear and more anti squat coming on the power out of the corner. For someone wanting to experiment, I think the multi position 'dogbone' link is the way to go...like gregjet said 'if you want to maintain spring/damping curves but also have the ability to raise or lower the rear. Thank you. The 07 already had a fairly steep steering angle. And I'm very happy with how the bike works. I've wondered about raising the rear alone and seeing if I liked the change, but I'm a tad skeptical about it. Maybe I'll give it a go sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 pity no specs at all. Instead of changing just the one leg of the 'L', we (well, Greg since you have Tony's software) should be able to come up with an arrangement for the 3 holes to achieve shorter (or longer) but little or no change in leverage. I leave it as an exercise for yous' engineers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstertt Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 6 hours ago, gregjet said: Markstertt, Yeah a longer lever may give a harsher ride, but the thing about using this component to lower or raise, is that it is possible to get the same lever ratio by rotation of the linkage angle. Do you have the specs for this link? I actually raised my 07 ( for a number of reasons) using a Xtreme creations multiposition crank link, but toyed with making a dogbone to some custom specs. My milling skills are reasonably crap though so when I saw the Creations one I just got that. Another forum member tried that alloy crank (or similar) for lowering purposes and found the harsher ride to be unacceptable using the stock shock and 'no' I don't have any specs on that one. Haven't tried any bell cranks with a different angle yet, just lengths. I also use a homemade multi position lower dogbone link to test with my bell crank so that I can change ride ht. back to stock or lower/higher easily. 5 hours ago, shinyribs said: Thank you. The 07 already had a fairly steep steering angle. And I'm very happy with how the bike works. I've wondered about raising the rear alone and seeing if I liked the change, but I'm a tad skeptical about it. Maybe I'll give it a go sometime. True it has a steep steering angle but I think less trail than sport bikes with similar rake but I really haven't researched this, I do know that both -07's that I've ridden acted the same coming out of corners and when I raised the rear this symptom went away with no ill effects noticed. I'm no racer but the effect on the street was nice so I can see why the racers raise the rear. If you're happy with how your bike works now but want to experiment then the multi position dogbone link would be my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Good info! Thanks! You mentioned your homemade links. I'm gonna guess heim joints and a turn buckle? If so, what size heims did you use? I think that's a 12mm bolt through there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 Raising the rear only definitely helped my 07 turn and feel a little more planted as well. Sounds wrong for something with this geometry until you factor in the rearward CoG. I have covered this before when pattonme pointed out the very short stock trail. My theory is that the rear biased CoG mitigates the steephead/ short trail a bit. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Interesting, I keep reading on here about the 07 being rear-weight biased, but the bike feels the opposite to me. Or, at least it did under first impressions. Now that I've got proper bars fitted, maybe I'm not hunched over so far. Found this raising kit. Didn't know they were calling them "jack up" kits now. Interesting product description talking about the suspension effects. If it's solid stainless, wouldn't it be very heavy? https://www.bikefarmmv.com/Yamaha-MT-07-2014-Jack-Up-Kit-Race Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstertt Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 15 hours ago, shinyribs said: Good info! Thanks! You mentioned your homemade links. I'm gonna guess heim joints and a turn buckle? If so, what size heims did you use? I think that's a 12mm bolt through there? No, mine is made the same as the lower stock link only the top is made with multiple staggered holes, stock, higher and lower in 4 and 6mm increments. One of our forum members did make a nice unit with heim joints however. 3 hours ago, shinyribs said: Interesting, I keep reading on here about the 07 being rear-weight biased, but the bike feels the opposite to me. Or, at least it did under first impressions. Now that I've got proper bars fitted, maybe I'm not hunched over so far. Found this raising kit. Didn't know they were calling them "jack up" kits now. Interesting product description talking about the suspension effects. If it's solid stainless, wouldn't it be very heavy? https://www.bikefarmmv.com/Yamaha-MT-07-2014-Jack-Up-Kit-Race Yes stainless would be very heavy but with a more skeletonized design would be more acceptable, however, in their picture they modeled their relay arm (Yamaha speak for what I call alloy bell crank) the same as stock....6061T6 aluminum is working for me following stock design except for a few milled in lightening slots along the legs. The raising or lowering link (upper alloy L) will change ride compliance/harshness and wheel travel depending on whether you raise or lower the rear, using the lower steel or alloy, dogbone link with multi positions will raise or lower the rear with no noticeable effects to compliance/harshness. Knowing this going in will give you something to consider...this is street tested by me, a non expert, non racer so there's my disclaimer. I need different bars but haven't figured out which way to go...I do like more flat track style sit up positioning for a bum shoulder. I keep reading all posts on handlebars...someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grefshk Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I bought a lowering spring kit from HyperPro and it turned out amazing. Lowered the front and the rear about 20mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Marksterrtt, that's good info.Thanks. I did dig up a picture of the link you made. Nice work, man. Do you have any numbers on hand to explain the difference in heights/ rake angle? For example, when a "jack up kit" is advertised as +25mm ( roughly one inch), I wonder if that equates to +25mm at the seat, or +25mm at the tip of the tail ( tail light, basically). I can't imagine +25mm at the tail light would make much difference on rake, but I could see how it could pull some trail away pretty easily. I may ebay a stock link and see about whipping up some new side plates for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member blackout Posted January 17, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted January 17, 2018 56 minutes ago, shinyribs said: Marksterrtt, that's good info.Thanks. I did dig up a picture of the link you made. Nice work, man. Do you have any numbers on hand to explain the difference in heights/ rake angle? For example, when a "jack up kit" is advertised as +25mm ( roughly one inch), I wonder if that equates to +25mm at the seat, or +25mm at the tip of the tail ( tail light, basically). I can't imagine +25mm at the tail light would make much difference on rake, but I could see how it could pull some trail away pretty easily. I may ebay a stock link and see about whipping up some new side plates for it. My guess is the +25mm would be measured at the rear axle. Craig Mapstone Upstate New York Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstertt Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 20 hours ago, blackout said: My guess is the +25mm would be measured at the rear axle. I agree since it would need to be based on a constant or typical measuring point the same as sag...from the center of rear axle vertically to a point on the body work. 21 hours ago, shinyribs said: Marksterrtt, that's good info.Thanks. I did dig up a picture of the link you made. Nice work, man. Do you have any numbers on hand to explain the difference in heights/ rake angle? For example, when a "jack up kit" is advertised as +25mm ( roughly one inch), I wonder if that equates to +25mm at the seat, or +25mm at the tip of the tail ( tail light, basically). I can't imagine +25mm at the tail light would make much difference on rake, but I could see how it could pull some trail away pretty easily. I may ebay a stock link and see about whipping up some new side plates for it. Thanks,sorry no numbers...I prototyped links made from corian counter top material after doing some basic layouts on paper to see which way I wanted to go...I then removed the shock spring (Penske) and measured ride height, wheel travel etc. with my links installed. I knew how raising the rear would change the forks rake/trail in principle but not in numbers since I wasn't going to do anything about it but was just testing to see what difference rear ride height made to the handling characteristics. The adjustable length shock (by itself) allows an adequate change in ride ht. to mitigate the handling quirk I was trying to eliminate but I also wanted to play with ride ht. changes made by using the modified links to see the effects on rear ht., wheel travel and different leverage on the shock. Yes, I just bought an extra dogbone link off ebay, cut the legs off (after getting dimensions) chucked the hub up in a lathe and cleaned it up, then made 4130 chromoly legs with my dimensions to weld back on. I did damage one of the original bearings so had to install new. Were I to make another, I'd probably just start with all new metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member blackout Posted January 18, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted January 18, 2018 For the dog link, it sucks that Yamaha used a needle bearing inside diameter size that is not standard. Not standard means that McMaster-Carr does not sell it. I found this out earlier this winter when I was contemplating a new link design that would be double adjustable. (Adjust without pulling either of the link bolts.) Craig Mapstone Upstate New York Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstyammerha Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 when it comes to bearings, try a bearing supply house like Bearings and Drives. I've taken a few bearings to them over the years and their counter sales never failed to help me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstertt Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 1/18/2018 at 11:16 AM, blackout said: For the dog link, it sucks that Yamaha used a needle bearing inside diameter size that is not standard. Not standard means that McMaster-Carr does not sell it. I found this out earlier this winter when I was contemplating a new link design that would be double adjustable. (Adjust without pulling either of the link bolts.) There is such little movement at the bottom end of the dogbone link that I'm not sure it even needs rolling element bearings....wouldn't be surprised if a solid bearing/bushing with a grease zerk wouldn't be sufficient, any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 15 minutes ago, markstertt said: There is such little movement at the bottom end of the dogbone link that I'm not sure it even needs rolling element bearings....wouldn't be surprised if a solid bearing/bushing with a grease zerk wouldn't be sufficient, any thoughts? Personally, I would prefer a bushing over a needle bearing, even on swingarm pivots. Like you mentioned, the bearing never rolls, so you actually end up with just a few narrow points of contact on the tiny needles, which eventually wears the bearing out faster than a bushing. Needles make sense on long travel, offroad bikes that cycle their swingarms far and often, but on a street bike I much prefer a bushing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member blackout Posted January 21, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, markstertt said: There is such little movement at the bottom end of the dogbone link that I'm not sure it even needs rolling element bearings....wouldn't be surprised if a solid bearing/bushing with a grease zerk wouldn't be sufficient, any thoughts? Yup, I agree completely and thought the same. One reason why I justified just using an aluminum rod-end on my current link. BTW, Sleeve bushings were also not available in the size that Yamaha uses. McMaster-Carr sells metric bearings and bushings, but not the size that Yamaha chose. A size up and a size down, lol. Craig Mapstone Upstate New York Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Those heims are way tougher than some might expect. Yours looks like it has a pretty large body. Is it urethane bushed or just aluminum giving it that size. Did you mill that yoke yourself? I want a mill so bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstertt Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 5 hours ago, blackout said: Yup, I agree completely and thought the same. One reason why I justified just using an aluminum rod-end on my current link. BTW, Sleeve bushings were also not available in the size that Yamaha uses. McMaster-Carr sells metric bearings and bushings, but not the size that Yamaha chose. A size up and a size down, lol. Yamaha didn't want to make it easy on us did they? On the Hugh's 500's I used to work on, the rotor blade links had steel heims with a phenolic looking liner that the ball rotated on...no lubrication necessary. Other aircraft heim joints can be had with a grease zerk but then even a plain old pregreased by hand type would be fine in this application I think. I mounted my gopro down there to watch the action of the suspension and linkage and that dogbone (Yamaha connecting arm) barely moves at all... especially the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbo10 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I have used bikefarmMV dogbones before with success. Some English spoken there too. Just do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member blackout Posted January 21, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted January 21, 2018 11 hours ago, shinyribs said: Those heims are way tougher than some might expect. Yours looks like it has a pretty large body. Is it urethane bushed or just aluminum giving it that size. Did you mill that yoke yourself? I want a mill so bad... Here is a link to the rod end. The shank is 5/8" with a 1/2" bore so the body is beefier. Made from 7075 aluminum with a polymer race. I milled the yoke myself. I'm lucky to have a manual mill available at work. No lathe though. The yoke is 6061 aluminum. https://www.qa1.net/rod-ends-and-related/rod-ends/endura-series/am-series-aluminum Craig Mapstone Upstate New York Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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