faffi Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 In 1984, Kevin Cameron wrote an article in Cycle magazine about active suspension, how Lotus was testing real world models. Cameron considered it the future. Not the least because the systems we use today are quite inferior, even the suspension used in MotoGP. Simply put they cannot follow the road and they come with a harshness as well as harmonics detriment to handling, grip and stability. He also expected the active suspension to lower the bike under acceleration and braking and raising it for cornering clearance and bigger bumps. Not only for racing, but for everyday riding. Cameron also expected to see power steering and stabilizing systems that allowed radical steering geometries far beyond what a human can control by him/her self. Like fighter airplanes that would shake apart in seconds if left alone to be controlled by a human with no computer assistance. He also wrote about putting multiple 'puters in the bikes to make sure that if one went down, there would still be several working - the bad one would simply be shut off together with an error message, but without disturbing performance. Furthermore, he expected the fork to be replaced by better systems (which only BMW have tried on a large scale) and traction control more sophisticated than even the best we see today. Not everything happens as quickly as we (some) anticipate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topazsparrow Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Ultimately even the best ideas in the world fall to the bean counters in corporate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Cycle Magazine is the New york slimes I mean times of motoercycling. “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 Cycle news? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 37 minutes ago, faffi said: Cycle news? What? See your infected man, “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbo10 Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 In car tests I still read about the compromise between suspension that works on the track and that which is comfortable for the commute/leisure. Why is there still that situation? You would think there must be enough control systems around to have sorted that by now. Kevin currently writes in 'Motorcycle Sport & Leisure'. Always interesting. Just do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Hover Boards we still dont have either. I am pissed “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 4 hours ago, topazsparrow said: Ultimately even the best ideas in the world fall to the bean counters in corporate. Boy do they ever. I wrote a rant about the Kaw Z900. It has *worse* suspension than the preceeding Z800 and Kaw whent out of their way to cripple it to boot. Just asinine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topazsparrow Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, pattonme said: Boy do they ever. I wrote a rant about the Kaw Z900. It has *worse* suspension than the preceeding Z800 and Kaw whent out of their way to cripple it to boot. Just asinine. Can you imagine the eager young engineers tasked with making a great motorcycle... only to present their masterpiece of engineering and modern speed, perfectly specced within the constraints of the project... to the bean counters and smarmy sales fvckwads to butcher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 11 hours ago, topazsparrow said: Ultimately even the best ideas in the world fall to the bean counters in corporate. I think that likely is the answer in that so far, the cost is higher than the benefit. Mostly, I guess, because the volume has been so low that development cost is prohibitive. And the fact that it was banned in F1 25 years ago. Fuel efficiency may also play a part since the power to operate the hydraulics must come from somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 https://www.designboom.com/technology/kawasaki-kz1000-mystery-ship-custom-motorcycle-01-11-2017/ “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member bornagainbiker Posted January 11, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted January 11, 2018 23 minutes ago, r1limited said: https://www.designboom.com/technology/kawasaki-kz1000-mystery-ship-custom-motorcycle-01-11-2017/ Wow, not sure what to think. Kinda looks like a jet lifting it's nose just before takeoff. Give Respect To Get Respect https://jeff-galbraith.pixels.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyow5 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 18 hours ago, robbo10 said: In car tests I still read about the compromise between suspension that works on the track and that which is comfortable for the commute/leisure. Why is there still that situation? You would think there must be enough control systems around to have sorted that by now. Kevin currently writes in 'Motorcycle Sport & Leisure'. Always interesting. GM perfected a magnetorheological damper that they then licensed to Ferrari and other brands. It uses iron particles suspended in the shock oil and a nearby electromagnet. As the magnetic field increases, the fluid stiffens. It is expensive and not something the average buyer would ever actually notice though. Buyer (and dealer) ignorance are huge obstacles. Why add a feature when so many competitors have it that customer assume you already do, too? I read an article recently where a Mercedes owner thought it was faulty because they didn't have an option they assumed was standard. That sort of situation makes it very hard for even the bean counters that are enthusiasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1limited Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, bornagainbiker said: Wow, not sure what to think. Kinda looks like a jet lifting it's nose just before takeoff. This was Vetters design, I remember seeing one years ago. Even back then I thought "Thats F**ked up Never understood how everyone touted his designs as revolutionary, I thought they all were fugly as fu*k “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” --Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemer Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 They lied to millions of kids, a whole generation and told them when they grew up they would be in one of these: The bastards! I'm still waiting! 😉 Beemer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 You can't just blame the "bean counters" ( though you certainly not wrong to a large extent). With motorcycles the biggest problem is the buying public. Here are some real reasons why we don't have more advanced bikes ( and don't get me started on bicycles): Looks. Motorcycles limit on top speed in the vast majority of cases is their coefficient of form drag ( and riders included). If manufacturers made proper fully faired bikes to do this , customers complained they didn't like the looks ( no form follows function here mateys). The Hyabusha is ranted on how ugly it looks. That is proper fairing folks. If you don't want that , you don't want speed and fuel efficiency. Full stop. Worse, riders are crapping on about how they "prefer" naked bikes. Then go and make all these incremental improvements to get back the speed they lost in drag. The really funny one is sportsbikes. For years manufacturers tried all sorts of things to limit the engine performance to reduce the top speed ( driven by govt regulation mostly...and insurance companies). Every trick they tried, users would get around. Then they twigged that contempoary users are LOOKS focused. So now we have top speed limited by "parachute" design fairings that increase the drag so much, that it limits top speed and the owners won't touch it because it "looks" cool. The "manga" look of current Jap bikes is as good as towing a chute. Look at the sport bikes up to the early 2000's they are that shape to reduce drag. The big rear tailpiece that is so out of fashion , is out of fashion because MotoGP introduced rules to make the tail piece less aero to increase drag and limit the top speed. OOOOH I need a small tailpiece like GP bikes. The majority of form drag is from the REAR of a form, not the front. Looks again. How many people on this forum have commented on how they like the look of the short pipe. The length of a pipe for max performance is determined by the RPM/Cam angles. Racing bikes have short pipes because the pulses are closer together. Few road bikes are correctly powered by a short pipe ( original CBR250RR and FZR250 etc are exceptions with max rpm between 12000 and 20000). If you want more power for your 07 you want a LONGER pipe. But so many people comment they like the shorter look. Why spend 1000bucks for a pipe that isn't optimal? Because it LOOKS better. Suspension: The vast number of people that purchase motorcycles will spend thousands on engine performance upgrades and cosmetic upgrades, and nothing or minimal amounts on suspension. This is how it always been. This forum has been a revelation in just how many people are interested in getting it right for their bike, but it is NOT the usual ( BMW forums also tend to be suspension focussed). Manufacturers know that putting proper suspension on the vast majority of bikes WILL NOT INCREASE SALES. Even on this forum you hear how the stock suspension is fine. IT ISN'T .The suspension on the 07 is poor enough to affect the safety in both braking and cornering. Compounded by the "looks" addition of an overweight oversize rear tyre the forces the rear suspension to struggle even more. It's what customers want. Looks over real performance every time. Fuel capacity. The 07 has a tiny almost unusable tank size in many countries, because Europe and US buyers have fuel station every few feet ( and as many towns). They are the majority of buyers. Even with the nicely frugal engine the tank in too small for anything but looks and, as revealed in an interview in a mag with a Yamaha exec., it helped them advertise a lower wet weight for the bike to attract more buyers. As I said , don't just blame the bean counters for lack of advancement of motorcycles. ( don't mention bicycles...don't mention bicycles...) Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topazsparrow Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, gregjet said: If you want more power for your 07 you want a LONGER pipe..... Why spend 1000bucks for a pipe that isn't optimal? Because it LOOKS better. The dyno sheets say otherwise... You're probably correct on paper, but in the real world with non-race spec bikes that don't have thousands of dollars of engine work done to them, the exhaust restriction generally isn't the choke point once you're into aftermarket pipes. Intake, TB, valves and heads start impacting things more than the optimal length of an exhaust on a mechanically/interal stock bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 The Akro carbon ( snail pipe) , Arrow and GPR make full length pipes. These guys are Motogp level manufacturers. And people comment on how they like the shorter ones. This is a low peak HP bike. the pipe will be longer. Show me a comparison of pipes direct on the same dyno at the same time. Not that it matters anyway because 2 into one with conventional maths on a 270deg crank is always not going to be optimal. The pulses interfere. The Yamaha factory race bikes also use a F1 type stepped header for the neg pulse for their assymetric cyl joining ( they actually join the asymmetric pulses no purpose) but they ain't giving anyone their secret maths. And yes you are completely right about choke points, added to the fact that street riders don't ride at peak HP rpm for much of the time anyway. My point was the looks rather than logic ruling the choice. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topazsparrow Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, gregjet said: The Akro carbon ( snail pipe) , Arrow and GPR make full length pipes. These guys are Motogp level manufacturers. And people comment on how they like the shorter ones. This is a low peak HP bike. the pipe will be longer. Show me a comparison of pipes direct on the same dyno at the same time. Not that it matters anyway because 2 into one with conventional maths on a 270deg crank is always not going to be optimal. The pulses interfere. The Yamaha factory race bikes also use a F1 type stepped header for the neg pulse for their assymetric cyl joining ( they actually join the asymmetric pulses no purpose) but they ain't giving anyone their secret maths. And yes you are completely right about choke points, added to the fact that street riders don't ride at peak HP rpm for much of the time anyway. My point was the looks rather than logic ruling the choice. Yeah, but for street riders, the looks match the logic as you said yourself, we don't ride around at peak HP RPM practically ever. Given a short pipe that looks better and a long one that has potential to perform better under very specific circumstances which don't apply to 99% of street riders, Looks is pretty much the only deciding factor. Is the debate about race bikes or street bikes? The business of selling street bikes is a reflection of customers wants and needs, combined with what the bean counters will allow. Anything else is a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member bornagainbiker Posted January 11, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted January 11, 2018 4 hours ago, Beemer said: They lied to millions of kids, a whole generation and told them when they grew up they would be in one of these: The bastards! I'm still waiting! 😉 Yeah, and what about these: Give Respect To Get Respect https://jeff-galbraith.pixels.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 Longer headers give more low-rpm power, shorter pipes more high-rpm power. Alas for street riding you would want longer headers more often than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I don't get the gripes about the FZ's "bargain suspension". I've owned some old bikes and ridden some junky suspension. If Yamaha put rockstar status suspension on the FZ/MT 07/09 "entry level bikes, that would cut in to their R1 and R6 mega-buck bike sales. People who like upright seated bikes, like the FZ, generally don't want or need sportbike suspension and the ride quality that comes along with that package. The FZ rides comfy and handles very well. It doesn't handle supersport good, but it's very good all the same. The FZ's are standard bikes with sporty looks. It's not a sportbike. It's not even 80hp. Could the FZ handle better? Sure. Do I rail on my FZ and drag it's pegs all over the place? Absolutely. But if someone needs true sportbike handling, they should've just bought a sportbike. And supersports are fking uncomfortable. The FZ is not supersport, and it was not designed or sold as one. It's a very great handling standard with a marvelous engine. IMO, the best lightweight sport-touring mount ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 If my MT-oh-seven had been soft and comfy, I would not have complained. But it was harsh. Really harsh. And at 200 lb nekkid, I'm no light dude. My old Z650 from 1977 rides like a Cadillac in comparison, as does my 1982 Virago. Same with the 1992 CB400SF - ultra-plush compared to the stock 07. With the upgrades, it's still a very firm ride, but at least the suspension reacts, and there is much more reserve for really bumpy sections plus more control when riding briskly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member DewMan Posted January 11, 2018 Premium Member Share Posted January 11, 2018 21 minutes ago, shinyribs said: I don't get the gripes about the FZ's "bargain suspension". I've owned some old bikes and ridden some junky suspension. If Yamaha put rockstar status suspension on the FZ/MT 07/09 "entry level bikes, that would cut in to their R1 and R6 mega-buck bike sales. People who like upright seated bikes, like the FZ, generally don't want or need sportbike suspension and the ride quality that comes along with that package. The FZ rides comfy and handles very well. It doesn't handle supersport good, but it's very good all the same. The FZ's are standard bikes with sporty looks. It's not a sportbike. It's not even 80hp. Could the FZ handle better? Sure. Do I rail on my FZ and drag it's pegs all over the place? Absolutely. But if someone needs true sportbike handling, they should've just bought a sportbike. And supersports are fking uncomfortable. The FZ is not supersport, and it was not designed or sold as one. It's a very great handling standard with a marvelous engine. IMO, the best lightweight sport-touring mount ever. I am not, nor have I ever been a racer/knee dragger on my bikes. If I had to label my riding style I'd say I'm a "recreational" rider. For those of us heavier than the stock FZ-07 suspension was designed for, an upgrade to the suspension, in my mind anyway, was a requirement. Prior to the upgrade a curve, even ridden at legal speeds, always felt "dicey" if I had to boil it down to one word. After the upgrade my suspension isn't even something I think about. I've owned a couple of 80s era bikes and never felt the need to upgrade the stock suspension on them even after a combined 60K miles. For whatever reason I felt the need to upgrade the suspension on the FZ-07 even prior to completion of the break in miles. I'm not disputing anything you said. I'm just respectfully giving my own experience/opinion on the subject. ✌️ DewMan Just shut up and ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 1 hour ago, DewMan said: I'm not disputing anything you said. I'm just respectfully giving my own experience/opinion on the subject. ✌️ Totally understand, man. No worries here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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