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Another Contender for the FZ-07/09 - KTM 790!


topazsparrow

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2 hours ago, topazsparrow said:

 

I've been avoiding saying anything until this comment, but you're one of the sole reasons I don't bother posting questions or comments here lately. You spam replies in almost every single thread like it's your day job and most of your replies are inflammatory nonsense that bring little value to the discussions. You're static noise in an otherwise great forum.

 

Nobody is butt hurt here, they're just tired of nonsense comments without any substance or rational logic supporting them. When they ask for you to elaborate you  get defensive and call them names? I'm honestly not sure what brings you here.

 

These forums have an ignore user function, I'd suggest you use it.  To be fair, the amount of annoying/rude posters on these boards are very low (currently I'd say it is 2 people and one of them hopefully is on his way out) compared to other places I visit.

Engaging with people that have personality disorders on a message board is like arguing with a rock.

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Dustin Coffey

I want one! No doubt it will outclass the FZ-07; however, it will also cost more. 
Personal decisions people have to make for themselves. I'm all about power to weight. 

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Sally's KTM 690 Duke is now 4 years old and not counting the crappy original fuelling ( 07 owners are in no position to judge on that one), it has been completely reliable including a faultless ( but oft filled tiny fuel tank) trip of 7000km. It is the post 2012 version so condsiderably less stressed motor. The previous version had a lot of reliability issues . Her version had top end problems, but I appears to me to have been a particular run of them only.

I certainly would like to ride one.

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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  • 4 months later...
7 hours ago, faffi said:

Sounds like a T7 may have its work cut out for it if/when it arrives. On the plus side, it may happen before the KTM Adventure

http://www.mcnews.com.au/ktm-790-duke-review-motorcycle-tests/

faffi, thanks for that link...love all the cut away pictures of the engine etc. and comes back to the overall desirability of producing a modern parallel twin. And form does follow function as to me this very much looks like an improved, back engineered Euro version of our FZ-07 but then wouldn't any modern parallel twin? There is a lot I like about this Duke engine, slipper clutch, quick shifter, semi dry sump and the basic mid pack displacement and reported smoothness. I wish Yamaha had made the -07 a full 750cc from the start with say around 85 real h.p., cost would be little different.

 

I like the Dukes  linkageless rear suspension...if it works, then less is better in my book. Same with the forks...if they work well for the majority of riders then I don't have a problem with the lack of adjusters but only time will tell.

 

I see the engine has finger followers between cams and valves...I wonder about the mileage between valve lash adjustments and how it's accomplished. I do my own work, half the fun for me, and refuse to buy a bike that may require any dealer interference in my fun and ownership.

 

Price and reliability are my main concerns...as a THIS is the last bike I'll ever need/buy type scenario then the initial buy in is of less concern then the cost and need for maintenance down the road. I'm also not sure of all the 'bells and whistles' and one of the reasons I like the FZ-07, for it's sheer simplicity especially in the electronics dept.

 

I also need to see the Adventure version as the Yamaha T7 is in my sights as an -07 successor....it's a fun time in motorcycle design/development.

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It looks like a nice bike overall but that headlight makes the FZ-07 headlight look gorgeous by comparison.  I have never been a big fan of KTM instrumentation either.  They should have looked at the TFT display on the new Street Triple for inspiration. 

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Markstertt.

You can make a single pivot suspension work well, but it will never work as well as a equally well designed and executed multilink.  All the extra design and manufacture effort is for a good reason ( yes I know many bikes are full of marketing stuff of little function ours included). I just gives you a heap of variables you can tune properly compared to a single pivot ( of any design).

If you aren't in the US there is a very good comparison you can do if you can find them. The Honda 250 Vtwin Spada ( Inteceptor, I think it was called in the US) and the subsequent VTR250 allow a great comparison of multi and single pivot difference.  I raced both so it really showed up there.

Pretty much the same motor ( for this purpose, interestingly the older motor was much higher tune and power) and forks, but the frame and suspension were very different. The originla had a cast aluminium frame ( very modern design) and a multi link rear suspension. The later VTR had a Ducati copy tubular space frame upper chassis and a swingarm bolted to the back of the motor ie the engine was a stressed member. The rear suspension was a single pivot single shock .

The VTR ( space frame) bike overall handled better EXCEPT the rear couldn't be made to behave itself as well as the multilink Spada. Under braking and acc the Spada had to be finessed considerably more and on bumpy corners the single pivot rear was a bit of a handfull. Same brand and tuned shock. Lever ratio overall was the same so same shock/spring could be used.

 

If you are an mtb rider you will have come across exactly the same scenerio. When it gets rough and braking the single pivot just bounced around locked out.

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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gregjet...So perhaps in this case, the Duke 790, the non link rear is more of a cost saving feature? I see the 690 had linkage and you said it worked great right? I wonder how the NEW Ducati Desert sled suspension works, it is also sans linkage and has over 7" travel front and rear and so far haven't read of any big drawbacks but then I discount half of what I read so who knows. It doesn't look like they cut any corners on the Duke engine, those Pankl rods and pistons, the DLC on piston pins and finger followers etc. some pretty neat stuff. And 169 kilos dry, even with fuel i believe that's lighter than the -07.

 

mjh937...I'm not sure about the looks and found that I can only really make a decision in person, pictures some times don't do justice so I'll wait on that one. The seat looks like it might be up to the task though.

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KTMs are traditionally single-link. It's why they tend to run progressive shock springs and progressive (collapse) metering needles. My 690SM has a linkage though and it's pretty damn tight on the packaging so I can't see wny they couldn't have repeated that with the 790 aside from the factory wanted the looks of the single or they just couldn't get a linkage to fit.

 

AFAIK KTM has never lost sales because their suspension wasn't great - people who buy KTMs do so because they do. It's like beemer's. They have it in their head to buy one no matter it's foibles or tradeoffs. 

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3 hours ago, pattonme said:

KTMs are traditionally single-link. It's why they tend to run progressive shock springs and progressive (collapse) metering needles. My 690SM has a linkage though and it's pretty damn tight on the packaging so I can't see wny they couldn't have repeated that with the 790 aside from the factory wanted the looks of the single or they just couldn't get a linkage to fit.

 

AFAIK KTM has never lost sales because their suspension wasn't great - people who buy KTMs do so because they do. It's like beemer's. They have it in their head to buy one no matter it's foibles or tradeoffs. 

pattonme...looking at the 790 vs. your 690 I'd say the room was there for linkage but then they also like that area for huge muffler so maybe just a cost/space compromise? I hear you about the KTM & Beemer crowd, I think the Japanese have a handle on reliability and world wide parts availability so can't complain there for my Yamaha choice.

 

3 hours ago, faffi said:

Fewer things to clean and lube - I'm all for linkless 8)

Yep, like I said...if it works that's fine by me. The fz-07 has linkage and I'm not enamored with my suspension so....

 

I still like what I see in the engine particulars, the semi dry sump with 2 pumps (scavenge & pressure?) allows for a shallower sump pan....something that bothers me with the -07 is that vulnerable sump. If I get around to my scrambler FZ-07, I plan to spread the pan base out to match it's flange dimensions and cut an inch or so off it's depth. I wonder if the T-7 has the same scalloped pan since it's shape (on the fz-07) was obviously dictated by the placement of exhaust and muffler.

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22 hours ago, gregjet said:

 

If you aren't in the US there is a very good comparison you can do if you can find them. The Honda 250 Vtwin Spada ( Inteceptor, I think it was called in the US) and the subsequent VTR250 allow a great comparison of multi and single pivot difference.  I raced both so it really showed up there.

Pretty much the same motor ( for this purpose, interestingly the older motor was much higher tune and power) and forks, but the frame and suspension were very different. The originla had a cast aluminium frame ( very modern design) and a multi link rear suspension. The later VTR had a Ducati copy tubular space frame upper chassis and a swingarm bolted to the back of the motor ie the engine was a stressed member. The rear suspension was a single pivot single shock .

The VTR ( space frame) bike overall handled better EXCEPT the rear couldn't be made to behave itself as well as the multilink Spada. Under braking and acc the Spada had to be finessed considerably more and on bumpy corners the single pivot rear was a bit of a handfull. Same brand and tuned shock. Lever ratio overall was the same so same shock/spring could be used.

 

 

Found an old Aussie test of the VTR250 that may or may not be of interest to you.

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Honda/honda_vtr250 03.htm

 

"The VTR also uses the pivotless-design Honda pioneered on the VTR1000,

where the swingarm bolts directly to the engine cases. This means the engine

acts as the swingarm pivot point, which in theory means the frame can be made

lighter without compromising rigidity. I found the suspension cried foul long

before the frame did when pushing the VTR to its limits, so the chassis

designers seem to have done a good job.

Handling is confident and easy.The best feature here is the bike’s really

neutral steering, which makes the bike confidence inspiring, so important for

learners and returnees to motorcycling. The suspension does its job reasonably

well, but some will find this area a little disappointing – especially the

heavier set among us. Being a small, lightweight bike, the VTR does suffer under

heavy lugs like me (93kg) – after all, the poor thing does only weigh only 139kg

(dry). Under hard braking the suspension can bottom out and hard riding can see

some wallowing and a lack of damping at both ends – but I feel I’m being a bit

hard on the bike here."

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markstrett,

The 690 Duke in my opinion was THE best stock suspension on a bike I have ever ridden. Yes the rear is a very well made and designed linkage.  It just seems to handle anything and was unnoticeable ( which is exactly what you want a suspension to be). The final force vector on the frame seemed to be completely neutral. First bike I have ever ridden where I had absolutely no desire to change to components or any piece of the desgn. My girlfriend weighs almost the same a me ( although she is a less assertive rider) so it should have performed about the same. We are both about 84kg.

 

faffi,

The VTR250 was a little beauty. In my opinion THE best learner motorcycle there is for the street, bar none. might be down on power numbers .but it weighed stuff all and had bags of torque because of the fantastic motor. But the Spada rear suspension was definitely better on both the track (smooth) and the street ( North Queensland rough). Both, WITH a quality shock ( Yacugar), and the stock shocks. The big difference with the single pivot was in rear feel under braking and even more so under lumpy braking. The little CBR125R's, we used to race had, the same single pivot design and the same brand shock ( Yacugar) and had the same problem, where you have to be much more tentative under hard braking to avoid rear lightness or hop. With both of these bikes the performance under power isn't a biggie cause there isn't much. On bikes like this,where you have to carry as much corner speed as possible, fine control of rear braking is extermely important and you are more likely to notice the difference. BTW my race one weighed 108kg wet WITH a race fairing.

 

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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Actually I had another thought on the KTM twin. Part of the throttle problem on the 690 was because it was a single. It multiplied the fuelling problems. A twin may mitigate the no fuel trailing throttle a bit and with smaller cyl would have less no burn drag until it got the new charge.

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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4 hours ago, gregjet said:

Actually I had another thought on the KTM twin. Part of the throttle problem on the 690 was because it was a single. It multiplied the fuelling problems. A twin may mitigate the no fuel trailing throttle a bit and with smaller cyl would have less no burn drag until it got the new charge.

Hopefully they have solved this issue on both, the newer single and the new twin. Nothing worse than fuel injection with poor fueling, I have no issues with my FZ-07 in this regard.

 

I found it interesting that KTM decided to go with a 75* offset crank instead of the more industry normal 90*, I would guess to duplicate the sensation/sound of their 75* V twin but since the review said it was incredibly smooth than I guess that's all that matters.

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I just trimmed the # of bikes I own down to 2, the 07 and the Grom, but I think that this KTM may replace both.

 

I commute, a lot, we are talking 30k+ a year so I will put the miles on the KTM to answer the question of reliability.

 

IMO 100-115hp is all you ever need. Especially on the street. If it wasn't for the stupid amount of freeway, I put that hp# at 50-60. But with TORQUES!!!! ALL THE TORQUES!!!

 

This bike is attractive to me because KTM unlike a lot of other manufactures threw the top notch electronics into a mid sized bike. cornering ABS, wheelie control, traction control and factory QS, HELL YEAH!

 

With the exception of the triumph 765 RS I have not seen a middleweight naked with top of the line electronics.

 

I'm a sucker for a bike ~400 lbs, and that loves to wheelie like a dirt bike and corner like a 600ss. If it can handle the freeway too, I'll pay whatever your asking.

 

I could care less what it looks like or what the dash looks like, If I'm smiling in the helmet, with the front wheel in the air, or hard on the brakes with a knee puck on the ground in a corner of a canyon road, I found my bike.

 

I'm really stoked for this bike, one of the first in a long time that may be a better bike, FOR ME, than the FZ-07. That said, the FZ-07 for me is an ALMOST perfect bike so time will tell.

 

~Pete

 

 

'16 FZ07

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I didn't know the KTM had gone to a 75deg twin config. It is possible the tech came from the research that the italian Husky firm ( which they now own) did to up spec the BMW motor for the Husqvana Nuda which also had a 70 or 75 deg cranked twin...

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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2 hours ago, botticelli said:

 

 

This bike is attractive to me because KTM unlike a lot of other manufactures threw the top notch electronics into a mid sized bike. cornering ABS, wheelie control, traction control and factory QS, HELL YEAH!

 

 

 

 

One of the biggest turn-offs for me in regards to the FZ09 was that it was riddled with electronics. I love the fact that my 07 is very basic, as far as fuel injected vehicles go. I even paid more to buy a non-ABS vs. a very good deal I was offered on a ABS equipped demo bike. 

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3 hours ago, botticelli said:

I'm a sucker for a bike ~400 lbs, and that loves to wheelie like a dirt bike and corner like a 600ss. If it can handle the freeway too, I'll pay whatever your asking

 

It doesn't look too wheelie happy in the reviews I've seen - peak torque & power are made fairly high up in the rev range (for a twin).

 

Early signs from the KTM CEO were that the R model will have 10 more ponies than the base model, I imagine Brembo brakes and adjustable suspension too.

 

Love the idea behind this bike, though the budget model has a premium price tag.

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I really like it and had a chance to sit on it in Dortmund motorshow, but pricing seems to be a bit off for me (at least here in Germany). I can buy for almost the same money an MT09SP, so the dilemma is more to which to moove on from MT07... I like the 2 cilinder engines more than the 3 cilinder, however I have good experience with yamaha. I guess this year I still keep the mt07 and wait for some more reviews on the duke to have the change in 2019.

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8 hours ago, shinyribs said:

One of the biggest turn-offs for me in regards to the FZ09 was that it was riddled with electronics. I love the fact that my 07 is very basic, as far as fuel injected vehicles go. I even paid more to buy a non-ABS vs. a very good deal I was offered on a ABS equipped demo bike. 

Yep, just more to go wrong with a bike.

Beemer

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topazsparrow
8 hours ago, stickshift said:

It doesn't look too wheelie happy in the reviews I've seen - peak torque & power are made fairly high up in the rev range (for a twin).

 

Early signs from the KTM CEO were that the R model will have 10 more ponies than the base model, I imagine Brembo brakes and adjustable suspension too.

 

Love the idea behind this bike, though the budget model has a premium price tag.

Looking at videos of it, it looks like the plastics and overall aesthetics are rather cheap looking as well.

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