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level41

Fz-07 VS Suzuki GSX-R600

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level41

Had the opportunity to race my FZ against a GSX R600 yesterday. I do have about 100cc more, and it made sticking with the 600 so much easier.

The guy had more experience on the tracks than me, and my aim was not to lead, but follow.

 

And following it did just fine.

On the straights, I easily caught up, once the needle passed 6K Rpm, but to give him a fair advantage, and not to wet my own pants, I actually stayed mostly under 6k RPM, as my bike would accelerate about as fast as that Gixxer doing 10k RPM.

 

 In all fairness, we both didn't go all out, but had a blast anyway! 😁

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r1limited

BULL shet

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kbob2000

I have both bikes and this seems very unlikely unless there is something wrong with his bike. I'm not sure it's clear what you were doing. Did you follow him on track or street?

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afatrat

Unless it's from '92 a gixer 6 will eat the 07 up in everything but maybe 1st gear. I am ecstatic, however, to learn that your tach may have seen the north side of 4k. Come to the dark side, level. It's a lot more fun up here.

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gregjet

The gsxr should eat an 07 on a track. That's what it's made for. Hard to beat cyl numbers on a track. Anywhere you can keep the revs up the 4 will win. I suspect even an old GSXR400R will beat the 07 on a track.

Still rather have an 07 on the road though.

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level41

The FZ has more torque than the GSX up until about 10k RPM.
The HP of the GSX is a little higher after 10k rpm, which he didn't do.
So both bikes were quite even.

The Suzuki shines above 10k rpm.

 

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faffi

I honestly thought level41 had managed to pull off a joke for once, but apparently not.

 

At 10k, the little gixxer makes about 80 hp. At 6k, the FZ makes about 50 hp. I could just rest my case here.

2016-yamaha-fz-07-dyno-chart.jpg?itok=y-

 

11ss_suz600.jpg

 

You also have raised the gearing on your FZ, which reduce the available torque at the rear wheel. Stock overall gearing for the lower 3 gears is fairly similar between the two. Basically, shift the 600 at 10k and your 700 at 6 k and you will not see where the Suzuki went. Shift both at 10k and the average power may be similar enough to allow them to stay in vicinity of each other, depending on how low in the rev range you start. Due to lower gearing, the eat the FZ in the upper gears even if the 10k shifting point is retained.

 

Stock gear ratios for the gixxer 600:

Primary reduction ratio 1.974 (77/39) 
Final reduction ratio 2.687 (43/16) 

Gear ratios Low 2.785 (39/14) 
2nd 2.052 (39/19) 
3rd 1.714 (36/21) 
4th 1.500 (36/24) 
5th 1.347 (31/23) 
Top 1.208 (29/24)

 

FZ reductions:

Primary reduction ratio:

1.925 (77/40)

Final drive:

Chain

Secondary reduction ratio:

2.688 (43/16)

Transmission type:

Constant mesh 6-speed

Gear ratio:

1st:

2.846 (37/13)

2nd:

2.125 (34/16)

3rd:

1.632 (31/19)

4th:

1.300 (26/20)

5th:

1.091 (24/22)

6th:

0.964 (27/28)

 

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norcal616

wait a min... a Hordpower FZ-07 puts down 80whp...

 

 

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stickshift

I don't call it racing when a rev limit lower than redline is used... this is not a race.

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level41

@stickshift not every track you can take the bike out to maximum performance. It's just not safe with a stock bike and tires.

 

@afatrat yes, I can see why people like the thrill of speed, and in a controlled environment it's quite safe to do (unlike on the streets).

However, I still decided to go back to my sub 4k Rpm range, and enjoy sipping 80mpg, instead of the average 29 to 32 I was seeing on the track.

I can also see why many people have a hard time going back to enjoying a relaxing ride, and see nature, knowing they can travel cross state on pocket change. So I decided not to do tracks too much anymore, and go smaller.

I started riding because I enjoyed the economic side of things, and for adventure reasons, seeing places.

Not for going on one wheel from one stoplight to the next...

 

Edited by level41

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level41

 

 

@faffi you are correct. However the graph you showed, shows (I think) the Australian FZ's torque and HP curve?

I know my FZ (us model) makes about 77hp at the wheel, which might have to do with the gear change, since it'll increase hp, but lower torque.

 

As far as torque is concerned, if your graph is the right graph for my bike, 20% increase in gearing, results in 20% lower torque, which means my ~45 lb ft of torque, which is almost all available from 3 to 8k RPM, will become 36lb ft, which is what the gsx 600 only starts making at around 8k RPM.

 

Since both bikes are stock (save for my gearing change, which didn't really matter since I could easily downshift to 3rd or 4th), I did have a slight edge, though I can see if he had gone past the 10k RPM mark it would have been a total loss to me (which I didn't know at the time).

To be fair, I did accelerate to 8.5k Rpm on a few occasions since 6 or even 6.6k (where my bike starts running stoic, and thus, a power bump) didn't cut it to stick with him.

 

Edited by level41

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level41

The weight of both bikes are also very close.. I'm surprised, because Suzuki mostly makes heavy bikes. Even their gw250 is heavier than the FZ.

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r1limited

BULL shet
BULL shet
BULL shet
BULL shet
BULL shet


Stick to keeping you chain at 1/4 play

 

Edited by r1limited
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blackout

Anyone else think the FZ07 motor is being choked down a little with only 38mm throttle bodies?  The gsxr 600 gets four throttle bodies of the same size, with each cylinder being much smaller.

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Yury Lo

I ride with a few 2010-2016 R6 and they aren't so hard to keep up with, but are definitely faster after 110mph

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blackout

I think the FZ07 has a lot of usable power, where you need to be more skilled to take advantage of the higher dyno numbers of a 600 i4.

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faffi
8 hours ago, level41 said:

 

 

@faffi you are correct. However the graph you showed, shows (I think) the Australian FZ's torque and HP curve?

I know my FZ (us model) makes about 77hp at the wheel, which might have to do with the gear change, since it'll increase hp, but lower torque.

 

 

 

Cycle World is as American as you get.

 

And why would horsepower go up with altered gearing? Gearing multiply torque, but have no impact on power.

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gregjet

Level41. That is definitely NOT the Aussie mt07 ( that is the designation for the LAMS bike. the lower power one). It produces 48HP max and the torque curve drops off markedly after 7000rpm.

Here is a graph of mine AFTER filter, Akra snail pipe system, stop removal and ECU reflash ( a very early one that is really better suited to the fuill power/dispacment version) and also after the inlet stack opening to the throttle body 41mm.

Our proper MT is model MT07HO ( stuff knows why)

 

"And why would horsepower go up with altered gearing? Gearing multiply torque, but have no impact on power." Whilst that is relatively true , in the real world where air drag is a factor, there is a co-relation between the speed and the engine revs that includes air drag. Having the power in the wrong place as the drag goes up can severly change the speed/ and accelleration curve result.

 

Below is a set of dyno curves for the Aussie MT07 ( ie the depowered version). I bought it because the yamaha people( local, national and the guys supposedly in the know at the Phillip Island MotoGP yamaha stand) LIED to me and said the proper version  WOULD NEVER COME TO AUSTRALIA. A few months later, the proper version turned up. Top is the initial mods not including the stack opening, the second is with the stacks opened from 30 to 41mm and smoothed.

It does not have a dead stock curve both are modded bike.

dyno graph pre and post restrictor removal (1).JPG

Edited by gregjet
missing text

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faffi
15 minutes ago, gregjet said:

 

 

"And why would horsepower go up with altered gearing? Gearing multiply torque, but have no impact on power." Whilst that is relatively true , in the real world where air drag is a factor, there is a co-relation between the speed and the engine revs that includes air drag. Having the power in the wrong place as the drag goes up can severly change the speed/ and accelleration curve result.

 

 

 

Not arguing with that at all, only that you will not suddenly get 10 extra horses at the wheel by altering gearing 😏 But sure, performance will be affected due to the change in rear wheel torque plus, as you say, risk having max power not happening where it gives the maximum top speed.

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gregjet

"Not arguing with that at all, only that you will not suddenly get 10 extra horses at the wheel by altering gearing 😏"

The point I was making is that it can FEEL like you have extra HP. Honda used to overgear , for whatever reason, most of it's bikes . So the bikes often went faster in top gear -1 ( even -2 sometimes). My original SL100 was a perfect example. Gear it down .5 of a ratio from stock and it would not only acc. faster, but had a higher top speed. FELT like it had more HP despite the fact the HP was unaltered.

On that note I feel the 07 is undergeared ( too low) for the road.  Not sure if top speed would benefit ( and don't really care because nowhere around here that you could even attempt top speed and stay on the ground), but would make the bike more flexible.

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shinyribs

The fastest bike around the track is not always the one with the most horsepower. 

 

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r1limited

The shortest stick is always the one that gets made fun of.  I mean the last time I saw a pig with a stick it was putting some woop ass on a three ringed spiny sourkrout.  Man that was one fast pig with a short stick./

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shinyribs

I have no f@#king clue what you're trying to say...

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crsnhppr

With my +2 sprocket 520 drive mods, and ejk and high flow intake I get the same or greater acceleration as 600’s & 750’s up to about 70mph  , starts tailing off after that. They don’t really start making power till later in their rpm’s then they shoot off but in twisty roads I’ve got no problems hanging with liter bikes as my bike has that initial torque to hang or pass even. Depends on the riders either way tho. 

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r1limited
11 hours ago, shinyribs said:

I have no f@#king clue what you're trying to say...

OK I will explain further.

 

Quote

A 54-year survey of 26,285 European Swallows captured and released by the Avian Demography Unit of the University of Capetown finds that the average adult European swallow has a wing length of 12.2 cm and a body mass of 20.3 grams.4

Because wing beat frequency and wing amplitude both scale with body mass,5 and flight kinematic data is available for at least 22 other bird species,6 it should be possible to estimate the frequency (f ) and amplitude (A) of the European Swallow by a comparison with similar species. With those two numbers, it will be possible to estimate airspeed (U).

In order to maintain airspeed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?

Actually, wrong. By comparing the European Swallow with bird species of similar body mass, we can estimate that the swallow beats its wings 18 times a second with an amplitude of 18 cm:

SpeciesBody massFrequencyAmplitude

Zebra Finch13 g27 Hz11 cm

European Swallow20 g≈ 18 Hz?≈ 18 cm?

Downy Woodpecker27 g14 Hz29 cm

Budgerigar34 g14 Hz15 cm


Note that even the tiny Zebra Finch flaps its wings no more than 27 times a second while cruising.

If we ignore body mass and look only at bird species with a similar wingspan, we can estimate an average frequency of 14 beats per second and an amplitude of 23 cm:

SpeciesWingspanFrequencyAmplitude

Budgerigar27 cm14 Hz15 cm

European Swallow≈ 28–30 cm≈ 14 Hz?≈ 23 cm?

Downy Woodpecker31 cm14 Hz29 cm

European Starling35 cm14 Hz26 cm


By averaging all 6 values, we can estimate that an average European Swallow flies at cruising speed with a frequency of roughly 15 beats per second, and an amplitude of roughly 22 cm.

Skip a bit, Brother

Last month’s article on The Strouhal Number in Cruising Flight showed how simplified flight waveforms that graph amplitude versus wavelength can be useful for visualizing the Strouhal ratio (fA/U), a dimensionless parameter that tends to fall in the range of 0.2–0.4 during efficient cruising flight.

For a European Swallow flying with our estimated wingbeat amplitude of 24 cm, the predicted pattern of cruising flight ranges from a Strouhal number (St) of 0.2:

 

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