Body positioning when cornering fast-ish?

[r1limited]

^^ WORD, especially on the FZ,

[faffi]

Regarding the KLR650: Bikes with a lazy geometry and fairly long wheelbase combined with soft suspension and a frame not tremendously stiff do not like quick turning - they wind up like a spring, bounce back and what you feel is instability and insecurity. I've had many such bikes. You can still change direction fairly quickly, but with finesse, not muscle. Even a stock FZ07 will protest with shakes if ridden with force, despite being much more together than a KLR.

 

As to body position, I do not have one. If it feels natural, I may skip my bum slightly to the inside and lean my torso a little forward and to the inside. But that doesn't happen often. Usually I sit bolt upright, balls against the tank (cover). I definitely prefer to crowd the tank when changing directions. Also, I lean out probably 10 times more often than I lean into a corner. Not because it makes for great cornering, but because it allows me to look further around blind corners. 

 

Generally speaking, though, I don't notice much difference with the bike regardless of how I sit. And not just the 07, but every bike I've ridden since 1980. YMMV.

[Beemer]

These bikes are very similar to ours with high handlebars so just watch how they ride. It's like how Faffi described. You can stay upright and let the bike lean rather than hanging off the side and leaning with the bike.

 

 

I hope that helps.

[digitalsteve]

On 12/11/2017 at 2:18 AM, Beemer said:

These bikes are very similar to ours with high handlebars so just watch how they ride. It's like how Faffi described. You can stay upright and let the bike lean rather than hanging off the side and leaning with the bike.

 

 

I hope that helps.

.... ride it like a dirt bike?

[Bigturbomax]

That was a really interesting watch. Kinda gives a different perspective on things. Im slowly finding what i feel comfortable with on this bike. Im just over 1000 miles now and am starting to feel much more fluid with this bike. Loving every mile. Even got some new gloves and heated grips. I refuse to let a mild Texas winter keep me off the bike haha! Rain on the other hand i still dont care for lol. 

[shinyribs]

28 minutes ago, Bigturbomax said:

That was a really interesting watch. Kinda gives a different perspective on things. Im slowly finding what i feel comfortable with on this bike. Im just over 1000 miles now and am starting to feel much more fluid with this bike. Loving every mile. Even got some new gloves and heated grips. I refuse to let a mild Texas winter keep me off the bike haha! Rain on the other hand i still dont care for lol. 

Once you get a good rain suit ( or just rainproof gear in general), riding in the rain becomes a non-issue. Now, if it's a terrible storm with hail and high winds...yeah, I'll hole up somewhere. 

 

I was intimidated by rain when I first started riding in the street, but I knew I would have to get over it if I was gonna ride. You can't control the weather. The next time it rained I went out on the bike afterwards and tested the limits of traction. Surprisingly, it wasn't the slippery mess I expected it to be. 

 

I'll take off for a joyride, rain or shine, and I've found that riding in the rain has a certain relaxing quality to it. It's also a nice feeling of conquering something that once scared you. 

 

It's great to be cautious, but if you ever decide to give it a whirl, you might find you actually enjoy riding in the rain. I know I do. Riding in a lighting storm at night is beautiful. You get a helluva view on a bike that you'll never get behind a windshield. 

[bornagainbiker]

9 hours ago, shinyribs said:

It's great to be cautious, but if you ever decide to give it a whirl, you might find you actually enjoy riding in the rain. I know I do. Riding in a lighting storm at night is beautiful. You get a helluva view on a bike that you'll never get behind a windshield. 

I have no issue with riding in the rain, but riding in an electrical storm--I'll pass LOL.

[Beemer]

10 hours ago, Bigturbomax said:

That was a really interesting watch. Kinda gives a different perspective on things. Im slowly finding what i feel comfortable with on this bike. Im just over 1000 miles now and am starting to feel much more fluid with this bike. Loving every mile. Even got some new gloves and heated grips. I refuse to let a mild Texas winter keep me off the bike haha! Rain on the other hand i still dont care for lol. 

When I lived there I hated the cold rain in the winter. It got to where I missed the seasons and would've rather got snow instead of rain. 

[Beemer]

11 hours ago, digitalsteve said:

.... ride it like a dirt bike?

Now you're getting it!

[digitalsteve]

7 hours ago, Beemer said:

Now you're getting it!

Yep, now I get it. I did it this morning, works a treat... feels very strange though. Not sure how far the bike will crank over doing this, as I basically shift the body slightly away from the corner to stay upright and feel like I'm sitting right over it (like how you corner on a bicycle I guess).

Didn't feel the need to poke the leg out into corners though

[r1limited]

This is Benny

Benny tried a new position

Benny last name is Bailoff

Dont be like Benny

[shinyribs]

5 hours ago, digitalsteve said:

Yep, now I get it. I did it this morning, works a treat... feels very strange though. Not sure how far the bike will crank over doing this, as I basically shift the body slightly away from the corner to stay upright and feel like I'm sitting right over it (like how you corner on a bicycle I guess).

Didn't feel the need to poke the leg out into corners though

I wouldn't recommend leaning your torso in the opposite direction of bike lean. I don't believe it's necessary to hang way off the bike in a corner ( "knee down, brah"), but I would keep my torso in line with the bike. Or neutral, I guess you would call it. 

 

The height of a handlebar on a sumo is not what dictates the necessary riding style for that type of chassis. Many, many bikes ( most, actually) come with upswept bars like ours. You don't see guys on vintage BSA' , modern Bonneville's, cruisers,etc riding sumo style through the curves. Just my $0.02

 

 

The FZ07 is a standard motorcycle with sportbike styling. It's not a 250lb sumo with 12" of ground clearance and 14" of suspension travel with a 36" seat height and high center of gravity. Anyone can do and say as they wish, but I think it's poor advice to suggest an FZ should be ridden like something they definitely are not. 

[digitalsteve]

11 minutes ago, shinyribs said:

I wouldn't recommend leaning your torso in the opposite direction of bike lean. I don't believe it's necessary to hang way off the bike in a corner ( "knee down, brah"), but I would keep my torso in line with the bike. Or neutral, I guess you would call it. 

 

The height of a handlebar on a sumo is not what dictates the necessary riding style for that type of chassis. Many, many bikes ( most, actually) come with upswept bars like ours. You don't see guys on vintage BSA' , modern Bonneville's, cruisers,etc riding sumo style through the curves. Just my $0.02

 

 

The FZ07 is a standard motorcycle with sportbike styling. It's not a 250lb sumo with 12" of ground clearance and 14" of suspension travel with a 36" seat height and high center of gravity. Anyone can do and say as they wish, but I think it's poor advice to suggest an FZ should be ridden like something they definitely are not. 

Most likely why some of it felt weird.

I'll incorporate the "new" style whilst still having some natural body lean.... I CBF'd trying to lay the bike over more or hang off it any more.

I'll just live with chicken strips.

[shinyribs]

9 minutes ago, digitalsteve said:

Most likely why some of it felt weird.

I'll incorporate the "new" style whilst still having some natural body lean.... I CBF'd trying to lay the bike over more or hang off it any more.

I'll just live with chicken strips.

If you are riding inside your comfort zone and having fun, you are doing it right. Chicken strips don't matter none.   

[Beemer]

16 hours ago, digitalsteve said:

Yep, now I get it. I did it this morning, works a treat... feels very strange though. Not sure how far the bike will crank over doing this, as I basically shift the body slightly away from the corner to stay upright and feel like I'm sitting right over it (like how you corner on a bicycle I guess).

Didn't feel the need to poke the leg out into corners though

Ha, Yes, I can see where it may look a little funny to someone not familiar with dirt riding but there's a good reason for it, to help keep your bike upright when your rear tire suddenly loses traction. I only do that if I actually see something in a corner that I think may cause the tire to slide out. I'll throw the leg out in preparation and cross my fingers I don't have to slam my foot down (it can hurt a bit doing it on hard pavement) and have to use all my leg strength to hold the bike up while the rear tire is way out in BFE. Then you have to use proper throttle control to ease the rear tire back to normal. It's not a fun experience doing it on the road but it can possibly save you and your bike. It has me and mine in the past. It even happened once because a tube tire blew out and the side walls were sh*t, the rear tire went nuts and I wasn't even in a turn but yet the rear tire kicked way out and it would've got away from me hadn't I slammed my foot down and held the bike up. That foot slam came directly off the peg that time. That scared the bejebus out of me it was so violent when it whipped left to right several times!

[Beemer]

"I think it's poor advice to suggest an FZ should be ridden like something they definitely are not."

 

Hate to go there but I've been called out. I've been leaning that way on/off for 45 years and have dirt bike riding friends that lean the same way on bikes similar  (SR500 for example) to the FZ-07 and none of us have ever had an accident or anything go wrong on the street because we leaned the opposite way that super sport riders ride. You don't loose traction because of it, you're well balanced so what's the problem with it? Nor have I ever heard of anyone having an accident because they leaned that way and I definitely can't find any data that shows leaning that way is dangerous, ill advised or impractical. The moral: Don't be afraid of what you don't understand.

 

[r1limited]

58 minutes ago, Beemer said:

"I think it's poor advice to suggest an FZ should be ridden like something they definitely are not."

 

Hate to go there but I've been called out. I've been leaning that way on/off for 45 years and have dirt bike riding friends that lean the same way on bikes similar  (SR500 for example) to the FZ-07 and none of us have ever had an accident or anything go wrong on the street because we leaned the opposite way that super sport riders ride. You don't loose traction because of it, you're well balanced so what's the problem with it? Nor have I ever heard of anyone having an accident because they leaned that way and I definitely can't find any data that shows leaning that way is dangerous, ill advised or impractical. The moral: Don't be afraid of what you don't understand.

 

I have read some very bad advise and very good advise ^^ That was great Advise, those giving bad advise simply have no clue, period end of story.  The best advise is to ride within your comfort zone, as there is no right or wrong answer just bad advise.  Let Me Explain  Much of our advise is simply personal and only with the experience we have either self taught, read a book, raced and or trained aka supercamps, rich olivers etc with race time seat time etc etc etc.  What we forget is we develop our own skills, styles that fit our "LEARNED" see "self taught, read a book, raced and or trained aka supercamps, rich olivers etc with race time seat time etc etc etc."

The best teacher is experience and experience comes from seat time PERIOD and applying techniques you incorporate into your own style by "self taught, read a book, raced and or trained aka supercamps, rich Olivers etc with race time seat time etc etc etc..  A street bike like the MT/FZ07 over a R1 type or Superbike, is comparing apples to oranges.  As an example I ride the R1 with a differing style but I as well will adjust that style to suite speed and aggressiveness.  Same with my MT/FZ07, my style there is to stay centered on the bike and lean the bike, depending on speed and aggressiveness.  But Again, my personal developed style comes from Road Racing, Dirt tracking and Cross Country and many, many, many hours in the saddle in all sorts of weather just cow trailing with buddies.  To the NewB, my advise has always been get a dirt bike and learn to ride the SHET out of it in all kinds of weather.  Get in Empty Parking lots "Make Sure oyu lay out a Clean Path of Debris" practice low speed handling,m turning, figure eights, sitting on top of the bike pushing down and lifting up on the bars.  Learn how the bike reacts when you weight the outside peg Etc etc etc.  And stop listening to dumb asses, and that can very well be me, I doubt it but hey it could happen

[shinyribs]

Motorcycles lean to turn when you shift their center of gravity/balance. This is why counter steering works. 

 

Can we all agree counter steering works? I believe so 

 

If counter steering and it's effects are real, then what logic are we using to lean our body on the opposite direction of bike lean? Strictly speaking of cornering at speed on pavement with a FZ, not dirt riding it parking lot maneuvers. What makes you think you need to counter steer in order to lean the bike in one direction, while simultaneously leaning your body in the other direction... intentionally battling the leaning forces you began in the first place? That idea is the definition of contradiction in itself. It's like riding with a passenger who is leaning opposite of the operator. It's just wrong. 

 

This is the science of gravity and gyroscopic forces. Not opinion. 

 

Like said, anyone can do as they wish. Just don't get all militant when your advice clashes with science. 

 

Nobody called anybody out. People have the right to disagree and offer their differing opinions if they truly feel someone is being misled. If your opinions clash with immovable, unchangeable forces such as gravity.... Well...

 

And yes, a foot on the pavement can keep your from dropping a bike that is falling over. No argument there. But that's not what the topic was about anyway. 

 

I've said my worthless piece. What anyone says with it is up to them. I have no delusions or desires of "winning" an Internet argument. Peace out. Ride safe. Think for yourself. 

 

p.s. - if your "style" of riding on the street finds you often slamming your feet in to the road, you may want to not only reconsider if what you think is correct, but also decide if you should be advising a rider who asking for pointers to follow you down that same foot stomping path. 

 

[Beemer]

50 minutes ago, r1limited said:

I have read some very bad advise and very good advise ^^ That was great Advise, those giving bad advise simply have no clue, period end of story.  The best advise is to ride within your comfort zone, as there is no right or wrong answer just bad advise.  Let Me Explain  Much of our advise is simply personal and only with the experience we have either self taught, read a book, raced and or trained aka supercamps, rich olivers etc with race time seat time etc etc etc.  What we forget is we develop our own skills, styles that fit our "LEARNED" see "self taught, read a book, raced and or trained aka supercamps, rich olivers etc with race time seat time etc etc etc."

The best teacher is experience and experience comes from seat time PERIOD and applying techniques you incorporate into your own style by "self taught, read a book, raced and or trained aka supercamps, rich Olivers etc with race time seat time etc etc etc..  A street bike like the MT/FZ07 over a R1 type or Superbike, is comparing apples to oranges.  As an example I ride the R1 with a differing style but I as well will adjust that style to suite speed and aggressiveness.  Same with my MT/FZ07, my style there is to stay centered on the bike and lean the bike, depending on speed and aggressiveness.  But Again, my personal developed style comes from Road Racing, Dirt tracking and Cross Country and many, many, many hours in the saddle in all sorts of weather just cow trailing with buddies.  To the NewB, my advise has always been get a dirt bike and learn to ride the SHET out of it in all kinds of weather.  Get in Empty Parking lots "Make Sure oyu lay out a Clean Path of Debris" practice low speed handling,m turning, figure eights, sitting on top of the bike pushing down and lifting up on the bars.  Learn how the bike reacts when you weight the outside peg Etc etc etc.  And stop listening to dumb asses, and that can very well be me, I doubt it but hey it could happen

Well, I'm sure it took awhile for many people to accept the unorthodox way Rossi would make his rear tire slide so that he could enter a corner faster. I'm confident many thought to themselves when they saw him do it for the first time, "WTF was that? That's not right! That's not normal!" They said the same stuff about King Kenny but they eventually caught on. BTW, we all are dumb-asses at least once in our lives to remind us we are human. yeah, some more than others but that's the spice I guess.

[Beemer]

shinyribs - I say this without malice. I didn't say anything that would imply I got militant, no need for labeling. I don't know what else to say. I can't make you open your eyes and mind to the video or anything I've said. It's obvious I'm spinning my wheels so believe your science if that's your choice while me and many others go on riding this way without incident. Have a great day and stay frosty! 

[r1limited]

1 hour ago, Beemer said:

Well, I'm sure it took awhile for many people to accept the unorthodox way Rossi would make his rear tire slide so that he could enter a corner faster. I'm confident many thought to themselves when they saw him do it for the first time, "WTF was that? That's not right! That's not normal!" They said the same stuff about King Kenny but they eventually caught on. BTW, we all are dumb-asses at least once in our lives to remind us we are human. yeah, some more than others but that's the spice I guess.

Actually it was Roberts who introduced backing it in, Rossi was sticking his foot out like a rudder

[faffi]

I thought Spencer was the first to slide the front wheel and then, just before he'd crash, open the throttle to put the load on the rear wheel to regain control. Repeatedly. Deliberately. But DuHamel did it a decade before I learned Spencer did it in 500GP. Somebody asked DuHamel how he could be so fast through a section at some American road race track. DuHamel replied that he just slid the front before saving the imminent crash with the throttle, finishing with "doesn't everybody?". In other words, there are more than one way to ride a motorcycle.

 

German MOTORRAD magazine compared several bikes using 3 different cornering styles; bolt upright, leaning out and hanging off. Hanging off would give you about 2-3 degrees "free" lean compared to sitting up, so nothing dramatic. In other words, it is of no use to gain speed until you start running out of cornering clearance. Unless it makes you feel more confident, of course. Confidence is important. BTW, with a motard, the bike leaned over 46 degrees with the rider hanging off and a massive 57 degrees with the rider pushing the bike down while leaning out. Speed was identical as was the combined lean of 51 degrees.

 

Here is my abbreviated translation of the article

 

Who leans that far? Where are the limits? And what are the differences between street bikes? We compare bikes around a skid pad: Supermoto, Naked Bike, Cruiser und Superbike. We have also discused with experts and tried qualifying tyres from WSBK to see how they differ from street legal sport tyres.

 

Why do we lean?

Without lean to counter the centrifugal forces, the bikes would simply fall over. Leaning against the forces the correct amount keeps the machine and rider in balance. For a given radius, the faster one rides, the more one must lean. Or for a given speed, the smaller the radius, the more one must lean.

 

How far can we lean?

Sport bikes are generally limited by grip, or friction. With good tyres on a good road we typically have a friction quotient of one µ.

This means we can theoretically lean 45 degrees. If you lean further, or you try to slow down or accelerate, you will slide. However, we know it is possible to achieve greater angles of lean. How? Because very grippy tyres and a grainy road surface can interact like gears. That’s why in MotoP and WSBK we can now see bike lean angles as high as 62 degrees. With the rider hanging off we can even see combined lean angles beyond that. What is that- different lean values?

Corner master Jorge Lorenzo show us the difference between bike lean and the third lean.

 

Lean angle isn’t always lean angle

Basically, we talk about three lean angles. The first one is the effective lean angle. This is a theoretical value and is calculated from the speed and the radius of the corner. This counts for every bike and every rider. But this theoretical value for effective lean angle is based upon infinitely narrow tyres. Now to reality. Imagine watching a vertical bike from behind. Pull a vertical line through the bike’s centre line, the tyre and to the ground. This is where the contact point is as well as the CoG. Now place the bike on its kickstand. Now we see that the contact point between tyre and road has moved to the side somewhat because the tyres are not infinitely narrow. The more we lean the bike, the further away we move the contact point away from the bike’s centre line. If we draw a line through the CoG and both the centre line as well as down to the contact patch, we create a triangle. The angle between them is the second lean. This is the added lean required to corner at the same speed as you would have been with infinitely narrow tyres. This also show that wider tyres require more lean narrower tyres.

 

Lorenzo shows us the difference between the bike’s lean and the third lean. With his extreme hanging off the rider is leaned over far more than the bike. The combination of the two - bike and rider - gives the third angle of lean, the combined lean. Bei 62 degree bike lean we can get to an extreme combined value of 66 degrees.

 

What can production bikes muster?

We take 4 different bikes and try them on the skid pad sitting in line with the bike, pushing the bike down and hanging off. We then measure bike lean, calculate combined lean and measure cornering speed. What gives the greatest speed?

 

Lean angle with the Husqvarna 701

The skid pad has a diameter of 55 metres. Upright lean is 47 degrees, speed 57 kph. In typical sumo-style, pushing the bike down while leaning out, we managed 57 degrees bike lean and a speed of 62 kph. The combined lean is 51 degrees. This is the biggest difference in the test (6 degrees), a result of a light bike, high CoG, high and wide bars, narrow seat, low set pegs.

Final attempt is hanging off, and we get the exact same values of 62 kph and 51 degrees combined lean. The bike is only leaning 46 degrees. So the speed is the same, but pushing the bike down sumo-style bring some advantages; more bike control and easier to catch slides being the predominant.

 

Ducati Diavel, Cruiser & Co.

Unlike for sport bikes, cruisers are limited by dragging parts when it comes to possible lean angles. With 41 degrees, the pegs are in contact with the asphalt. This will be the same regardless of what style is used. This gives us a fantastic opportunity to compare cornering speeds between the various riding styles. Sitting up gives 50 kph, pushing down 47 kph and hanging off 53 kph.

 

MotoGP bikes can actually accelerate harder when leaned over than in a straight line. While maximum acceleration on level ground is limited to about 1g, a MotoGP bike can accelerate at 1.2g when leaned over 45 degrees! For street bikes on public roads, 45 degrees means zeron grip left for acceleration. A modern street legal sport bike outfitted with racing tyre and circulating on a grippy race track can give up to 1g of acceleration when leaned over at 40 degrees.

 

Cornering with the Honda Fireblade

First we ride on the stock Bridgestone S20 “G” tyres. Hanging off gives 61 kph and 48 degrees of lean for the bike, combined 51 degrees.

 

What difference does qualifying tyres make?

WSBK Q-tyre, straight from the heaters, has tremendous grip and feedback. We do not give up until the Fireblade gets “floaty”, a sign we are nearing the limit. With the bike leaned over 53 degrees we reached 65 kph. Combined lean is 55 degrees with the rider hanging off. Why not faster? The asphalt was cold (less than 10C / 50F) and the asphalt not overly grippy. Add a slight negative camber and the limits were like that. But this was the same for all tyres. The problem for the Q-rubber was that they lost their heat rapidly, losing grip in the process.

 

A Pirelli-technician explained that the racers don’t lean further on Qs, but they have more grip available for braking and acceleration. Enough to give about a second lower lap times. Two laps, though, and they are mostly gone.

 

Cornering with the BMW S 1000 R

Standard Pirelli Diablo Rosso Corsa allowed 59 km/h when hanging off, with 47 degree bike lean and 50 Grad combined lean was good, but better results were limited by grinding foot peg feelers and gear shift lever.

 

Husqvarna Supermoto 701

Sitting straight made the rider feel uneasy, which limited lean and cornering speed.

 

The Sumo-Stil made the rider feel at most comfortable. Sliding tyres and grinding parts set the limit.

 

If the rider had been able to hang as well off as he was at pushing the bike down, he could have cornered faster.

 

Tyre width and CoG

Wider tyres demand more lean for any given corner speed. The same goes for lower CoG. The difference between the tall Husky 701 with relatively narrow tyres and the low Diavel with its ultra-wide tyres was 3 degrees when doing 50 kph around the skid pad; 38 for the 701 and 41 for the Diavel.

 

Lateral acceleration and lean

While 45 degrees of lean gives 1g, 60 degrees give 1.7g, which isn’t the same as going 1.7 times faster by any means.

 

Lean and speed

The Fireblade on WSBK Q-tyres managed 55 degrees of lean and 65 kph. If we theoretically put Marquez on the same skidpad with a combined lean of 66 degrees, he would have circulated at 78 kph.

[shinyribs]

2 hours ago, Beemer said:

Well, I'm sure it took awhile for many people to accept the unorthodox way Rossi would make his rear tire slide so that he could enter a corner faster. I'm confident many thought to themselves when they saw him do it for the first time, "WTF was that? That's not right! That's not normal!" They said the same stuff about King Kenny but they eventually caught on. BTW, we all are dumb-asses at least once in our lives to remind us we are human. yeah, some more than others but that's the spice I guess.

I think you're finally getting the point. Do you think teaching beginners to drift corners is smart? Do you think experienced riders should be preparing to drift every corner? 

 

 

Nobody ever said it was impossible. The point is, it's extremely unnecessary on the street and not a way to advise someone to ride when they're asking for basic advice. 

 

Nobody really gives a f@#k what Rossi is doing at wot on a closed course. 

[faffi]

4 minutes ago, shinyribs said:

 

 

Nobody really gives a f@#k what Rossi is doing at wot on a closed course. 

I do. I find it fascinating, even I will never be able to replicate.

[r1limited]

4 minutes ago, faffi said:

I do. I find it fascinating, even I will never be able to replicate.

It is amazing to me what these aliens do, its equally amazing how butt hurt and defensive people get