Rear wheel howl

[rick]

That's quite a sound, the clacking in that vid. Not sure I would have ridden with it making that noise.
 
Nothing is turning inside the axle. I can see that rod bouncing up and down at speed, but now I also am not seeing why it could be responsible for that clacking sound as you just turn the wheel.
 
Did it make the same sound if you turned the wheel forward?
 
You'd need a totally broken wheel bearing for it to make that noise and the wheel would wobble all over the place.
 
Are you still on the OE chain and front sprocket?
 

[shinyribs]

The caliper is off in that video, so that rules out anything brake related.
 
I couldn't see well enough to make out how you were supporting the bike, but some of those clamp on spool holders look like they could easily move out of position.
 
Any sprocket bolts/nuts backing out?

[shinyribs]

Seems like the sound is perfectly timed to match when the rotor bolts are passing the caliper mount. Sure they're not dragging? Perhaps some wheel spacers got mixed up?

[noodles]

In the video the caliper was off completely but the slot it mounts to was not - and it was resting on the center stand, not a spool or paddock stand.
 
After I removed the slider bar I removed the wheel and then replaced it. After replacing it, the noise was gone, so I thought I'd found the problem. The noise occurred again today. I'll have to hunt for an alternate cause then. My guess is the rear wheel bearings need replacing. If that's not it, well, I'm out of ideas. What else could cause that kind of noise at speed if not axle, brake, or bearing? The wheels are both balanced w/ weights, and steering/stability wasn't affected. Just a loud noise that comes and goes seemingly at random but only occurs over 65 mph, especially when I hit the gas to accelerate. I won't be taking a highway home tonight and the bike will be sitting on her center stand until I get the bearings in
 

Did it make the same sound if you turned the wheel forward?  
You'd need a totally broken wheel bearing for it to make that noise and the wheel would wobble all over the place.
 
Are you still on the OE chain and front sprocket?

1. Yes
2. Yes
 
And again that sound disappeared entirely upon reinstallation of the wheel so I thought it was fine, and there was no side-to-side play in the wheel at all when I checked.

[shinyribs]

Have you done the standard test for a stretched chain? Pull on the chain at the rearmost area of the rear sprocket and see if it pulls away?
 
Do your sprocket teeth look ok?
 
Chain sliders/rollers ok?
 
Where did you get the center? Any issues with it dragging while cornering?

[noodles]

Have you done the standard test for a stretched chain? Pull on the chain at the rearmost area of the rear sprocket and see if it pulls away?  
Do your sprocket teeth look ok?
 
Chain sliders/rollers ok?
 
Where did you get the center? Any issues with it dragging while cornering?

1. Yeah the chain is getting worn but its fine for a few thousand miles yet. Tension ok. Doesn't pull from sprocket. Would a chain make that noise? It's not rattle-like at speed it's a distinct howl noise. 2. Sprockets look fine for now will need replacing this coming spring. 17,000 miles on bike.
3. Rollers are shiny but fine. Could use a cleaning.
4. SW-MOTECH, only issue is if I take a pillion because ride height is too low for lack of enough preload.
 
TBH I have to replace the tires before this season ends so I may as well replace bearings while I'm at it.
 
I keep forgetting I have recordings and such. Here's a short clip from a commute to work. You'll see I'm not cornering, I'm not changing speed, and I'm not hitting the brakes. The sound appears then goes. I think it's a bad bearing. So I'll take it easy coming home and my machine will sit until I replace the bearings.
 
[video size=large]

[ralph]

Havent read all the thread so it may have been asked but have you tried spinning the wheel without the chain on the sprocket.

[ralph]

Just listened to the last clip, could one of the bearings cage have broken?
 

[noodles]

Havent read all the thread so it may have been asked but have you tried spinning the wheel without the chain on the sprocket.

Yeah, no noise. Slight rub heard w/o chain or brake caliper but no side to side play in the hub so I thought it was acceptable. Now I'm thinking maybe not so much. Plan is to replace bearings and check for wear on old ones while I'm at it. I hope to see something knackered otherwise I'm out of ideas for what could be causing it. 
While I'm at it I think it would make a nice how-to thread if there isn't one already!

[rick]

Hmm, you had me until that video. lol
 
I've watched it over and over and just don't understand why/how that alloy rod would cause that knocking sound just by turning the wheel. Even if it was just sitting in there loose as a goose, I don't see it making any sound at all with just turning the wheel. Why would it?
 
I'm happy to get 15 to 20k miles from a really good quality DID chain. 18k miles is a long way for any OE chain. So before touching any wheel bearings (that should live a long, long time unless you love your pressure washer or like riding thru streams) - BTW, you'll need a puller like https://www.amazon.com/Pit-Posse-Motorcycle-Separator-Extractor/dp/B005SUVQUK to get those bearings out - I would have a look at the front sprocket to see if the teeth are hooked.
 
but why the noise quite after pulling that rod - well, if it's not the chain, just don't know, but maybe dropping the bike had something to do with it.
 
Also, I've not looked to see how this bike is built back there, but the back sprocket is usually bolted to a hub that slides into a corresponding set of cush rubbers inside of the wheel's hub. These blocks of rubber soak up vibration and smooth out impacts from the chain. Might be worth a look. You can usually just grab the sprocket and pull/wiggle it out and away from the wheel w/o touching the mount bolts.

[rick]

Just watched the second vid - yeah, that's pretty weird. Have no idea how that translated to loud knocking sounds by just turning the wheel.

[rick]

Havent read all the thread so it may have been asked but have you tried spinning the wheel without the chain on the sprocket.

Yeah, no noise. Slight rub heard w/o chain or brake caliper but no side to side play in the hub so I thought it was acceptable. Now I'm thinking maybe not so much. Plan is to replace bearings and check for wear on old ones while I'm at it. I hope to see something knackered otherwise I'm out of ideas for what could be causing it. 
While I'm at it I think it would make a nice how-to thread if there isn't one already!

As the inside races get used to punch those bearings out, it's kinda hard to remove 'em w/o doing them harm. Even if you tear into them on the bench, seeing the inside races might be misleading. But if an inner race comes out and leaves the outer race behind, well, that bearing was toast.  
With the wheel off, just use a finger to turn the inner race on both sides. If they feel smooth when turned, I'd not bother. There's likely a 3rd wheel bearing that can't be seen until you pull the sprocket /carrier. 
 

[markstertt]

I'm kind of lost here, the axle is static, the slider rod and sliders are static inside the axle...no relative motion anywhere between the two. The grease on the exterior of the axle reduces any wear in a case where the bearing inner race may creep and may reduce potential corrosion but that's it. So help me understand what you think you found because I'm not seeing your initial problem being solved...Mark

Ever go to pull an axle out of a wheel to find it rusted solid to the inner races of the bearings? - and I do mean solid to the point that pounding with a hammer didn't work and the axle had to be cut thru both spacers. Been there, done that with a friend's dual purpose Honda long time ago.  
Dat's what the grease is for. And yeah, it doesn't go anywhere or really satisfy a need for lubrication, but w/o, it can be (and was) a nightmare. And it may as well be cleaned and regreased every time the axle is pulled - every manual will tell you this. If only every factory was as good as their service manuals during initial build..
 
The axle's not any more static than the back wheel - especially with that OE shock, erm, controlling it. Yeah, seems a bit nuts, but there's lots of room inside the hole thru the axle for that alloy rod to bounce around. A rough road at a fairly high speed, with that alloy rod just floating in there, get the axle moving up/down at just the right frequency - guess it could start vibrating enough to make some noise. That the noise kicked up all of a sudden and quit just as quickly suggests something goofy just like that.
 
Besides, have a look at that nice gold anodized rod - it's all banged up. I'll pull mine over the weekend and take a pict. It won't look anything like that 
 
Crazy enough, but if his problem doesn't come back and that was the only thing found suspicious - yep, stranger than truth. Time will tell. 
 
Of course - the control experiment is to put the rod back in and go find that same stretch of road at 70mph and see if the noise comes back. It's the scientist in me. 
 
 
 
 

Geesh rick, I'm a retired aircraft mechanic (fixed wing & rotary,32 yrs.) who's been riding for 51 yrs. and have had some of my bikes for 50 yrs....I think I know what grease is for and yes, the rear axle is static as is that clunky slider rod and going by the posters initial description of a very loud howl with the smell of brake pads is why I said what I said. Now the sprocket carrier has a single deep groove ball bearing with a hat section reducer pressed in it's center stacked up against the left wheel bearings center race followed by a spacer tube and the right side wheel bearing. I could see a dry or failing wheel bearing howling or seizing to the point that the inner race spins on the axle but then this should be seen on the axle and of course, not smell like brakes. The outer racer could also spin in the hub and then (temporarily?) quit when it friction welds itself to the hub. The sprocket carrier bearing could fail but a lot of speculation and with the original data suspect to me and the assumption of the slider and it's rod causing the symptoms described...well then I'll just have to leave it up to the owner doing a good disassembly and inspection. I will say that I found my left side wheel bearing (not sprocket carrier) slightly askew in it's bore causing the sprocket carrier to wobble about .025"... anything's possible with a low cost mass produced machine. Time to look... 
 
 
 
 

[rick]

Well, you've done more wrenching over our decades than me for sure. Been playing with tools since I was a kid in my father's machine shop (could even arc weld a lifetime ago), but real work for the last 43 years has me playing with biochemicals more than tools - Looking forward to retiring as well come next July.
 
I'm now completely with you on that slider rod. With the bike sitting still on a centerstand and the wheel turning, that clacking sound wasn't coming from that little alloy post. No way. Pulling it out and having the noise quit - well something else changed as well.
 
Yep, this will be interesting

[noodles]

So what am I to do now, O Great Forum Gurus?
 
My plan was to pull the wheel again and feel the bearings inside - which I did not do.
 
The chain and rear sprocket - while worn but not worn out - don't seem to be likely candidates for the source of that intermittent noise. The pitch and volume combined with the lack of noise at lower speeds lead me to believe it is a bearing issue. The rotors, brake pads, calipers, rotor bolts, spacers/collars, even wheel runout all look fine to me. And again today with the rear wheel elevated with bike on center stand there's no noise from spinning the rear wheel in either direction other than slight brake pad noise (sounds normal to me) and clacking of the chain (sounds normal to me too).
 
I'm thinking sprocket carrier bearing but I've ordered a set for the whole wheel. May as well. Again my tires are worn out this coming week anyway (almost at the wear bars) so if I'm going to pull the wheels to change the tires I may as well replace the bearings since they feel suspect. Also, yes, I know they are sealed bearings and when I said "check" them I mean after they are removed for replacement. If there's an obvious issue visible upon removal I will feel more confident that I have found the source.
 
Finally, I should say I did drive home safely - set GPS to no freeways so speed would not exceed 50mph - and I didn't hear a peep.

[markstertt]

You're right about the chain/sprocket...not likely with reported symptoms. Like rick said, to get the bearings out you may cause some damage not originally there so try and determine if they are bad in place. Remember what I said about my rear wheel, the left bearing was factory pressed in slightly askew causing a slight wobble in my sprocket carrier. Chucking the carrier up in the lathe proved that it wasn't my problem. I ended up tapping in one side of the inner left wheel bearing outer race (the high side) until the wobble was gone. Just saying that anything in the wheel is suspect and I would have thought the factory would have been a bit more accurate but it is what it is. It's also possible that the bore in my hub is a bit loose for an interference fit and made it possible for the bearing to not help align itself.
 
One clue has me wondering...what did you actually smell? Probably wouldn't smell a bad bearing, especially one that 'intermittently' howls. Any thoughts? I still haven't signed off on the brakes just yet but hard to tell without being there.
 
Wouldn't a main stand be nice for working on the rear? Ah, progress. Good luck!

[rick]

Didn't notice you mentioning this - have you added stick-on wheel weights at any point (I'm assuming yer not still on the OE tires ) and if so, have any fallen off?
 
One of the few things I find bit ugly on this bike is how the rear hub is slotted/cut away. I guess they do it to cut a bit of weight. Anyhow, those slots in the hub also provide a nice place for something like a wheel weight to fall into, make a racket for a bit, and then fall out when yer not looking. Just a thought.
 
The bearings will have dust seals, but there are also external individual seals outside of the bearings. You might be able to pry them out w/o harm, but if you go to the trouble of replacing the bearings, you might as well do those seals as well. They should be pretty cheap.

[rick]

And yeah, this is the 1st motorcycle I've owned in 47 years w/o a center stand. My 1st bike didn't have a side stand - only a center stand They sure do make life easier when it comes to this sort of stuff,

[markstertt]

Noodles, have you actually grabbed the sprocket/chain carrier assembly to see if it has any free play, either in or out or back and forth? It shouldn't have any detectable by hand.
 
Enough guys mentioned the brake assy. on the rear and you mentioned the smell of brake pads....I hope we're not getting side tracked with bearings but that clunking sound in the video is a head scratcher. Can't you tell which side of the wheel the sound is coming from? That should help narrow it down.
 
 

[norcal616]

are the pad "clip shims" still in place?

[noodles]

One clue has me wondering...what did you actually smell? Probably wouldn't smell a bad bearing, especially one that 'intermittently' howls. Any thoughts? I still haven't signed off on the brakes just yet but hard to tell without being there.

 
Well, it was on the freeway, and there are a lot of trucks... You know how you approach a slowdown and you can smell the heavy brake usage. Maybe it was that, I don't know how to account for it. When I'd first stopped from the noise, I continued and did not smell it again, but obviously the noise did repeat.
 
Yeah the pads all have shims. I disassembled the brakes front and rear and they looked fine.
 
Yes I balanced both wheels with stick on weights but they are held together with foam and adhesive so if one fell they would all fall off. They are in place.
 
I hadn't thought to feel for free play in the sprocket carrier assembly. Not entirely sure how to do this but I have taken the carrier off before. I will have a look at it when I pull the wheel.

[rick]

Yeah, it was that clacking sound when turning the wheel backward(or forward) that's now gone that's gonna be hard to explain. Still have to wonder if something fell into the hub and then fell out - Lose any sockets recently? lol.
 
You've pulled the whole carrier out and exposed the cush rubbers or just undid the bolts and removed the sprocket? That hub should be pretty snug and you shouldn't be able to turn the sprocket at all. Hard to imagine those rubber bumpers getting worn out in 18k miles, but stranger things have happened I guess. It should take some pulling to separate that carrier from the main hub as those internals will have a nice friction fit.
 
have a friend with a 2006 Ninja 250R. Its rear wheel bearings (the OE bearings were open bearings and had no dust shields) were toasted at about 35k miles and when I pulled the wheel to get at the bearings, the sprocket carrier just fell out on its own. WTF! To save her a few bucks on a bike that's gonna explode some day (it went 36k miles w/o a valve inspection - they were all crazy tight), i shimmed the bumpers with some flat bits of polypropylene. Not perfect, but the thing might only make 20hp at this point
 
 

[markstertt]

Rick, sprocket carrier pops off this bike real easy and the clacking sound was something timed to the rotation and should be fairly easy to find the cause of in person, easy to say I know and why I don't like to speculate to much because you never know what clues you may find in person.
 
Noodles, just grab the sprocket and jerk it around...shouldn't feel any relative movement between carrier and wheel. You'd be surprised what you can find with a little judicious man handling. I've got a bunch of scary stories I could tell you on potentially fatal accidents waiting to happen that were found just by pulling, pushing and wiggling aircraft components. New mechanics need to use their sense of feel and understanding of a components design and intended purpose to be able to form an opinion and say, 'Hey, this doesn't feel right!' The carrier bearing will exhibit some free play when the unit is removed from the wheel but so did the new one I replaced it with. That bearing on mine was made in Korea, not that there is anything wrong with that!
 
That clacking sound on the video really has me wondering and definitely shouldn't be there, esp. considering the brake caliper was removed in that video and assuming both wheel spacers were installed and the wheel was torqued up correctly and the brake stay was correctly located on it's swing arm anchor...doesn't leave much to clack in what sounded like a consistent rhythm...as some one else mentioned, it would be nice to spin the wheel with the chain off as well as the caliper. It's not unheard of to have a loose c/s/sprocket nut that may clack but that's an easy check and your eyes and ears should eliminate that real quick...good luck.
 

[rick]

Did you ever use a clothes pin to clamp a baseball card to the fork on a bicycle so it would clatter in the spokes - OK, showing my age, but that vid sorta reminded me of that.
 
Unfortunately, that noise went away after the slider rod was pulled - which of course has to be a coincidence cause that made no sense at all. lol.
 
I would definitely pull that front sprocket cover to have a look.

[markstertt]

Did you ever use a clothes pin to clamp a baseball card to the fork on a bicycle so it would clatter in the spokes - OK, showing my age, but that vid sorta reminded me of that. 
Unfortunately, that noise went away after the slider rod was pulled - which of course has to be a coincidence cause that made no sense at all. lol.
 
I would definitely pull that front sprocket cover to have a look.

Me too, with his mileage it wouldn't hurt to clean it out if he hasn't before. 
I just went out to the garage to look at my rear wheel, in case something came to mind, and had to turn around and come right back in...107*F...very unusual for the SF Bay area and I can't handle that heat anymore.
 
Card in spokes, sure but my favorite is what my dad used to do on his flat head Fords...pour a little Castrol oil in the spark plug recesses...I still add a shot to bikes and lawn mower gas to get that wonderful smell, brings back memories of going to races in them olden days.