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markstertt

clunky shifting? clutch pack replacement experiment

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markstertt
There have been a few posts in regards to clunky shifting or at least clunky from neutral into first, first shift from cold especially and I found that pulling in the clutch and blipping the throttle a few times  made that first shift from neutral into first much nicer...a lot like breaking the clutch free before starting on an old Brit bike. So this leads me to believe that there's some drag in the clutch pack and since the OP believed in extended oil drains (3500 miles) I decided on starting over with a new clutch pack as an experiment.
 
 
Installation was pretty straight forward (without the water pump it would be dirt simple) and the old plates looked fine and there was no notching of the basket at around 8500 miles. I was kind of surprised at how little oil was actually on the whole assy. Anyway, just for grins I soaked the new plates in some Amsoil 10-40 Metric bike oil, (not required that I know of) and reinstalled the new friction and plain plates and the new springs.
 
 
I was planning to change the oil to Amsoil Metric  but since I had only about 750 miles on Redline 10-40 I cheaped out and left that oil in...I see this as a flaw in my experiment, oh well.
 
Results were encouraging, the first shift from neutral to first was just a nice 'snick' into gear and after a short 50-60 mile ride I was thrilled that all shifts were noticeably 'unclunky' and less skill was required to make any shift better. This test was followed by a 3 day 650 ride made much nicer by not thinking about 'smooth' shifting but less nice by the realization that a road trip made me very aware of the inadequacies of the seat and handlebars but I digress.
 
Now at about 1500 miles from clutch pack change, the  shifting has more or less returned to where it was originally, not bad at all but not what I found initially. I just changed the oil to the Amsoil but have yet to go for a ride since my filter of choice was the now infamous cracking KN-204 which I want to change out. One other thing I noticed right after changing the clutch pack out was that when pulling the clutch lever in, I could actually hear the plates/pressure plate? make a small disengaging sound under the cover, sorry but I can't find a word to describe it but this was with plates wet with clean oil but now with the old Redline oil approaching 1500 miles, I no longer hear this plate separation sound...a clue maybe.
 
I know that Surflex makes 'No slip/no drag' plates for old Brit bikes that is supposed to make a real difference in their shifting but I can't find them for our -07's, if I could I'd give them a try just for fun because I think perhaps there's some drag factor here that isn't helping in the shifting department...just my opinion of course but I found this to be a worthwhile experiment...Mark
 
 
IMG_20170412_150430113.jpg
 
 
 
 
 
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DewMan
@Markster Thanks for the info. Just a curiosity questions if you don't mind. Was the new clutch pack OEM Yamaha or aftermarket? Was it a replacement of just the friction plates?

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markstertt
@markster Thanks for the info. Just a curiosity questions if you don't mind. Was the new clutch pack OEM Yamaha or aftermarket? Was it a replacement of just the friction plates?
OEM clutch kit...all plates, frictions/steels, springs and gasket...nice Yamaha kit. 
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hobbs
Thanks for sharing. Nice to know clutch replacement is pretty simple, pretty sure mine's about due along with a coolant flush.

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markstertt
Thanks for sharing. Nice to know clutch replacement is pretty simple, pretty sure mine's about due along with a coolant flush.
This would be a good time to check and maybe surface the mounting face of the water pump, mine was a little warped and appeared to have a weep hole leak when it was actually the mounting surface of the pump. I installed a new 'O'ring with a smear of Loctite 518 and now all is good. I also run Evans waterless coolant so no flushing...ever, lifetime and no corrosion. After removing the pump the clutch change is easy.  Good luck. 
 
 
 
DSCN1299.jpg
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ralph
Some have reported taking out the plates and soaking them over night then replacing them as helped
I find that on first cold start pulling the clutch and giving the engine a quick little rev gives
a much quieter first engagement but this only works when the oil is cold I don't think there is enough
oil drag on the gears to break the plats free once the oil gets hot.
 
 
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rick
Hmm, seems like a lot of work and money to replace perfectly good parts. Clutch packs shouldn't need to be replaced until they are worn out or heat damaged from lots of high RPM launches. W/o the drag strip abuse, a modern, multi-plate clutch will last a long, long time and miles far closer to 100k than 10k.
 
I'm an Amsoil fan. After trying several brands of expensive synthetic oil in my aprilia to alleviate a grabby clutch(it was almost impossible to start out smoothly - especially when hot), a switch to Amsoil immediately cured that issue. I've not tried anything else since.
 
As for those 100% propylene glycol coolants, your motor will run hotter cause they have a lower specific heat than water by almost half. Yeah, it won't boil - but great, your motor will be hotter all the time and much hotter when it's really hot and yer stuck in traffic.
 
Assuming you got all of the old coolant out and that stuff is truly 100%, then maybe you don't have to worry about oxidation. You will still have to worry about the lubricants needed to keep the water pump happy. Not sure I would just fill and forget that or any solution. Stuff just wears out - including chemicals.

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markstertt
Hmm, seems like a lot of work and money to replace perfectly good parts. Clutch packs shouldn't need to be replaced until they are worn out or heat damaged from lots of high RPM launches. W/o the drag strip abuse, a modern, multi-plate clutch will last a long, long time and miles far closer to 100k than 10k. 
I'm an Amsoil fan. After trying several brands of expensive synthetic oil in my aprilia to alleviate a grabby clutch(it was almost impossible to start out smoothly - especially when hot), a switch to Amsoil immediately cured that issue. I've not tried anything else since.
 
As for those 100% propylene glycol coolants, your motor will run hotter cause they have a lower specific heat than water by almost half. Yeah, it won't boil - but great, your motor will be hotter all the time and much hotter when it's really hot and yer stuck in traffic.
 
Assuming you got all of the old coolant out and that stuff is truly 100%, then maybe you don't have to worry about oxidation. You will still have to worry about the lubricants needed to keep the water pump happy. Not sure I would just fill and forget that or any solution. Stuff just wears out - including chemicals.
Rick, you must have missed the word 'experiment' and it was about $100 bucks and not much work for me since I wanted to address the water pump issue at the same time and the old clutch looked perfect and is tucked away in a gallon Ziploc. I look for any good excuse to take something apart and see what and why and how they did it...after looking inside the primary I now know that most of that cover has phony shapes cast into it and there is a ton of empty space in there, I'm now thinking of machining a flat plate for the main cover with water pump pad and a separate cover for the clutch pack so one wouldn't have to remove the water pump etc. just to work on the clutch...this would be very advantageous for racers and again to me it looks pretty straight forward and I'm surprised someone hasn't done it already... 
As for the Evans waterless coolant, I have to ask if you've ever tried it? I experimented with it for years in my hopped up DRZ 440, 12.5-1, cams, FCR39 etc. and I flog it in the Sierras on single track and my fan comes on a lot less than my buddies bone stock (lean) DRZ400, it's never boiled over or steamed. I run a Vapor with coolant temp read out and ,yes, it does run about 5* hotter. As for the water removal aspect I'll just say I'm pretty thorough and leave it at that. Now as far as the -07 is concerned it's kind of hard to tell if it runs hotter because my thermostat appears to cycle open/closed between 176*/181* as it did with H2O and sitting in hot stop and go traffic I've seen about 222* or so, doesn't seem to be a problem. You're concern of water pump lube is valid, I'm not sure about that but will look into it although I'm pretty sure I took that into consideration in the past...you do realize that I'm not the only one in the world running this stuff?
 
 
 
 

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rick
My temp seems to jump up and down as well. Thought there was something wrong as it does this pretty quickly - all the time. Seems to just be the nature of the beast.
 
My Aprilia is now 15 years old and I've no plans on seeing the clutch or the water pump - which takes special alignment jigs to properly replace a seal. I'm perfectly happy to see picts from others. So thanks for showing yours.
 
These wet clutches bang a bit when 1st gear is selected after a prolonged stop. It's just the nature of the beast - been that way as long as I've been riding. Some are worse than others. Even a dry, automotive style clutch, like the ones in my old R bikes will clunk into gear a wee bit.
 
I've never tried those propylene coolants - or Water Wetter for that matter. I use car-part store HOATs for both of my bikes, mostly cause they work fine and are easy to find in case yer out somewhere and have a wee leak.. I'll change it every 3 years and have never had issues. (the Subaru in the garage gets stupid expensive (though still not as expensive as that Evans stuff - which I'd never heard of until yer post) Subaru branded coolant because of their open-deck head issues causing head gasket leaks). My only complaint with ethylene glycol coolants is that it's not so easy to recycle - I have to wait for the county to collect paints and chemicals an then travel a bit. Not a big deal.
 
You'll like the Amsoil. I think the motor runs a bit quieter with it and shift quality is fine. I'm even using their filter - though I've no idea if it's better or worse, at least they've no history of springing leaks like those K&Ns.

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faffi
The clack when you put the bike into gear is annoying to listen to, but doesn't hurt anything.

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gregjet
Some of the jerky clutch may be attributible to the fuelling. I recently had my Subaru XV reflashed. Before the clutch was really jerky at low speeds. After the reflash it wasn't. I had been considering replacing the clutch and fluid, until the reflash, it was so bad. Considering the marginal quality of the EFI maps , it would not surprise me if the same or similar applied to the 07.
I think EBC make a clutch pack for the 07 but it was a while ago I checked so I may be wrong.
 

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markstertt
Rick, I believe in the case of the FZ-07 the change in temps up in down is perhaps the opening/closing of the thermostat, it just continues to do it no matter what I do with my right wrist.
 
Yes the Evans is pricey but for me it's a lifetime purchase and I only disposed of the stock stuff once. It also has very low expansion and builds almost no pressure to speak of so any small leak such as a small nick in the radiator, stays a small leak and the hoses and pump are also under almost no pressure. If I had to add water on the road, then I add water, it still works but just like old style coolant and when I got home I could either leave it or change back. You should see the size and placement of my coolant reservoir now, I'll add a picture later to show you.
 
I've been running Amsoil 20w-50 V twin oil in all my bikes until I got this one and I always wanted to try the Redline so I did, now I've switched to the Amsoil Metric 10w-40 to see what that does for the clutch action...I'm using the 10-50 Dirt bike oil in the DRZ now.
 
As far as these trannies banging a bit as implied, maybe & maybe not, the reason I say this is because the FZ-07 I demoed on one of those demo days, had the sweetest shifting transmission and immediately endeared me to the bike. Mine isn't bad at all but I've been searching for a reason behind this well used demo bike and my current bikes shifting (which is typical Japanese to me). I'm sure the demo was using Yamalube 10-40 and nothing special.
 
 
Gregjet...I'm pretty sure what you said is true and eventually I'll get some fueling added to the closed throttle to help out in this respect. The EBC clutch frictions looked very similar to my eye whereas the Surflex's don't and have a reputation that I was pursuing...no biggee...I'll have to see what this new Amsoil does for me.
 
The take away from all this is that the new plates made a noticeable difference in shift quality for almost a thousand miles, a successful experiment in my book and now I'll see if a new oil will bring it back. Thanks all for responding...Mark

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rick
The temp sensor is in the back of the motor under the TBs - I would think the temp reading would be less sensitive to those fluctuations. It bothered me at 1st, I just ignore it now. My Futura is rock solid at 172 until until it sits in traffic.
 
My Outback has been reflashed twice in recalls. The 2nd one gave the car a much more pronounced abrupt throttle - nothing to do with the clutch. Took me a week to get used to so I wasn't giving myself whiplash - and man, have I done that on the FZ in 3rd or 4th gear going slow downhill. It's the worst I've ever experienced.
 
20w50 is probably too much for this bike unless you live in a place where it's smoking hot - like Oregon or Washington St. these days, lol.
 
The bang into 1st gear - meh, it's just something wet clutches do, imo. Some worse than others. Mostly I just ignore it. The FZ responds well to a wee throttle blip in neutral with the clutch pulled to free up the plates on that 1st cold start.
 
My shift lever pivot bolt was not well greased from the factory. I used a wheel bearing grease with Moly and shift quality noticeably improved
 
Markster, the previous owner's left hand is the wild card for your clutch pack. The frictions might have a bit of glaze that could be felt but not seen easily.
 
Amsoil is good stuff. Been drinking that cool-aid for over a decade now. Even the Subaru gets fed the stuff and I'm someone who used to not care much what oil went into the car.
 
 
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markstertt
Rick, what you said about the previous owner is the reason I gave for the 'experiment' in the first post and went with all new components, and on the 20-50 oil...I added that I'm using 10w-40 Metric Amsoil now. I don't think this relationship is working....you don't listen to me anymore...put down that mouse while I'm talking! JK of course, I enjoy your input..Mark
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rick
That dang Aprilia of mine calls for 15w50. There's not much of a selection of full synth oil in that vis - they are usually semi-synth. I could go to 20w50, but that starter motor works hard enough when it's cold out with the lower vis oil and I don't want to shy on the viscosity down to 10w40 when it's hot. What do? Well, i wind up mixing a little 10w40 in with the 20w50 (both Amsoil) to split the difference erring more toward the higher end. I wind up with compromise oil that's closer to 17.5w47.5.
 
Dunno how true this is, but there've been lots of online conversations (hah, everything online is true, right? ) that Amsoil holds viscosity with use cause the oil starts out at the high end of each range (yep, for example, 20W oils can have a huge range of true viscosity rated as a cSt number)https://bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/ I've seen this just pouring the stuff. The 20w50 does seem to me to be a bit slower than other 20w50s I've used. For all I know, their 20w50 might be real close to someone else' 30w60 - if there were such a thing.
 
Oh, that Aprilia of mine (now 15 years old) was a dealer demo bike and had 700 miles on the clock when I bought it. Just imagine the abuse that clutch saw in its 1st year. Sheesh.
 
Sticking with the 10w40 for the FZ. Seems to work just fine and not seen much if any sponge on my magnetic drain plug - always a good thing. The Aprilia's magnetic plug is now always spotless at oil changes
 

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