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markstertt

Sprockets misaligned and solution

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markstertt
My 2015 Fz-07 came to me, second hand, with 7000+ miles on it and one of the first things I noticed was what looked like red rust dust on the engine case behind the counter shaft sprocket. I chocked this up to the prior owners missing a chain lube or two but then last month while pursuing swing arm and suspension mods, I found that the C/S sprocket and rear wheel sprocket were approximately .125" (3mm) offset from each other with the rear sprocket running in a parallel plane to the front but .125" farther out from the center line of the bike. The red rust dust was from the chain offset wearing badly on the inside of the counter shaft sprocket. The only clue on the rear sprocket was that the chain lube was deposited on the outside of the teeth with almost none showing on the inside (seen after cleaning sprocket/lubing chain and riding) and a weird outer clean half to all the chain rollers...hopefully this will be visible in pictures. Asymmetric wear was not really evident on the rear sprocket.One other contributing factor was an approximate .065" (1.5mm) gap between swing arm and wheel spacer with axle nut backed off  and with wheel pushed all the way to the right side since that's the direction I needed the sprocket to go. This .065" spacer gap also causes problems with the front swing arm pivots bending outward as I tightened the axle nut squeezing the rear of the swing arm in to take up the gap...I'll address this issue and resolution in another post but let it be known that if you back off the axle nut completely and you have in excess of .010" (.25mm)  between wheel spacer to inside of swing arm...then you should probably correct it with a shim washer or machine a thicker spacer. I happened to have an .063" thick washer so just slipped that in between swing arm and spacer (left side of wheel) and luckily the washer I.D. was the same as the spacer.
 
My easiest solution to align the sprockets was to order a 520 chain and sprocket set from Bellisimoto.  The stock counter shaft sprocket is centered on it's hub but the 520 sprocket is slightly offset with the sprocket teeth closer to the engine centerline, just the opposite of what I needed so I just flipped the sprocket around moving the teeth outboard. The rear sprockets (525 stock and 520) are both dished but also in the wrong direction for what I needed so I also flipped the rear sprocket around and mounted it inside out moving the tooth centerline inboard. With these two sprockets mounted backwards and the rear wheel pushed to the right with the .063" spacer beside the left side wheel spacer, I was able to lay a straightedge across the face of the sprockets and determine they were as close as I needed, no easily measured offset...good enough for me. I can't remember the offset dimension specs of the c/r and rear wheel sprockets but when flipped inside out and combined with the rear wheel spacing washer (.063") my two sprockets are now in the same plane.  Yes, with machine work and a hardened spacer the stock front sprocket could have been moved outward and with machine work to the rear sprocket carrier the rear sprocket could be moved inboard and maybe with a narrower rt. side wheel spacer and thicker left side spacer you'd accomplish the same thing but for now I went with the easiest solution and didn't want to move the whole wheel assy. .125" to the right. I have picked up a spare sprocket carrier so may eventually machine it to move the rear sprocket inboard...when my to do list gets a lot shorter. Interesting side fact, with the alignment done as I did it the chain is running true on the center rib of the swing arm rubber slider/guard and with the chain guide rib around the counter shaft sprocket so maybe I'll leave it as is and move on.
 
Red rust dust from extreme wear to inside of sprocket
DSCN1241.jpg
 
 
 
 
blurry pix of inside of sprocket and chain rollers showing offset contact pattern and wear
DSCN1244.jpg
 
 
.065" excessive rear wheel space between wheel spacer and swing arm leg
DSCN1252.jpg
 
 
 
temporary picture upload
 
checking sprocket alignment after installing sprockets inside out
DSCN1290.jpg
 
 
Axle nut not installed, just showing square tube used for checking alignment, rear shock mount undone to allow wheel to sit higher for checking purposes,
dished side of rear sprocket now facing inward to move tooth centerline inboard.
DSCN1291.jpg
 
 
 
 
 
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rick
Interesting. Might be why so many chain guides have worn prematurely
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mcbrien
I had this issue with a tuono, Must not be uncommon. Are your wheels in line?

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r1limited
String it, rear may be bent. All I can add is when I adjust the back end I always establish the teeth in the rear to ride evenly in the chain with equal space between teeth and inside wals of chain. 99.9999% of the time it aligns within 1 mm. 0.065 of an inch ist not a space shuttle?

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markstertt
All good thoughts, I'll try to answer all briefly as follows;
 
First, if you see red dust behind your c/s sprocket and you've been lubing your chain then check for misalignment of sprockets, not the same as misaligned as when adjusting chain tensioners but as in not running in the same plane or same distance from centerline of bike...mine, when parallel and checked with a straightedge...the rear sprocket sat 1/8" outward of the front sprocket making the chain run on and off the sprockets at an angle. This was an easy to see visual offset when removing enough parts and raising the swing arm for a straight eyeball shot from the rear, and yes a laser alignment tool would be very handy.
 
If bent, then the frame came from Yamaha that way, more likely mfg. tolerances stacking up not in bikes favor? The .065" gap between swing arm and wheel spacer is significant in that if you torque down your axle nut and squeeze the rear of swing arm together with this much gap then the swing arms (on this bike) 'front pivots' will swing outward. With axle nut loose, and this 'wheel to swing arm gap' evident at the rear, the front of swing arm will move laterally (left to rt. etc.) approximately .025" total, however, as soon as you tighten down the rear axle nut, the front of swing arm spreads and the .025" side to side clearance is gone and the outboard end of pivots will make contact with the inside of the chrome dust/grease caps forward inner surfaces. This also puts an asymmetric load on the swing arm pivot bearings and spacers. Once you shim out the rear wheel gap, then the swing arm stays true and the front side to side clearance stays at .025", I actually ground .010" off the left side pivot bearing spacer to reduce total front side play to approx. .015" clearance. Bottom line here, once again if you have more than about .010" gap between your rear wheel spacer and swing arm you should probably shim it out...if you care that is.
 
I did not string the wheels to check their relative alignment but I will just to see. I was aligning the sprockets as easily as possible for an impending trip and this was just another problem to solve quickly. Moving the wheel .125" to the rt. (if indeed it's that far off) would have solved this issue also but the rt. side wheel spacer is narrower than the left and with the brake assy. on that side it may have created more of an issue than I needed at the time. If needed, I could also modify the front of the swing arm to space the whole assy. to the rt. as necessary but since the problem is solved for the moment then I think I'll just leave it alone. Although fun as it is, I'm getting a little tired of blue printing this thing, I really want an -07 powered dual sport as that is what I had intended to turn this bike into but now I'm waiting for Yamaha to see what they come out with.
 
 
 
 
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catfish

I have same problem with both CS sprockets I've replaced. Chains only lasted 12-14k miles, and inside of CS sprockets teeth are VERY worn. No wear on outside of CS teeth. Symmetrical (normal) wear at rear sprocket. Will post photos once I get 'em online.

 

Thinking of turning new rear sprocket around when mounted to offset it towards the CS sprocket "plane."

 

Wheee!

 

Catfish ...

 

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r1limited

Not Gonna Bite
Turn away
Take hands off keyboard
Look a funny rabbit

  • Haha 1

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markstertt
24 minutes ago, r1limited said:

Not Gonna Bite
Turn away
Take hands off keyboard
Look a funny rabbit

You know I can't stay away from this...RABBIT? where? Oh man...don't be messing with me....

 

40 minutes ago, catfish said:

I have same problem with both CS sprockets I've replaced. Chains only lasted 12-14k miles, and inside of CS sprockets teeth are VERY worn. No wear on outside of CS teeth. Symmetrical (normal) wear at rear sprocket. Will post photos once I get 'em online.

 

Thinking of turning new rear sprocket around when mounted to offset it towards the CS sprocket "plane."

 

Wheee!

 

Catfish ...

 

Yeah I'm sure there are more out there...I will say again...If you lube your chain regularly and see any reddish dust on your engine case behind the C/S sprocket then your sprockets are not running parallel to each other meaning the centerline of the front and rear sprockets are not equidistance from the centerline of the bike. With a mirror you may be able to see the more extreme wear on the inside of the C/S sprocket, however, the rear sprocket won't exhibit the same wear on it's outside surface (larger dia., fewer revolutions etc.) but you will be able to see an uneven displacement of chain lube, more lube, greasy teeth on one side but clean on the other showing that the chain is pulled to one side. My chain rollers also exhibited a shiny half vs. what should have been an equal contact patch across there surface. That's 3 clues to help determine if your sprockets are running in the same plane to each other.

 

In my case I needed the offset of the 520 chain conversion to be able to flip both sprockets (front & rear) and mount them wrong side out/in to align them ...I also needed a .063" washer/spacer added to the left side rear wheel spacer to eliminate a little excess clearance there...

 

Proper alignment should greatly increase the lifespan of your sprockets and chain as evidenced by how much wear I found at 7K miles...even though it was evident the previous owner had kept the chain lubed. Probably run quieter and vibrate less too...oh, and more power, better gas mileage and will make you look younger and even appear smarter...take your pick.

 

Now...where's that rabbit, here little rabbit, come to daddy...

  • Haha 1

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markstertt

r1...we should be riding or working on something...these forums are truly a double edged sword...gotta go.

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catfish

Here's my sprocket photos.

 

Rear sprocket has 26k miles & just replaced.

 

In that 26k miles, the 1st (oem) CS + chain only lasted ~12k miles, and 2nd (oem) CS + new chain lasted 14k miles. 26k total.

 

These chains & CS sprockets should be lasting more than 20k miles easily with FZ07 Hp.

 

 

i-zj6KXVm-X2.jpg

Back side of oem rear sprocket with 26k miles. Small wear for mileage.

 

 

i-7vFQkSB-X2.jpg

Front side of oem rear sprocket with 26k miles. Small wear for mileage, possibly a little more on this side vs. back side, but hard to tell or measure.

 

 

i-6HN2TqB-X2.jpg

Outside of New CS, 2nd (oem) CS, and 1st (oem) CS (left to right). Note NO side-of-teeth wear at all on 1st & 2nd CSes

 

i-D24kZ8Z-X2.jpg

Inside of New CS, 2nd (oem) CS, and 1st (oem) CS. Note EXTENSIVE side-of-teeth wear on 1st & 2nd CSes.

 

Most definitely a CS sprocket alignment issue. Not sure how far out _my_FZ07 sprockets are, but a 36x1" straight edge from Home Depot in the morning should reveal how far to shim rear sprocket in or CS sprocket out.

 

Measurements & hopefully better alignment strategy tomorrow.

 

Catfish ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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norcal616

me thinks the "red dust" is the lube between the chain link rollers leaking out... 

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markstertt
15 hours ago, norcal616 said:

me thinks the "red dust" is the lube between the chain link rollers leaking out... 

Not at all, actual steel dust off of c/s sprocket and inside of chain link that has oxidized...100% guaranteed. The picture with the red dust is after about 1000 miles, having previously cleaned much more from that area deposited there in the previous 7000 miles (previous owner). Looking close you can see metallic sparkles in the dust, in person that is. 1500 miles since on new chain/sprockets and case is clean...except for little spatters of lube.

 

Catfish...if you space the stock c/s sprocket out (hardened steel washer) you will probably find that you will need to grind an equivalent amount off the outside face of the sprocket hub to maintain adequate thread engagement for the nut. This was one of the reasons I went 520 since the 520 c/s sprocket teeth are offset on it's hub allowing me to flip it around and gain half the offset that I needed...flipping the back sprocket (dished side inboard) got me the other half needed.

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r1limited
20 hours ago, catfish said:

Here's my sprocket photos.

 

Rear sprocket has 26k miles & just replaced.

 

In that 26k miles, the 1st (oem) CS + chain only lasted ~12k miles, and 2nd (oem) CS + new chain lasted 14k miles. 26k total.

 

These chains & CS sprockets should be lasting more than 20k miles easily with FZ07 Hp.

 

 

i-zj6KXVm-X2.jpg

Back side of oem rear sprocket with 26k miles. Small wear for mileage.

 

 

i-7vFQkSB-X2.jpg

Front side of oem rear sprocket with 26k miles. Small wear for mileage, possibly a little more on this side vs. back side, but hard to tell or measure.

 

 

i-6HN2TqB-X2.jpg

Outside of New CS, 2nd (oem) CS, and 1st (oem) CS (left to right). Note NO side-of-teeth wear at all on 1st & 2nd CSes

 

i-D24kZ8Z-X2.jpg

Inside of New CS, 2nd (oem) CS, and 1st (oem) CS. Note EXTENSIVE side-of-teeth wear on 1st & 2nd CSes.

 

Most definitely a CS sprocket alignment issue. Not sure how far out _my_FZ07 sprockets are, but a 36x1" straight edge from Home Depot in the morning should reveal how far to shim rear sprocket in or CS sprocket out.

 

Measurements & hopefully better alignment strategy tomorrow.

 

Catfish ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well a blind man can see the problem you got big ol holes in them

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markstertt
2 hours ago, r1limited said:

Well a blind man can see the problem you got big ol holes in them

Big enough for a little ol' rabbit to slip through? Still looking for that wascally wabbit...

 

IF you see red dust, then you must adjust....

  • Haha 1

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