Once again on FZ-07 suspension choices +word-wall

[daviziko]

TL;DR: I'm new to bike riding bought a 2nd hand MT07, getting scared on a right turn everyday, look on the internet if anyone was having trouble with rear suspension, lurk on fz07.org for weeks => came to the conclusion that at least rear shock must be upgraded, realise I have no idea what I'm doing, open a post asking for help with suspension choice 
 
Hi all~
 
So I've finally bought a MT07 (second hand), my first bike, which I love how it looks, how nimble it is and how easy it is on the road. The thing is, on my daily commute there is a right turn on a roundabout which has road paint, some bubling bumps (I mean, no hole bump just some wave) and camber in the opposite direction I'm turning, see photo for context
 

 
The thing is as I'm just past the crosswalk, I felt the back like about to lose grip and slide (similar feeling like on a front-wheel drive car and starting to understeer). I got scared shetless (2nd or 3rd time I ride the bikeon the 30min commuting in city traffic) once I recovered myself, I started thinking about it and my thought was "WTF! You turned at the same speed as you usually turn on the car, and everybody knows that bikes have a lot less turning ability than cars. Thank whichever deity was on the roundabout and let you turn without kissing the road". I tend to take some turns a bit hard on the car (not super hard, but enough for wife to grab handle to support herself), this particular turn I believe at ~60kph (local speed limit there 50kmh, not for bragging but for context ). So next day, I reduce speed a lot, and turn at ~30kmh and feel no waving, next couple days at +40kmh but definetely <50kmh feel some waving not as hard as first time, got scared again and thought was that I was turning on the paint, which every biker knows is a trap and only noob riders get caught on that; so next times I make sure I'm not on the paint (run a bit wide on entry) and kept feeling the waving on the butt. Another Euroka moment: tyre pressure I didn't even checked pressures since I bought the bike, tyres were 1-2 psi off recommended rates => no noticeable change in behaviour. Maybe suspension is not set up for me? (previous owner look like me, maybe a couple cm taller and 5kg heavier top) maybe 5 kg is noticeable on this ligth bike?
 
At this point I didn't know what was happening so I googled and found this forum and general consensus that suspension on the MT07 is up for an upgrade.
 
Hypothesis: Forum says suspension is crap, and the bike is bouncy. Test: Go for a ride on the road and check. Result: Can't relate. It is bouncy, but bikes feel road imperfections more than cars: is this bouncy for a bike? I don't know   Maybe I'm feeling confirmation bias, so another test must be performed  :-&[HASH]91;
 
Hypothesis: Forum says suspension is crap, and the bike is bouncy. Test: Swap bikes with brother-in-law's Hornet and compare. Result: OMG this Honda won't turn at all! this is supposed to be +100cv and it takes so long to accelerate (once it gets >7000rpm it starts to show its horsepower), but onto the test: Confirmed, the MT07 is bouncy. He did ride the bike when I bought it, but it was power-restricted due to previous owner not having appropriate driving license, and wanted to ride it without power seal (it took me couple weeks to get it done due to work grabbing time) because he missed mono and bi-power on low rpms and everytime we got together he insisted he wanted to ride my bike, I didn't even tell him anything about my suspension thoughts (in retrospective, good thing because blind-trial for the win!) so schedule saturday morning for a ride and swap bikes. When we got back, he asked me if I felt differences and told him blablabla low torque on low rpms blablablah noisier than mine blablabla wow gearbox smoothness blablabla it weights a lot, I can skip gym this week with all the effort I put to turn hahaha did I make a good choice on the bike? do you like it? and he tells me wow such torque on low rpms blablabla OMG fuel mileage (MT surprised him for low fuel consumption) blablabla I don't like... is it a bit bouncy, isn't it? so double check on the test (one being blind)!
 
So to the point of the post, I have 0 experience on bike riding and/or suspension and seek assistance to make as much informed decision I can:
[ul type=disc][*]I weight ~75Kg naked, didn't feel front fork dive under heavy braking (but it may be lack of sensitivity by driver  (rofl) ).[*]Four or five times a month I commute with wife (she weights ~53kg) I don't think we'll duo on the roads short term (kid is 1yo).[*]No plans for track (but it's not a "I'll never track race it").[*]Want the work done without breaking the bank, don't mind spending a bit more for a superior solution.[*]Live in Spain, Europe.[/ul][div]
So far this is what I've been offered/found:
Shocks:
[ul type=disc][*]Ohlins YA 419 ~510€[*]K-Tech Razor-r ~620€[*]Wilbers 640 ~450€[*]Nitron R1 ~550€ (got told this isn't an emulsion shock  x_x  anyone knows the difference?)[*]Nitron R3 ~840€[*]Matris MY120 ~530€ (carpimoto)[*]Hyperpro YA07-5AE ~510€[/ul]
Cartridges (don't know if needed) here I lean towards Matris (no mod required and can be installed without removing forks) or Ohlins (in Yamaha's brochure for the bike):
[ul type=disc][*]K-Tech IDS20 ~620€ + 120€ (springs) + 20€ (oil) = ~760€[*]Matris F15Y125K ~550€ (carpimoto)[*]Ohlins NIX22 ~640€ + springs(?)[/ul]
Anyone can point me in the right direction? which shock and/or cartridge should I get? better alternatives/offers in Europe?
 
P.S. @pattonme apologies for mentioning you out of the blue, but I'd like to know your thoughts [/div]
 
 
 

[r1limited]

Where do I start
 
OK Always I mean always wheely for safety
 
Next you are right the stock suspension sucks and if the bike still has then stinkin freakin I hates em with a pation bridgstone POS's on them well what do you expect? The bike becomes very unsettles in the conditions you stated so slow the heck down until you iron out the issues. Mine is still stock, I am about 190 and need to do a lot on the suspenders. What I have done
1. Two clicks up from stock this seems to settle the rear a tad bit for me
2. Forks suck have yet to do anything I am thinking about it right now
3. Bridgestone sucks at least keep 33 psi front and rear in them ( I find they do not push as much
 
A chassis will get unsettled if the front and rear are fight each other, ultimatly you want a chassis to settle evenly under normal conditions. The suspension does not really like to be pre loaded while entering turns, I always trail brake anyway but lightly with this bike until I can get the suspenders where I want them.
 
As far as the choices go I have no comment, if it were me I would go wit Ohlins front and rear, then put a set of Q3s on

[crsnhppr]

^ all of that and do some reading up on body position , throttle position , and cornering techniques. Also go find a dirt road and go up and down that a lot and practice the feeling of your tires slippin n sliding around

[Mr.Puss]

Dont forget to take a look a "Bitubo" shocks and forks. Nice and Italian. One of our forum vendors BellissiMoto offers them with a member discount no less.

[rick]

yer just losing traction on the paint used in the cross-walk. You can spend money on suspension bits - which would not be a waste of money, imo - but it's not gonna give that surface a better grip on any maker's tire.
 
we used to have trolley car (think small train) tracks in the streets here. Nothing like changing lanes and crossing a shiny piece of metal with a big wide groove in its middle to soil a pair of shorts. Add a little water to the mix and bad things happened - especially back then when tires were quite a bit narrower and fit nicely into that rails slot.
 
Gonna recommend you slow down until dealing with these new situations becomes a bit more routine. That's gonna take a lot of miles.
 
 

[pattonme]

Right, so exactly what PSI are you running? 1 or 2 off is no big deal but the question remains what values are you referring to as reference?
 
There is no question the suspension is lacking but also you're a new rider so there's a lot of new sensations being thrown at you that you're not familiar with. I suggest riding and riding and riding some more and learning how to read road surface, subject yourself to as many situations as you can find. And keep the throttle in check.
 
All that said...
> (cartridge) can be installed without removing forks
 
Nope. pretty much anything you want to do the frontend has to come apart. The only exception is swapping out springs which is doable on-bike. But the stock springs are fine. If you have not set sag, do so.
 
For upgrades I would start with the K-tech Razor-LITE shock (400? Euro) and pick it over the Wilburs and Hyperpro and Ohlins.
Then I would replace the fork oil with something ~36cSt@40 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/rigjw2juyyvi7jn/Fork%20oil%20weights.html) and ride that for a while.
 
If you do decide to go cartridge forks then the Matris F15 is the best deal and very nice product *ONLY IF* you get the 'C' leg fixed. I can send you pistons and shim stack toward that effort.

[daviziko]

Right, so exactly what PSI are you running? 1 or 2 off is no big deal but the question remains what values are you referring to as reference? 
There is no question the suspension is lacking but also you're a new rider so there's a lot of new sensations being thrown at you that you're not familiar with. I suggest riding and riding and riding some more and learning how to read road surface, subject yourself to as many situations as you can find. And keep the throttle in check.
 
All that said...
> (cartridge) can be installed without removing forks
 
Nope. pretty much anything you want to do the frontend has to come apart. The only exception is swapping out springs which is doable on-bike. But the stock springs are fine. If you have not set sag, do so.
 
For upgrades I would start with the K-tech Razor-LITE shock (400? Euro) and pick it over the Wilburs and Hyperpro and Ohlins.
Then I would replace the fork oil with something ~36cSt@40 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/rigjw2juyyvi7jn/Fork%20oil%20weights.html) and ride that for a while.
 
If you do decide to go cartridge forks then the Matris F15 is the best deal and very nice product *ONLY IF* you get the 'C' leg fixed. I can send you pistons and shim stack toward that effort.

33 psi front, 36 psi rear (as stated on owner's manual and on the bike sticker) 
Is it complicated to fix the 'C' leg? Are special tools required? How much would it approx. cost me the pistons and shim stack?
 
If I couldn't find the Razor-Lite for ~400 Euros, which would be your next option? (asked some quotes, will update once they answer back) on the internet I've found it for ~510Euros.

[daviziko]

yer just losing traction on the paint used in the cross-walk. You can spend money on suspension bits - which would not be a waste of money, imo - but it's not gonna give that surface a better grip on any maker's tire.  
we used to have trolley car (think small train) tracks in the streets here. Nothing like changing lanes and crossing a shiny piece of metal with a big wide groove in its middle to soil a pair of shorts. Add a little water to the mix and bad things happened - especially back then when tires were quite a bit narrower and fit nicely into that rails slot.
 
Gonna recommend you slow down until dealing with these new situations becomes a bit more routine. That's gonna take a lot of miles.
 

Already did that, and putting some mileage to get used to the feelings. 
Thanks for your comment!

[daviziko]

Dont forget to take a look a "Bitubo" shocks and forks. Nice and Italian. One of our forum vendors BellissiMoto offers them with a member discount no less.

Already looked at them, but couldn't find them cheap enough.
 
Thanks for your suggestion!

[daviziko]

^ all of that and do some reading up on body position , throttle position , and cornering techniques. Also go find a dirt road and go up and down that a lot and practice the feeling of your tires slippin n sliding around

I live in the middle of the valley and I have a 1 hour ride before finding some twists, so I'm limited to one day a week for riding  
I've gone to the newbie section, found a couple books recommendations and already ordered a couple from Amazon.
 
Thanks for the suggestion!

[rick]

The manual calls for 33 front and 36 rear - measured on cold tires. i won't vary much from that.
 
My Aprilia uses the same sized tires and that book calls for 36F and 40F. That bike also weighs 120 lbs more. I've routinely run 35F and 38R w/o issues ( have had this bike for 14 years and know it pretty well) . It softens the ride a bit - as for traction differences - beats me.
 
You can run lower tire pressures (maybe as much as 3psi (10-ish percent) and gain some traction, and that's fine for nice smooth roads. Guys run track tires almost always at lower than recommended pressures - think smooth surface w/no holes) Do that here in the rust belt where we salt already bad asphalt in the winter and hit an ugly pothole at speed with an under inflated tire - you might lose a wheel. The stock suspension sure won't help much in that case either.

[thumpalong]

I feel your pain. Weighing about 88 kg, the stock suspension is unbalanced front to rear. Tried more (and less) preload on the shock but each was just worse - more preload made the forks dive worse and the back end was a jack hammer. Less preload and the back suspension had better complance but the front to back imbalance was much worse. After about 2K km the suspension compliance improved a tiny amount but bumps in the corner are still disconcerting (pogo-like). 
 
Only suggestion other than upgrades that I can offer is to get your butt off the seat when you see the bumps coming. Like standing up on a dirt bike, but just enough to get you body weight suspended by your legs. That adds your leg suspension action to the bike's suspension action. Don't do this unless you're comfortable doing it - like if you've ridden dirt bikes. Otherwise, start trying it on a straight smooth road and practice taking the weight off your butt and putting it onto your feet (as if you are going to stand on the footpegs). Just a few cm off the seat is needed if the bumps are small. If they are bigger you may need to get up a little higher or the seat will still smack you on the bottom when it bounces. And doing this in the corners takes some good judgment concerning lean angle, body angle, etc. but it will help damp the front/rear oscillations (your body mass is not adding so much input to the bike's bad reaction). It's also much more comfortable then getting spine jolting shocks from the rear! Of course, if you don't see the bumps coming this technique is irrelevant, but for riding the same roads it sure makes my ride more comfortable and controlled!

[Cruizin]

I feel your pain. Weighing about 88 kg, the stock suspension is unbalanced front to rear. Tried more (and less) preload on the shock but each was just worse - more preload made the forks dive worse and the back end was a jack hammer. Less preload and the back suspension had better complance but the front to back imbalance was much worse. After about 2K km the suspension compliance improved a tiny amount but bumps in the corner are still disconcerting (pogo-like).  
Only suggestion other than upgrades that I can offer is to get your butt off the seat when you see the bumps coming. Like standing up on a dirt bike, but just enough to get you body weight suspended by your legs. That adds your leg suspension action to the bike's suspension action. Don't do this unless you're comfortable doing it - like if you've ridden dirt bikes. Otherwise, start trying it on a straight smooth road and practice taking the weight off your butt and putting it onto your feet (as if you are going to stand on the footpegs). Just a few cm off the seat is needed if the bumps are small. If they are bigger you may need to get up a little higher or the seat will still smack you on the bottom when it bounces. And doing this in the corners takes some good judgment concerning lean angle, body angle, etc. but it will help damp the front/rear oscillations (your body mass is not adding so much input to the bike's bad reaction). It's also much more comfortable then getting spine jolting shocks from the rear! Of course, if you don't see the bumps coming this technique is irrelevant, but for riding the same roads it sure makes my ride more comfortable and controlled!

 
 
Wow, you finally posted! lol

[Beemer]

[div]Whenever I find a particular area on a familiar road to be slick I simply go slower and lean less in that area. There's a spot like that just half a block from my house and I know the buggar is just waiting for me to go fast through it. It begs me to try and beat it but so far I haven't wrecked because I ignore it's challenge. [/div]

[r1limited]

[div]Whenever I find a particular area on a familiar road to be slick I simply go slower and lean less in that area. There's a spot like that just half a block from my house and I know the buggar is just waiting for me to go fast through it. It begs me to try and beat it but so far I haven't wrecked because I ignore it's challenge. [/div]

A very respected well known club racer in the bay area lost his life on a road he knew extremely well.  a #1 plate a few years he instructed, built bikes helped riders yet miss read his own ability and a certain section of road that had some anomalies.  This person was very cognizant of NOT using the road as your personal race track, and preached the gospel of road safety, yet like many ride their bikes to there comfortable ability.  The Road bit him this particular day, stories were sketchy, but the story was the bike became unsettled and took out a respected rider. 
Point of the Story! Well I think people will get the point.
 
 

[Beemer]

[div]Whenever I find a particular area on a familiar road to be slick I simply go slower and lean less in that area. There's a spot like that just half a block from my house and I know the buggar is just waiting for me to go fast through it. It begs me to try and beat it but so far I haven't wrecked because I ignore it's challenge. [/div]

A very respected well known club racer in the bay area lost his life on a road he knew extremely well.  a [HASH]1 plate a few years he instructed, built bikes helped riders yet miss read his own ability and a certain section of road that had some anomalies.  This person was very cognizant of NOT using the road as your personal race track, and preached the gospel of road safety, yet like many ride their bikes to there comfortable ability.  The Road bit him this particular day, stories were sketchy, but the story was the bike became unsettled and took out a respected rider. 
Point of the Story! Well I think people will get the point.
 

Sounds familiar. there's a patch of road about a half mile from my house that gets a lot of attention because it's always changing. Mostly, it's a patch of road with several potholes in it. In the past when they were open you could see the road around the holes had dropped in elevation so they appear to act more like sink holes IMO and maybe in others too because even people in cars avoid driving over these spots after the road is filled in and patched up. I think everyone is afraid their vehicle will drop inside a hole if they drive over it. I don't think anyone is trying to beef up their suspension over this. They just act leery of it and avoid it best they can. 

[r1limited]

@beemer
I agree, I do not think it is any different for race tracks either. A track can change almost over night do to heat cold etc, same as any public roadway. Mick Doohan made this video and it serves a good message
 
[video src=https://youtu.be/VruWHHEnZGw]
 
 

[bellissimoto]

Dont forget to take a look a "Bitubo" shocks and forks. Nice and Italian. One of our forum vendors BellissiMoto offers them with a member discount no less.

Already looked at them, but couldn't find them cheap enough. 
Thanks for your suggestion!

Couldn't find them cheap enough?   
Please look at this thread:
 
Bitubo Suspension
 
And take 20% off Retail prices for being a Forum member.  Should be less expensive than anyone else out there.  If not, please let me know...
 
 

 
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com

[Beemer]

@beemer I agree, I do not think it is any different for race tracks either. A track can change almost over night do to heat cold etc, same as any public roadway. Mick Doohan made this video and it serves a good message
 
[video src=https://youtu.be/VruWHHEnZGw]
 

One of the best video's on biking I've seen to date. Many bikers need to see this video and get a clue but I don't think that will have any affect on the wild & immortal ones. To some there's just isn't any thrill if it isn't dangerous. 

[daviziko]

Already looked at them, but couldn't find them cheap enough. 
Thanks for your suggestion!

Couldn't find them cheap enough?   
Please look at this thread:
 
Bitubo Suspension
 
And take 20% off Retail prices for being a Forum member.  Should be less expensive than anyone else out there.  If not, please let me know...
 
 

 
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com

I live in Europe, so I have to take into account shipping + import taxes. 
Feel free to provide a quote

[bellissimoto]

Couldn't find them cheap enough?   
Please look at this thread:
 
Bitubo Suspension
 
And take 20% off Retail prices for being a Forum member.  Should be less expensive than anyone else out there.  If not, please let me know...
 
 

 
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com

I live in Europe, so I have to take into account shipping + import taxes. 
Feel free to provide a quote

Please PM me for with your address for an accurate quote  
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com

[daviziko]

I live in Europe, so I have to take into account shipping + import taxes. 
Feel free to provide a quote

Please PM me for with your address for an accurate quote  
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com

It will take a few messages more on the forum. 
I live in Zaragoza, Spain, Europe (shipping costs are usually the same no matter where in continental Spain)

[bellissimoto]

Please PM me for with your address for an accurate quote  
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com

It will take a few messages more on the forum. 
I live in Zaragoza, Spain, Europe (shipping costs are usually the same no matter where in continental Spain)

You have a PM Sir  
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com

[daviziko]

It will take a few messages more on the forum. 
I live in Zaragoza, Spain, Europe (shipping costs are usually the same no matter where in continental Spain)

You have a PM Sir  
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com

Thanks Paul! 
Don't know if I'll choose the Bitubo option, but you are treating potential clients the right way so keep doing!

[pattonme]

33 psi front, 36 psi rear (as stated on owner's manual and on the bike sticker) 
Is it complicated to fix the 'C' leg? Are special tools required? How much would it approx. cost me the pistons and shim stack?

 
At 75KG I would run 33/33 psi. But over/under pressure isn't the issue.
 
You need a 10mm box wrench and a heavy vise that can grip round stock, small butane gun, a crescent, a (home made) cartridge tool, and pair of calipers and you should be able to do it.
 
Pity the round-a-bout is traffic light controlled, else you could put your knee on the deck and go round and round and round till you were dizzy. Or slid under a bus or lorry. :'(