How to: FZ-07 throttle body sync

[cyow5]

On 12/27/2017 at 1:59 AM, heartofperformance said:

Dear all,

 

Would like to ask for advice, can this Manometer be used for syncing our FZ07?

https://shopee.com.my/LCD-Digital-Manometer-Differential-Air-Pressure-Meter-Gauge-2Psi-±13.79Kpa-i.19042390.341448369
 

Very much appreciated cheers!

That's the one I used. It is has an averaging function which is good for reducing the amount that the reading bounces around, but it can make it hard to get a good reading. Remember, the manifold pressure/vacuum isn't a steady amount but pulses every time the intake valves open and close, so the tubing full of water usually reduces how much this is noticed. If you run each tube into something like a large can and then into the manometer, that should smooth it out, so this is what I plan on trying next. I really want the digital one to work though since you don't have the risk of sucking a bunch of liquid into the engine. 

[Max Colombié]

On 23/02/2018 at 10:41 AM, cyow5 said:

That's the one I used. It is has an averaging function which is good for reducing the amount that the reading bounces around, but it can make it hard to get a good reading. Remember, the manifold pressure/vacuum isn't a steady amount but pulses every time the intake valves open and close, so the tubing full of water usually reduces how much this is noticed. If you run each tube into something like a large can and then into the manometer, that should smooth it out, so this is what I plan on trying next. I really want the digital one to work though since you don't have the risk of sucking a bunch of liquid into the engine. 

Hey did you try this set up?
I have the same manometer as you and last year it was a pain in the ass to do the readings. If it works great I would love to do this next week! Seems like a great idea if there are no leaks.

 

By the way if someone is interested! The best way I think would be to use this sensor: http://cache.freescale.com/files/sensors/doc/data_sheet/MPXV7007.pdf

It's 15$ and you can program it with something like an arduino (juste be carefull to have an aquisition rate of at least 100 Hz to have an accurate pressure reading at idle speed). With this you'll be able to have a graph in real time of the pressure and program your own average value (do an average of the 100, 500 or 1000 last readings for exemple). You could also setup buttoms to start and stop the average. You have endless possibilities and full control if you know a bit about programming. I'm too cheap to buy this sensor and do this because I already have my manometer. But if I can sell it on Craiglist or it doesn't work well this year again. I'll buy the sensor and program it with my arduino UNO.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Max Colombié

[cyow5]

22 hours ago, Max Colombié said:

Hey did you try this set up?
I have the same manometer as you and last year it was a pain in the ass to do the readings. If it works great I would love to do this next week! Seems like a great idea if there are no leaks.

 

By the way if someone is interested! The best way I think would be to use this sensor: http://cache.freescale.com/files/sensors/doc/data_sheet/MPXV7007.pdf

It's 15$ and you can program it with something like an arduino (juste be carefull to have an aquisition rate of at least 100 Hz to have an accurate pressure reading at idle speed). With this you'll be able to have a graph in real time of the pressure and program your own average value (do an average of the 100, 500 or 1000 last readings for exemple). You could also setup buttoms to start and stop the average. You have endless possibilities and full control if you know a bit about programming. I'm too cheap to buy this sensor and do this because I already have my manometer. But if I can sell it on Craiglist or it doesn't work well this year again. I'll buy the sensor and program it with my arduino UNO.

I used one input to each throttle port, and I used a T-junction to keep the MAF reading the port it is normally at. I used the averaging feature and a bit of eyeballing since it is still a little too quick. Next time, I will try running each port through a large can and see if that helps dampen the pulses more

[rick]

Best way I've found to dampen the pulses is to put a small diameter tube inside the hoses attached to the gauge. A plug with a pinhole inside the vacuum tubing - like an old idle jet from a carb will work.

 

a small needle valve in each line would allow you to dial in the damping. As long as you don't close the valve completely, the vacuum will always read  https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-Lead-Free-Brass-Compression-Needle-Valve-3-8-in-800519/300096133?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal2_rr-_-205792622-_-300096133-_-N    

 

 If you get it right, the pulses become negligible  

Edited March 4, 2018 by rick

[Max Colombié]

Maybe with the needled valve it works.

However I have done some research and contacted the company of the digital manometer, the Perfect-Prime AR1890.

It can't be directly used to sync throttle bodies! It only has a sample frequency of 3-10 Hz. The frequency of the engine at Idle is 1300/60=22 Hz.

If you want a good average of a cycle, you need around 5 times the frequency sample than the frequency of the thing you mesure.

We need at least 100Hz to have a good reading of the average. We have 3-10 Hz! I stress it, the average read by this manometre is completly useless.

Maybe if we find a way to diminue the amplitude of the cycle, it could work. But without it, the reading of this manometre is completly false.

 

PS: English isn't my frist language so it's a bit hard to explain. But I learned all this in a course last semester in my mechanical engeneering degree. I think that this effect is called aliasing in english.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Max Colombié

[cyow5]

38 minutes ago, Max Colombié said:

Maybe with the needled valve it works.

However I have done some research and contacted the company of the digital manometer, the Perfect-Prime AR1890.

It can't be directly used to sync throttle bodies! It only has a sample frequency of 3-10 Hz. The frequency of the engine at Idle is 1300/60=22 Hz.

If you want a good average of a cycle, you need around 5 times the frequency sample than the frequency of the thing you mesure.

We need at least 100Hz to have a good reading of the average. We have 3-10 Hz! I stress it, the average read by this manometre is completly useless.

Maybe if we find a way to diminue the amplitude of the cycle, it could work. But without it, the reading of this manometre is completly false.

 

PS: English isn't my frist language so it's a bit hard to explain. But I learned all this in a course last semester in my mechanical engeneering degree. I think that this effect is called aliasing in english.

You've just explained why I suggested using an expansion like a can on each vacuum line. Adding an inline expansion to each line will mechanically average the pulses for you, and the digital speed will be plenty. 

 

 

[Max Colombié]

5 minutes ago, cyow5 said:

You've just explained why I suggested using an expansion like a can on each vacuum line. Adding an inline expansion to each line will mechanically average the pulses for you, and the digital speed will be plenty. 

 

 

Yep it could work. However we can't be 100% sure that it does neither :\ We would need a tool that can mesure at 100Hz to make sure that the pulses are averaged enough by the can.

 

I'll try to make it work with my manometer but I would advice to new people to just buy analogue manometers or build one. Otherwise make sure that the digital manometer has at least 100 Hz.

[rick]

When you add a small orifice into a long rubber hose, you effectively are creating an expansion can within the hose itself - just on a smaller scale. Been doin carb and throttle body syncs this way since the 70s. 

 

The Morgan Carbtune actually includes plugs that have a small orifice to place inside the hoses  - note the word "restrictors" in the description  https://www.carbtune.com  

[minkster]

Ok, dumb question time.  I am looking at my bike and planning my throttle body sync, and I am supposed to remove the tube marked 1.  I don't see how to remove this tube, I can't believe I should cut it with a razor blade or something, so before I do something stupid, can somebody set me straight?

 

 

 

[Zephyr]

Use a long angled needle nose plier.  I managed to do everything without removing anything from the bike, but if you read the tutorials you will see that there are a few parts that should be removed for better access.  Take your time and use caution.  Do not cut anything!

I did end up scratching the plastics a little by not removing everything.  Next time I'll likely remove just for the experience if I have the free time.

[minkster]

I gave the tube a tug upwards, but it wouldn't budge, the garage is cold right now, so maybe I should warm things up to make the rubber more flexible.  There is that tube cover that looks like it moves up and down and might expose a connection, but it won't budge either. 

[cyow5]

3 hours ago, minkster said:

I gave the tube a tug upwards, but it wouldn't budge, the garage is cold right now, so maybe I should warm things up to make the rubber more flexible.  There is that tube cover that looks like it moves up and down and might expose a connection, but it won't budge either. 

When you squeeze the little one with pliers, it also pushes it harder on the nipple. Make sure you are trying to lift it up and off by the lower edge of the small tube rather than by pinching and lifting. You can also use a flathead to get it started. 

[DewMan]

Sometimes giving the tube a twist left and right with pliers, being careful to not damage the hose,  helps to break the  seal between the hose and the nipple. 

 

There are also dedicated tools like these Hose removal pliers that can be a big help.

 

Good luck.

Edited November 13, 2018 by DewMan

[sorkyah]

On 11/13/2018 at 9:04 AM, DewMan said:

Sometimes giving the tube a twist left and right with pliers, being careful to not damage the hose,  helps to break the  seal between the hose and the nipple. 

 

There are also dedicated tools like these Hose removal pliers that can be a big help.

 

Good luck.">

thought those were body clip pliers.... also dont think they would fit in the space required 
when i think of hose removal, i think of these
https://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-34435-2-Inch-Pliers-Diameter/dp/B00YQ7S52S
come in diff sizes and lengths

 

[DewMan]

1 hour ago, sorkyah said:

thought those were body clip pliers.... also dont think they would fit in the space required 
when i think of hose removal, i think of these
https://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-34435-2-Inch-Pliers-Diameter/dp/B00YQ7S52S
come in diff sizes and lengths

 

My dream toolbox would have both options.

[r1limited]

14 hours ago, sorkyah said:

thought those were body clip pliers.... also dont think they would fit in the space required 
when i think of hose removal, i think of these
https://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-34435-2-Inch-Pliers-Diameter/dp/B00YQ7S52S
come in diff sizes and lengths

 

So I guess this is a no no

 

[sorkyah]

7 hours ago, r1limited said:

So I guess this is a no no ">

 

 

You do you, aint gonna stahp  ya

but it'll look mightee conspicuous when your thrahtle bahdee is chopped in half while tryeeng to get a vacoom hose ahff

 

[r1limited]

11 minutes ago, sorkyah said:

You do you, aint gonna stahp  ya

but it'll look mightee conspicuous when your thrahtle bahdee is chopped in half while tryeeng to get a vacoom hose ahff

 

pull the cable with yer bear hanz

[trxman]

So, as far as I understood, original position of left do-not-touch screw is ~350 degrees (a bit to the left of motorcycle's direction)?

[Spatt]

If you sync a lot of bikes the carbtune pro is awesome.  I wouldn’t buy it to use once but I bet I use it every other month.  It’s weighted steel rods and really quick to use. 
 

CARBTUNE PRO 4 W/Pouch https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018UTHGPE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_MBG5Eb9QARS83

[ElGonzales]

I think the adjustment of the left throttle body is done by the factory, maybe depending to the value the connected MAP sensor  delivers (?). And I don't think it is exactly in the same position at every bike.

[fzar]

3 hours ago, Spatt said:

If you sync a lot of bikes the carbtune pro is awesome.  I wouldn’t buy it to use once but I bet I use it every other month.  It’s weighted steel rods and really quick to use. 
 

CARBTUNE PRO 4 W/Pouch https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018UTHGPE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_MBG5Eb9QARS83

Interesting piece of equipment.

[Spatt]

2 hours ago, fzar said:

Interesting piece of equipment.

I love it.  I wont sync throttle bodies any other way.  They arent cheap but not expensive really either.

[Spatt]

On 11/13/2018 at 6:52 AM, minkster said:

I gave the tube a tug upwards, but it wouldn't budge, the garage is cold right now, so maybe I should warm things up to make the rubber more flexible.  There is that tube cover that looks like it moves up and down and might expose a connection, but it won't budge either. 

Easier to pull it at the pressure sensor on the frame and put a T in line.

[Yakko Warner]

Newb question here (apologies in advance).

Just to confirm before I begin tugging on things, I should pull off the tube where the yellow ellipse is in my picture, not the red ellipse, is that correct?

Many thanks in advance.