How to: FZ-07 throttle body sync

[rick]

Yep but that can only set the balance right at the bottom at tick over, but maybe they don't need a high speed adjustment as they can set them up at the factory I will
have a look see if I can see a adjustment but suspect there isn't one. Done a BMW and
a Kawasaki recently and they both did so that's why I asked just used to doing both.

I'm kinda curious as to which BMW you are referring to. The R bikes (as well as Guzzi 11/1200s) need to be able to do this as the throttle bodies are so far apart. But the Rotax made F800 parallel twins, which will have a more similar set-up to FZ, are fixed at the factory. And that's done on a flow bench, way more sensitive than anyone's vac gauges. Mess with those screws and it might never be right again. The K bikes, up until at least the early 2000s, were the same way. 
 
Keep in mind, the ECU sets the idle speed, not the throttle stop screw(s). I haven't looked, but I'll bet it's been painted.  

[Guest Ralph]

Done a few R bikes the early ones with the cross cable were fun, worked on a F800 a few weeks back but
it was a front sprocket change did not get involved with the injection, seem to remember the Versys
did not have a centre adjustment, the W800 does, sounds like the 07 dont still not looked must have
a play as mine does stall but is getting better at 2500 miles

[rick]

I had a couple of airhead R's over 2 decades and then a K (the biggest, most beautiful POS ever built), but I've actually never done an injected R. Came very close to buying a Griso so did a lot of reading on them. They have an arm that runs across to allow syncing at 3 or 4K rpm before syncing with the air screw. But the TPS is on the adjusted side so if that's changed during a TB sync, you need to get into the ECU to rest the TPS. Not a huge deal, but another layer of complexity for sure. Still love the looks of the Griso and may yet own one some day, but bought the FZ instead. No regrets so far.
 
My Aprilia uses a single throttle body with 2 individual bores/throttle plates. There's just a solid rod going from one side to the other so nothing to touch except for the one air screw.
 
Wonder how long it will take to get to a valve inspection, lol? If it's anything like that Rotax twin of mine, they'll get looked at once and never again.

[Guest Ralph]

The air heads from the ones I have ridden were quite variable best I ever rode was a ex road test one
that I owned a early R850R it spun up like a turbine and went like the wind, should never have sold
that it had 48000 miles when we parted company, if you mean the 07's valves the book says 24000 and
I will think about it then but listening to it it sounds like they are set up on the loose side so
will see what they sound like when the time comes, it's the quiet ones that worry me.

[rick]

After 10 years of listening to the clatter my Rotax makes (and they all do it from the git-go), it's actually kinda funny that you think these tappets are on the loose side. Even though it's completely hid inside the body work of that Futura, the motor is so mechanically loud that even earplugs and wind noise coming off the short screen can't completely hide. To my ears (with and w/o plugs) the FZ motor is tight as drum and surprisingly devoid of that sewing machine effect. It's fun listening to the exhaust note (that sounds very Duckwaddy-like) for a change.
 
I'm gonna take Yamaha at it's word and not go near those valves until those miles get racked up.
 
After 30+ years of BMWs, don't see another another in my future. Though I wish I still had [HASH]2, an '82 R100RS.

[Guest Ralph]

Does the Rotax you have use roller cam followers they were always noisy on the 500 singles but never broke.

[rick]

Nope, yer basic shim under bucket double overhead cams w/4 valves per pot. (those shims are the same size as the ones used in the Porsche designed VRod motors - ssshhhh, don't tell the Hardley guys) . Everyone seems to think the noise comes from the balancer shaft that spins in the rear cylinder head with the cams. There's some endplay in the shaft on all of 'em. Some are worse than others. But it's quite a sound. Mine was a demo w/700 miles on the clock when I bought it. After my test ride, I told the shop guy it sounded like it had a worn out piston, slapping its brains out.
 
The cam chains are also notorious for making some noise as the tensioners have no mechanical mechanism, just work with oil pressure. At idle, and only at idle with the helmet on, I can hear one of those chains tick non-rhythmically. Can only guess the helmet (and it doesn't matter who's name is on the front) filters out some of the other sounds enough to let me hear this. .
 
That said, these 990s are reliable mills that use no oil and virtually never lose adjustment on the valves - lots of guys with 60k + miles and still in spec. Those Austrians know their motors.
 
The made in Spain FI is great when it's right. When it's not, it's a nightmare to diagnose. There's a relay for everything (one relay even just fires another) and the coils were modified stick coils from some Fiat or some such thing we can't get here. 2 cylinders, 4 expensive coils. If the outer coil fails you might not notice. If the center one goes, well, it becomes an unhappy 500 single. W/o a forum like this, there'd be a lot of dead Aprilias I'm afraid.
 
Fortunately, mine was made on a good day. It runs great, I can get 45-50 mpg w/o ever seeing 6th gear. And it's geared for a legit 150 mph. Comically slow nowadays. lol
 
I let out a pretty hearty laugh the 1st time I filled the FZ. I'm also getting upwards of 65 mpg - and that's US gallons.

[ksy222]

I just did the TB sync. I got them to be the same vacuum at idle but if I give any revs the clutch-side cylinder would pull way more vacuum than the other. Is this normal? Should I sync them at normal cruising rpm then? Right now the idle is smooth but any time other than idle the TBs are not synced. Is there any expert here who can chime in on what possible issues my bike could have? Or give any suggestions on the pros and cons of syncing TBs at idle or normal operating rpm?
 
Thanks a bunch

[Guest Ralph]

Service book makes no mention of setting them at anything other than tick over,
you only adjust using the right hand TPS side screw, and they should not exceed 1.33 kpa or
10 mmHg difference but there does not seem to be any way of adjusting the high speed sync
like there was on older designs.

[rick]

Those screws are there only to make up for manufacturing variances at idle when the throttle plates are completely closed. The bulk of the air needed at idle goes thru that idle air control valve that sits right between the TBs on top (Yamaha calls it something else - the name escapes me at the moment) .
 
KSY, if the RPMs are held constant at say 3 or 4k, is the vacuum on the left side still higher or does this happen only as the throttle is just opened. .
 
Whether it's FI or carbs, the vacuum will be at it's highest with respect to revs when the throttles are closed cause yer reading between the back of that plate and the draw of the motor. Whatever the variations, they really should decrease as the throttles are opened.
 
Yep, there are some bikes that allow some adjustment between the 2 TBs get get them synced at 4k ( a Guzzi Griso for example). My Aprilia and this Yamaha are not on that list.
 
One thing you can do, is check for a vac leak at the connector tube (manifold if you will) between theTBs and the motor. Shouldn't happen on a new motor, but maybe a clamp or screw wasn't as tight as it should be. Spray some carb cleaner (actually, i know guys who use propane gas) directly at those junctions. If it causes the motor to change speed for a second or 2 (or even stumble) you'll have an air leak that can cause this. Can also havea look at that IAC's mount. Though an air leak would more likely be uniform to both cylinders.
 
Oh, one other thing - have you tried to flip your gauges? Does the difference stay on the same cylinder. Cause if it also flops, it's yer gauges
 
One of these days, winter will go away and I can have a better look at mine. I figure it's due.
 
 

[ksy222]

Appreciate the quick replies, Ralph and Rick!
 
I didn't use a real manometer that has measurements. I home-made one with a wood board and a long tube. I then poured 10w-40 motorcycle oil into my U-tube manometer. So the only thing I could tell/adjust was the difference in vacuum between the TBs and not the actual measurements.
 
When I gave the engine any rev, the left cylinder would pulled more vacuum relative to the right. Meaning the oil would rise in the left side of the U-tube and drop on the right. They might have very well both decreased their absolute vacuum level like you said, Rick. But I had no way of telling that. Also, the difference in vacuum would appear as soon as I rev it and kept rising until about 4k rpm. Above 4k it didn't seem to change anymore. This was at constant throttle.
 
FWIW, the inner diameter of the tube I used was 0.17". 10w-40 oil was used for visualization. After synced at idle, the largest difference in vacuum between cylinders at 4k rpm was about 5". Anyone know how much that is in mmHg?
 
Again, thanks for all the help in advance!

[ksy222]

So I guess my ultimate question is that is it normal for one cylinder to pull more and more vacuum RELATIVE to the other until 4k rpm and stay there? Should I be worried? Is it different for every engine (manufacture tolerance), or is it by design to do so? Is there any FZ-07 out there that achieved sync at idle and all the way throughout rev range?

[Guest Ralph]

If the bike runs fine and because you cant adjust it even if you wanted to I
would ignore it, the only fix is new throttle body's and the new ones could
be worse.
Ride on and don't even think about it.
 

[rick]

We can assume the motor was fully up to operating temp when you checked. I'll usually do this after a decent ride and have all the tools and a big fan waiting at home for me.
 
I'd still be tempted to flip that manometer set-up around - but that's just how I think.
 
BTW, if you just give the throttle a quick blip, the vac will drop for a second and then quickly jump after the motor speed catches up with your right hand. Manifold vacuum is at its highest when the throttles are shut and the motor is up in the revs
 
I suspect you could convert your set-up to an absolute mm of Hg. But you'd need to be able to accurately weigh a carefully measured volume of that oil and an equal amount of mercury and then do some math - meh, too much to think on w/o any real benefit.
 
So, gonna agree with Ralph. Sounds like you have them nicely balanced at idle, so it should start up and idle well. If it's running ok otherwise, aside from maybe looking for a vac leak, just ride it.
 
 

[Guest Ralph]

Not sure when but when I do mine I will check how far it is out at higher revs.

[ksy222]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.
 
Yes, the engine was up to temp when I synced the TBs. The range of temp was from 174F to 220F (at which point the radiator fan kicked in) since the bike was stationary and I was revving the engine on and off. I would say when I was finally done playing around with the rev range and decided to sync the TBs at 1200 idle rpm, the engine temp was on the high side of the temp range, definitely above 200F. Not sure if the slightly-higher-than-normal operating temp affected anything.
 
I guess the only thing left for me to check is the vacuum leak although I don't suspect it. And that I need to flip the manometer and check sync again. But like you guys said, I took the bike out for a ride and it rode well so I'm just gonna not worry about it too much.
 
But yes, Ralph, please let me know when you get a chance to sync the TBs and see if yours does the same thing.

[rick]

I'll check at 4k as well when I get to mine. Sadly, winter is a long way from being done here.
 
Just out of curiosity, were you having the stalling issue plaguing many of us? And more important has the sync procedure (at least at idle) made that history.
 
I'm really having a hard time getting my thick head around how you could have such a variance between cylinders @4k. That you are using a U tube which basically winds up being a push-pull situation, it would actually look worse if those tubes were separate.
 
The easiest thing to get wrong with assembling those TBs would be for one of the throttle plates to not be fully closed when the other is nicely sealed. All (well, dang near all)of the air at idle goes thru that IAC and not past the throttle plates. But if that happened, I would think that it might be hard to adjust the vacuum at idle - there might not be enough adjustment with that right TB screw. And I would think it would only take maybe 3/4 turn or so for sync to be achieved.
 
I might also turn that screw all the way in when I do mine to see how many turns it needs to be out to get synced. They should all be in the same ballpark I'd think. Think it also might not hurt to make sure the left side screw is all the way seated (with a light hand on the driver of course)
 
But yeah, ride the dang thing and be happy you can. It's snowing here and only suppose to be 5F tomorrow. .
 
 

[Guest Ralph]

Right did mine today, it was about spot on at tick over I did give it a very slight
tweak and then it was spot on but don't think it really needed it, that's at tick over
I then checked at 2,3,4000 revs in all cases one of the cylinders pulled more vac
as I opened the throttle the right one I think it was, but hold the revs steady at
those revs and the other cylinder came back to very close to level, ran the bike it
seems just the same as it was before sync, I expected it to be out as it is one of
those that stalls now and then.
 
I used T pieces to connect the pipes as on the UK bike they have a vac operated
valve on the air box to get round noise regs don't know if yours as but some don't,
so I used the T's so that everything was connected. 
 
On my Morini 350 you can adjust both high and low speed vac but no matter how much
you mess with it you cant get it even close to the accuracy of the Yamaha and the
little Morini runs like a watch.
 
 

[rick]

That's exactly what I'd expect to hear about. That wee bit of variance just as the throttle is opened has got to be just a hair of imperfection with how the 2 throttle plates were "set" in that slot in the pivot. But once the plates are open, any variation should disappear. And I would expect that the more the plates are open, the better the sync should be.
 
So I'm curious about this valve in the airbox. Is this where that hose on the left side TB goes to? I just assumed it operated a vac diaphragm on the fuel pressure regulator ( a common thing these days) . I've just a rubber cap on the right TB. Sounds like you have hoses going to both TBs. But a T is a good idea regardless when those hoses go somewhere else.
 
The TB on my Futura is pretty much a solid lump and there's no adjusting anything other than idle vac. When that motor was new-ish, the TBs were so well synced, you could calibrate gauges with it. Don't think I've ever seen a sync done so perfectly from any factory.
 
Good news that yours was built well. - Guess the fuel mileage is an indication of that as well as you doing a super job at break-in. But I guess we'll be looking elsewhere, unfportunately for the cough and stall issue.

[Guest Ralph]

In the service book it says something about "idle speed learning" now then by the time mine had
reached about 1000 miles it stopped stalling but at about 2000 miles it had a new battery lead
due to a recall, on the way home it stalled twice, I wonder if it learns and that's why it stopped
stalling but when they disconnected the battery it had to start again.
 
Yes mine as a hose on each body it controls a flap valve on the back of the air box just under the
front of the seat this is open most of the time but when it closes it breaths through a snorkel
just like yours but the open end of the snorkel points forward not back like yours bikes, on UK
bikes they claim 74 HP are yours the same? if not this could be why.
 
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee111/G7ied/DSCF5562_zpsed7bde96.jpg
 
the vac pipe goes to a control valve then to the silver actuator in the pic just
under the back of the tank on the air box.
 
I am a big believer in running a bike in, all this MotorMan stuff is fine if you want as much power
as possible and don't intend to keep it long, over the years as a engineer I have seen 2 tests
were identical engines one run in the other run hard from go then striped and I know which I
will go for every time.

[rick]

Mine does not have that little silver dashpot. So that's very interesting that they'd have 2 set-ups. You'd think that we'd be more noise restrictive here in the states.
 
I think my break-in was somewhere between that Motorman damn the torpedoes method and babying the thing. I did a lot of mid-torque riding intermixed with a lot of 3rd and 4th gear slamming the throttle closed while going downhill. I do believe creating back pressure is important to get those rings seated. I've opened enough motors that still had visible cross-hatching on the cylinder walls to think that the gentle method might just be a little too gentle.
 
My Aprilia was a demo model with 700 miles on it when I bought it. Something tells me it was run in quickly and maybe with some gusto. It runs great and never uses a drop of oil.
 
I'm also getting mid-60s fuel mileage. I stood at the gas pump and had a good double take and chuckle after my 1st full tank's worth. Kinda wished I'd changed the oil sooner than at 500 miles though. I did add a magnetic plug at that time though.
 
So, the learned thing in the ECU is usually the LTFT - long term fuel trim. The STFT (short term fuel trim) is what sees the O2 sensor all the time and in closed loop this is what controls the duration of the injectors on a second by second look. The SFTF is never stored. But the ecu thinks the motor is running out of what it wants as optimum air fuel ratio as read by the O2 sensor, it's the LTFT that adjusts over top of the STFT
 
So, say there's an small air leak somewhere ( a loose oil filler cap qualifies, btw) or the fuel pressure regulator on this motor is a bit higher(or lower) than standard or the air filter is clogged etc, even a low battery charge or a weak connection or a wonky temp sensor somewhere. - anything that might change air or fuel delivery. Well the LTFT sees this over a long term, adjusts to correct for whatever over the long term and remembers for the next run.
 
I would not think that the learned LTFT adjustment would be lost just by removing the battery cable. I think it's saved in the flash memory of the ecu. Don't know for sure though. So that could be wrong. The STFT starts over as soon as the key is switched off and then on again. That I'm sure of. This is all a bit voodoo for an old biochemist like me.
 
 
 
 
 

[Guest Ralph]

Yes I have a magnetic sump plug worth every penny, with the air box it pulls air from
the back under the seat it's quite noticeable the draft with the seat off then at certain
revs it closes and just pulls air through the snorkel then opens again at higher revs.
 

[rick]

I discarded the emailed link. But Cycle World just put their FZ07 on a dyno and got 65 hp with 45 ft-lbs torque. Sounds pathetic by today's hyperbikes. But this thing makes plenty of power for 95% of my riding needs. Don't think I'll be hauling a passenger anytime soon though.

[Guest Ralph]

Well I did about 55 miles today and that very slight tweak has made a difference,
it picks up smoother from tick over and will accelerate from lower speeds in the
gears without any sign of snatching, you call it lugging the adjustment I made was
so small I really did not expect to feel a difference but you can, so yes it's worth
doing and it's worth getting spot on, I have hopes it may have cured the odd stall
I have been having it certainly picks up better from tick over, pleased with the result.

[rick]

Well that's downright good news. I should think the sync will not change much after some initial wearing in of bits. With luck, the stalling issue will only rear it's ugly head when the sync needs some fine tuning. Maybe we can even use it as a diagnostic -- it's stalling, time to get out the gauges.
 
Mine never stalled in the 1st few hundred miles. But I feel like it's sorta in need of a good syncing just by feel - I've owned twins in one format or another for decades. I tend to trust those feelings at this point.
 
So, something to look forward to when it's no longer 0F. Dang it's cold.