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87 Octane w/ Flashed ECU


philthyphil

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You don't need 91 oct. In fact, the FZ runs best on 87.
By changing the exhaust to a more open type of exhaust, there is less back pressure, and the engine will run cooler, and lower PSI.
That makes that you can run even lower octane fuel (if it existed), not higher.
The fuel commander would add only marginally more fuel in the mid range, to get the lean burn out, but that gives only a very small HP increase (3 to 5 HP).
 
So, I'd say, no.
91 oct is nothing more but a $$$ waste; and even the cheapest fuel has higher octane than necessary.
If you want to be safe, get mid-grade; when racing all out, but if it's used as a regular daily commuter, 87 oct (regular) is the way to go.
 
 

The last question regarding flashed ECUs and recommendations thereof,  concerns more than fueling, When you flash an ECU there are many engine parameters that are changed apparently requiring a higher octane to access the potential of the basically remapped ECU and avoid pinging which some tuners have noticed on the FZ07... Stock bike with a pipe and fueling device may be another animal. 
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The fuel commander would add only marginally more fuel in the mid range, to get the lean burn out, but that gives only a very small HP increase (3 to 5 HP). 
So, I'd say, no.
91 oct is nothing more but a $$$ waste
 
 
The ecu reflash also advances ignition timing - I would follow the tuner's advice.
 
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The ecu reflash also advances ignition timing - I would follow the tuner's advice.

 
 
Nels has never came out and said this. If it's true I wish he would. As it is I run 89 now that I'm reflashed to compromise.
 
I'd also like to know what RPM the pinging was seen on the dyno on 87. I've heard what sounds like pinging at EXTREME low rpm, almost from idle when given full throttle. Still there with 89 gas.
 
 

Got new red 2015 FZ-07 on 7/22/16!
Black 2006 Honda ST1300 53K miles.

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The ecu reflash also advances ignition timing - I would follow the tuner's advice.
Nels has never came out and said this. If it's true I wish he would. As it is I run 89 now that I'm reflashed to compromise.
 
I'd also like to know what RPM the pinging was seen on the dyno on 87. I've heard what sounds like pinging at EXTREME low rpm, almost from idle when given full throttle. Still there with 89 gas.
 

Quote from 2WDYNOWORKS web page on the FZ07 flash, timing is adjusted and advanced, among many other parameters, 
"We found massive inconsistent timing curves from the factory, so we
went and individually by cylinder and gear smoothed timing, removed
the retards, smoothed the curves, and removed all of the limitations."
 
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You'd think, with an open type of exhaust, the cylinders would have less remaining hot exhaust in them, and the fuel has less of a chance on self igniting.
Higher octane fuel only helps pinging.
Advanced timing is not like pinging, where the fuel would self ignite, but the spark plug just fires a fraction earlier, in which case it doesn't matter what kind of fuel you're using; as both fuel types will combust at the same time.
The internal PSI is lower, despite more fuel being in there, the air/fuel mix temp is lower..
I see no reason why it would benefit changing from regular fuel to a higher octane.
 
Would like to see some sort of explanation on that...

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You'd think, with an open type of exhaust, the cylinders would have less remaining hot exhaust in them, and the fuel has less of a chance on self igniting. Higher octane fuel only helps pinging.
Advanced timing is not like pinging, where the fuel would self ignite, but the spark plug just fires a fraction earlier, in which case it doesn't matter what kind of fuel you're using; as both fuel types will combust at the same time.
The internal PSI is lower, despite more fuel being in there, the air/fuel mix temp is lower..
I see no reason why it would benefit changing from regular fuel to a higher octane.
 
Would like to see some sort of explanation on that...
high octane fuels allow for advanced ignition timing. What this means is the spark is fired well before the piston reaches top dead center on the compression stroke. The reason this is done is because it takes time for the flame front to expand out and combust the air fuel mixture. If you start this process in advance of the piston reaching top dead center, you can increase the maximum pressure the cylinder will have once the air-fuel mixture is fully compressed (and traveling downward), and this will result in increased power. Obviously you do not want to detonate too early, as you’ll be applying pressure in the wrong direction, but if you ignite too late, you’re losing valuable torque. 
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I'm thinking that hi-oct fuels detonate almost identical to regular fuels.
Maybe tenths of a second later.
I don't want to be difficult, but I've read very little about hi-oct being anywhere related to advanced timing.
Yes, you possibly could advance the timing by half a degree or so, with higher octane (due to it's slower detonation), but should get similar power output out of both (some motorcycles would eg: run regular with 2.8 degrees, and hi oct with 3 deg advanced timing, and have the same power gains).
 
Most motorcycles indeed ignite 'too late' as they need to have a safety margin, so that pre detonation wouldn't happen.
In case of pre detonation, the engine will run hotter, maybe to the point where new air/fuel mixture will self combust.
If the pinging is mild, like on one of my scooters, it will run very well with hi-octane fuels.
It will run cooler; while regular fuel might pre detonate too early, causing pinging (as well as a loss of power, and an engine temperature increase, that could potentially damage pistons, if the fuel combusts too early).
 
That's what I understand under it all...
 
As far as the choice to switch over to hi-octane fuel, for as long as predetonation is not happening, it would only be needed, if compression ratio somehow is increased, or there's more back pressure in the exhaust (or the engine runs too hot).

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level41,
The whole point of higher octane fuels is that they detonate later AND slower than lower. BECAUSE of this to get optimium cyl pressure you MUST advance the ignition activation ( spark) to reach full burn and heat transfer to the non burning air ( mostly nitrogen), the expansion of which is mostly responsible for the increase of pressure in the cyl.
The difference in optimium dentonation times are measured in thousanths of a second, not tenths. At even only 6000rpm the complete expansion cycle takes only a 1/200 of a second.
I assume you scooters are 4 strokes. 2 stroke motors rarely produce enough compression to ping. They will burn hi octane fuel VERY slowly. No advantage and complete waste of money , fuel and increase carbonation. They will however lubricate better.
 

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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pineappleunderthesea

in terms of whether or not different octane fuels can help with timing, etc, here's an example: back in the nineties I had a Pontiac Firefly (no, not a Firebird, but a Firefly. Basically the equivalent of the 3-cylinder Geo Metro). At one point I started hearing a tic-tic-tic sound when letting go of the accelerator. I noticed that the sound went away when I put 89 or 91 octane instead of 87. So I kept running it with 89 for a couple months until I had an oil change and mentioned the tic-tic issue to the shop. Ends up my timing belt had slipped half a notch or something, but the higher octane I was putting in was making up for it.
 
So the experience did teach me that different octane fuels can certainly take advantage of an ECU tune playing around with timing.

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Sure, one of my scooters was pinging.
People online complained of burned pistons within months.
At one fuel interval, I fueled up with regular, and could literally hear the oil boiling in the crankcase (the water in the oil was popping, like putting a frozen hot dog in a frying pan).
Once I changed to hi-octane, the engine temps dropped considerably, and top speed increased to almost +7MPH.
 
But coming back on the original topic of the thread, I understand the very small advance in timing that can be done when running hi-octane fuels, just to optimize the burn.
But rather than play around with the timing to suit the bike to run Hi-Octane fuels, why not leave it as it is, and run regular?
It's obvious that the bike is made for regular, if you need to change the timing on the bike to get better performance out of hi-octane fuel?
 
I still believe that hi-octane fuels originally were created, to compensate regular fuel from burning too early.
The main reason was in high-rev cars, at high loads, predetonation due to high heat was less common with high octane fuels.
 
Also a too high compression ratio (eg: 12:1), to make the engine run more efficiently, could result in predetonation, which is a bit related to the next problem:
A too high PSI (because of restricted exhaust, or forced induction (aka turbo/supercharger)), the boost in PSI causes a higher than usual amount of air/fuel in the cylinder, causing the energy to be more dense, and possibly self detonate...
In both forced induction, and higher compression ratio, the incoming air can be compressed to the point of self combustion; which is less likely to occur with hi-octane fuels, as they can resist higher temperatures.
 
Not sure if I'm making a point here, or just organizing my thought :/
 
 

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Sure, one of my scooters was pinging. People online complained of burned pistons within months.
At one fuel interval, I fueled up with regular, and could literally hear the oil boiling in the crankcase (the water in the oil was popping, like putting a frozen hot dog in a frying pan).
Once I changed to hi-octane, the engine temps dropped considerably, and top speed increased to almost +7MPH.
 
But coming back on the original topic of the thread, I understand the very small advance in timing that can be done when running hi-octane fuels, just to optimize the burn.
But rather than play around with the timing to suit the bike to run Hi-Octane fuels, why not leave it as it is, and run regular?
It's obvious that the bike is made for regular, if you need to change the timing on the bike to get better performance out of hi-octane fuel?
 
I still believe that hi-octane fuels originally were created, to compensate regular fuel from burning too early.
The main reason was in high-rev cars, at high loads, predetonation due to high heat was less common with high octane fuels.
 
Also a too high compression ratio (eg: 12:1), to make the engine run more efficiently, could result in predetonation, which is a bit related to the next problem:
A too high PSI (because of restricted exhaust, or forced induction (aka turbo/supercharger)), the boost in PSI causes a higher than usual amount of air/fuel in the cylinder, causing the energy to be more dense, and possibly self detonate...
In both forced induction, and higher compression ratio, the incoming air can be compressed to the point of self combustion; which is less likely to occur with hi-octane fuels, as they can resist higher temperatures.
 
Not sure if I'm making a point here, or just organizing my thought :/
 

You're arguing for the sake of argument now, the facts have been stated, your requested explanation has been given at least twice, give it up. You can choose your OWN path, but there are good reasons for using higher octane with a flashed ECU. It boils down to engineering not opinion. lets move on please... 
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Ah, lost track of what we were talking about.
 
Well, I'll then conclude that,
The question was, if hi octane is necessary with a performance exhaust, then the answer is 'no'.
And unless the ECU is reprogrammed to have it's timing advanced, the answer still is 'no'.
 
I haven't heard of fuel controllers doing an advance in timing, but I don't exclude the possibility.
 
Hope I got that right....

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Ah, lost track of what we were talking about. 
Well, I'll then conclude that,
The question was, if hi octane is necessary with a performance exhaust, then the answer is 'no'.
And unless the ECU is reprogrammed to have it's timing advanced, the answer still is 'no'.
 
I haven't heard of fuel controllers doing an advance in timing, but I don't exclude the possibility.
 
Hope I got that right....
 
 
 
the graves dynojet pcv tune they developed has timing advances of +2 to +4 across the rpm range at throttle positions over 20%. There is no(to my knowledge) recommended increase in octane when using this tune. Hordpowers tunes uses timing advances as well with it optimized for 87 octane although I've not looked or have seen the maps. His quote I read once somewhere was "these engines like a little bit of timing"
 
2WDW suggests using higher octane (premium) fuel for their specific tunes,it's likely that tune may have a more aggressive timing advances ..idk.
 
 
 
Here is an image of the ignition portion of the Graves tune: https://postimg.org/image/wo761rv9j/
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My 2 cents is find a non-ethonol source of 87 octane fuel and run that stock or on an ecu flash/ pcv tune. I have EJK so I've no timing advances. I have however run premium fuel a few times and noticed that the bike ran "meh" where as since I've started using non-ethanol fuel it runs smoother somehow and everything feels snappy and healthy and really really well and it builds power better somehow.

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First in most of the world, running non ethanol gas is not an option, so While it may be a choice for some it is not a solution in itself. Secondly, pay attention to the tuner who flashed your ECU, He will have set timing values and recommend octane ratings for your set up. There is no one size fits all.
and thirdly, References to 2WheelDynoWorks, Nels, for those who don't know, has tuned and flashed thousands of bikes, his reputation with FTECU is stellar and they have told me he is one of the most regarded tuners on the West coast or anywhere. He doesn't just flash FZ/MT07s, he tunes bikes from Harleys to Kawasaki H2s. This is not to disparage or disrespect other flash services, they will most likely do a good job, follow their advice, not anyone on a forum. The point is, if 2WDWs says your flash needs 95 RON, then use it.
 
The facts remain as cited above regarding advanced timing and higher octane fuels.

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Well, obviously there are different kinds of flashing the bike. Perhaps of your bike is flashed by 2WDW, you need 95 Oct (strange, because we can only get upto 91 here, 93 sometimes in summer), but a lot of times regular works just fine.
 
 
I've noted as well, changing sprockets, that some bikes run more smoothly with a heavier load. Which means the factory timing is set too late. Smoothness of the engine vibrations, does tell you something about how much the factory the factory timing is set up, and engine temp heat and peak performance says something about if there's too much advance in timing (worst case, jerky power distribution at low RPM.

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Well, obviously there are different kinds of flashing the bike. Perhaps of your bike is flashed by 2WDW, you need 95 Oct (strange, because we can only get upto 91 here, 93 sometimes in summer), but a lot of times regular works just fine. 
 
I've noted as well, changing sprockets, that some bikes run more smoothly with a heavier load. Which means the factory timing is set too late. Smoothness of the engine vibrations, does tell you something about how much the factory the factory timing is set up, and engine temp heat and peak performance says something about if there's too much advance in timing (worst case, jerky power distribution at low RPM.
95 RON, not AKI, check your region. AKI is (RON + MON)/2
 
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