Battery issues

[roadrunner]

Hello!
 
 
For the past few months I've been having some really annoying issues with starting my bike. I can't really pinpoint exactly when it started, but i tihnk it might have something to do with one time months ago when i was testing something and i kept starting/turning off the engine, without going on any long ride(maybe went around the block once). Once i was done i just put the bike away and didnt use it for like a week or 2 The next time i tried riding, the engine wouldnt start.and the more i tried, the more the lights on the dash kept dimming.
 
So I figured it was a battery thing. took it to a shop about a block away(i didnt have a charger yet), they charged it, turned it on, told me to ride it for a while, and then i went home. a week later i tried using it again, bike started fine, but once i got to my first stop, abuot 17 miles away, i got gas, turned it on and rode up a small driveway(the shell station at ACH) to check my phone, i turned it off. once i was ready to go again, tried turning it on and again, engine wouldn't start. Someone helped me jump start it(i had no experience on this, now i have plenty lol). rode home, and just put it away. for the next few weeks i sort of ignored the issue and just hoped it would turn on, it always did at home, but once i got somewhere and stopped for a break, then tried leaving, again it wouldnt start. im usually always in the canyons, so i could always jump start it.
 
I finally got around to buying a battery tender, and started charging it about 3  weeks ago. i charged it to full(took about 2 hours or less, it started in red, but within 20 minutes was flashing green, then idk how much longer it took to get solid green, but the total was around 2 hours), but didnt ride. a week later again i charged it to full, and it only took like 10 minutes, so i dont think it lost a lot of energy. i still didnt ride though. 
 
now sunday(one week later) i tried riding, and like a dummy i didnt charge it because i figured it wasnt losing much energy anyway. started up fine, i rode about 40 miles, stopped for a break. about 20 minutes later i decided to do some runs(the snake), and again it wouldnt start. had to jump start it, did like 4 passes, then took another break. abuot 10 minutes later i left for home, and it started just fine. 
 
So i dont get whats going on. the only other thing i can tihnk of is to fully charge it, then ride, see how that goes, and also get a voltmeter and run tests with that. i dont mind buying another battery if need be, i just want to make sure it is the battery and not the stator or something else.
 
anybody else ever run into these issues?
 
 
EDIT: the only extra electric stuff connected to my bike is the PCV 5. but i've had the on there WAY before i had these issues, the pcv has never been a problem.

[rick]

Unlike your cell phone battery, these AGM (any lead acid battery for that matter) batteries do not like getting discharged. If they sit with a low voltage charge, the plates will get a layer of sulfate that prevents them from gaining a full charge again. It's possible your battery will never be fully healthy again.
 
You should also check what the charge voltage at 4k RPMs that the battery sees while in the bike. If that's not at least 14V DC, you could have a faulty regulator or stator. There might be a fuse that's in the charge circuit. If the voltage is just battery voltage (12 something) check this as well.
 
Are you not able to leave the battery on the tender? That's what they are made for. The battery will always be ready no matter how long the bike sits.
 
There is always a small parasitic draw from the ECU and circuitry that keeps the clock in the dash happy, so w/o being on a tender, the battery will slowly get drained as it sits. If it's not practical to keep it on the charger and yer gonna let the bike sit for weeks and weeks, pull the main 30A fuse. And keep in mind, no other electrical circuit on the bike draws more watts than the starter motor. Fire it up a bunch w/o riding or recharging, and you can expect bad things to happen eventually

[roadrunner]

...

You reminded me of my other question, I did research earlier and read about the plate thing and build up, im ready to switch batteries, but first i wanted to test everything. So my question is, what are all the correct voltages i should be seeing while doing the test? 
bike on/ engine off = ?
bike on/ starting engine = ?
bike on/ engine idle = ?
bike on/ engine under load (4k rpm) = 14V DC
bike off = lol ?
 
unfortunately i cant leave the tender on it. the place where i store the bike has no power, and running extension cord wont work with the type of neighbors i have..
 
so basically if i missed anything on testing the full picture, battery, stator/bike, please let me know! i'm not sure where i can find the stats if its not in the manual(checking when i get home).
 
Thanks!! 

[rick]

A happy AGM battery will have something like 12.8V at rest. Wouldn't worry too much what the voltage drop at start-up is. It will likely drop quite a bit while the starter is running.
 
At idle, w/o the cooling fan, I think mine runs about 13.5 to 13.8V or so and only takes another 1k RPM to bump into the 14s. Any charge voltage between 14 and 14.5 at 4k is fine.
 
Would have to look it up, but output of the stator will be something like 60V AC (not DC volts) on each of the 3 phases. There will be 3 wires going from the stator to the regulator. With the stator disconnected from the regulator, you would measure the AC voltage output on each pair of wires (3 pairs total) - Really not likely that this has failed so soon in this bike's life.
 
So with it not practical to have the tender run full time, I would either pull the main fuse (you'll lose the clock) or pull the battery and take it in where you can leave it on the tender. Again, you'll lose the clock.
 
I have a decent voltmeter that lives in my shop, but carry a Harbor Freight cheapie in the tool kits of both my bikes - just in case. They work just fine and can be had for less than 10 bucks - sometimes even free with the right coupon.

[cassecou]

For trouble shouting, start simple. Replace the battery.
If this does not fix the problem, I mean, the battery will not charge and goes dead, it is possibly an alternator problem.
You might have had the same issue I had.
One day I parked the FZ and not ride for a week. When I wanted to start it again, the battery was dead.
The only way I can see it happening is that I turned the ignition key one click too far, and (I think) this kept on drawing power, even if so the bike was off.
I connected to a battery tender, but the tender did not want to have anything to do with it and refused to charged it.
I then remembered an old electrical trick. When 2 batteries (of the same voltage and about the same capacity) are connected together, the current will want to equalized on both batteries.
In that case, the full battery sent electricity to the dead battery. Then I was able to connect the battery, now half full, to the tender and finished filling the battery.
This battery is still being used, but I make sure I connect it to the tender every 3 days to keep the battery topped off. So far (6 month latter), I had now issue starting the bike anywhere I go.

[cassecou]

As winter is here, a quick reminder about batteries.
A battery will discharge quicker in the hot summer months than in the cold winter months.
I know, its counter intuitive, simply because we are so used to go outside on a very cold winter morning and hear the motor having a difficult time starting the car. This has nothing to do with a low charge battery.
In very cold days, the electrons in a battery are slowing down, which make the battery hard to start the car. The electrons need to get moving to produce enough juice you need to start a car.
It does help to turn on all the lights and electronics in the car for a few minutes to achieve that goal. Doing this won't drain much electricity out of the battery. But the battery will have a much better time starting your car.
On the other hand, in the hot summer month, those electrons are moving, moving too much, to the point that their action will drain you vehicle battery.
It's not by coincidence that people suggest to store AA, AAA and other small batteries in the freezer to keep their charge longer.

[rick]

Actually, with the key turned one click past the lock position and into the "park" position, this likely turns on the bitty "aux" light at the bottom of the headlight. It might even turn on the tail light. This position allows the 4-way flashers to work w/o the bike running.
 
That battery likely needs to be on a tender for more than just a few hours. But just replacing it w/o checking the charge system is just flying blind. Even if the battery is on its last legs, testing the charge system's output is easy enough to do. If, in the unlikely chance, it's faulty, replacing the battery will just result in another dead battery.
 
 

[rick]

As winter is here, a quick reminder about batteries. A battery will discharge quicker in the hot summer months than in the cold winter months.
I know, its counter intuitive, simply because we are so used to go outside on a very cold winter morning and hear the motor having a difficult time starting the car. This has nothing to do with a low charge battery.
In very cold days, the electrons in a battery are slowing down, which make the battery hard to start the car. The electrons need to get moving to produce enough juice you need to start a car.
It does help to turn on all the lights and electronics in the car for a few minutes to achieve that goal. Doing this won't drain much electricity out of the battery. But the battery will have a much better time starting your car.
On the other hand, in the hot summer month, those electrons are moving, moving too much, to the point that their action will drain you vehicle battery.
It's not by coincidence that people suggest to store AA, AAA and other small batteries in the freezer to keep their charge longer.

cold temps effect the chemistry that produces voltage. Have no idea what the speed of an electron is, but I suspect 30f is not enough to make 'em even blink.  
But yer right, heat (and vibration) is the other thing that's hard on batteries. And we're not talking 80 or 90F, we're talking hotter - hot enough to warp internals such that structure inside is affected. Bikes are hard on batteries in this respect - especially if they live close to an exhausts pipe
 
Btw, electric motors do not follow ohms law. if you drop the voltage available, (like with a weak battery) the starter motor will try to draw more current to make up for the lesser volts. This causes starter solenoids to fail and also puts far heavier current draws on that poor little battery - can you say heat?. 

[roadrunner]

@rick thanks for the specs and info! and @cassecou thanks for the info too!
 
I'd rather test the systems first before replacing the battery, once im sure the system still works, then ill just go buy another battery. i can't imagine this one went bad so soon and so easily, but who knows. if after testing it keeps happening, screw it, getting a new/battery

[roadrunner]

Finally got to test the battery again. This time i went to charge it, after about 3 weeks of no use. it started charging at the flashing green light, so it was still about 80%(i think thats what it means). I let it charge for 10min, and it went solid green(full). which seemed a little odd. i let it charge another 10min anyway.
 
went for a ride to the usual spot, turned it off, took a break for like 20 minutes. tried to leave, and it turned on! although barely.. i could see the lights dimming more than usual when it was starting. started riding home, and on the way saw a guy that was on the side of the road, looked a little odd, so i made a u-turn just to see if he was ok. turns out a car had gotten in his way and he ended up crashing on a turn. he said he was alright, but the bike was messed up. he said he was gonna park the biek somewhere and take the bus home, so i offered to help.
 
when i was gonna leave, my bike wouldnt start. i ended up needing his help to push start the bike. Embarrassing to say the least.
 
I guess now all thats left is to test the voltages and hope its just the battery.

[sv07]

Sounds like the battery is just weak. Like previously stated, it will probably never be 100% again. Best bet is to replace it. That should fix the problem. We have bikes come in like this all the time. The battery seems fine when the bike is off and everything but you do a load test and the battery tests weak. Only thing you can do is replace it.

[jake]

If you could pull a load test that would tell you if the battery is ok its a good way to check anyway. A local shop should have a load tester. and check your output voltages like stated.
 

[rick]

Yep - all the charger knows is that the battery is reaching some voltage and it's saying all's well. Your charge voltage was OK. It's prolly not that. You can get it load tested for the final verdict, but it sounds like the battery is toast. You might have gotten a bad one from the start ( it does happen) and running it low pushed it to the edge.
 
 

[markstertt]

Sounds like you may end up with a real good excuse to get a new lithium ion battery, I'm waiting for the day mine decides to give it up so I can knock another 5 lbs. off the bike, with my luck mine will last 5 years which normally would make me happy.

[specialeddy]

You need a new battery... some batteries cannot be restored fully if drained too much. I let my bike sit 2 almost 3 weeks before i ordered and recieved my tender from amazon... amazingly after 2 almost 3 weeks my fz started right up. On the other hand i have a truck that i let sit for 3 weeks with a 4 year old battery... i used my tender to charge my truck battery... 4 year old battery eventually went to green light status... put it in truck and i was able to start truck with the battery coming fresh off the tender... but the next day the truck wouldnt start... so i put it back on the tender... let it green light and truck started... waited a day and it was dead again... this means the battery is bad... again no such issue with the fz07 battery as i never allowed it to completely drain like i did with the truck... that tender will green light a bad battery and a bad battery will give off enough cranking amps to start... but the battery will die soon after.
 
You have admitted that you can start your bike with it coming off the tender in solid green status... if u want definitive proof that its the batter without buying meters... try this: charge the battery until its a solid green status on tender... when solid green take the battery off the tender and let the battery just sit off the bike and off the tender for about 3 or 4 days... then without charging put the battery back in the bike and try to start it... if its a "slow" start or a failed start then its your battery... as no way should a good battery not be able to start the vehicle after just sitting for a couple days.

[roadrunner]

well if it wasnt dead before its probably dead now. i never got around to testing with the voltage meter, and the bike has been sitting there for maybe a month+. im wondering if its even worth it buying the voltage meter or just going straight for the new battery.
 
I might sell the bike. if i do, do you guys think i should just get a OEM replacement, or new lithium? and do you recommend any good brands for lithium?
 
Thanks again for all the help!!
 
PS. i probably wont buy another battery till i start riding again, dont want to screw up the new one too

[rick]

well, if yer just gonna sell the bike, why would you buy a very expensive Li battery? In that respect, I would buy the cheapest AGM battery that fits.
 
A Li battery will be able to sit unused for much longer than an AGM battery, but they are big dollars and still don't perform all that well when very cold.
 
If you are not gonna keep an AGM battery on a float charger, best thing to do is pull the 30A main fuse to eliminate all current draw.
 
You have little excuse in not owning a small Dig voltmeter http://www.sears.com/centech-7-function-digital-multimeter-brand-new-3/p-5S4299301?sid=IDx20110310x00001i&gclid=CIz8nuiL69ECFYWCswodkfINrw&gclsrc=aw.ds Harbor Freight sells this same thing for $4.50.
 
Here, 4 choices. I personally own a Motocross brand battery for my Aprilia that's done well in a bike that's got a history of being a bit reluctant to crank if everything's not perfect. It's now 3 years old and still happy. https://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/motorcycle/yamaha/2015/700cc-fz-07/
 
 

[roadrunner]

$4.50?!?! alright, im convinced, ill buy one...
 
LOL
 
i was gonna get a decent one from amazon but didnt wanna wait so kept delaying the whole thing. guess ill get a cheapy one and start testing. ill decide on a lithium or regular once im sure im keeping the bike or not. thanks again!

[pgeldz]

If you go lithium, I'd go EarthX. Haven't had a problem yet, and the bike has been sitting for months, in 40 degree weather. Starts every time, without issue.
 

 
- Paulie

[roadrunner]

thanks paul!
 
what do you guys think of this one?
 
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/bike-master-lithium-ion-battery-dlfp-12-bs
 
I called for the price on the OEM battery, they said $119. I figured I might as well get a lithium battery for a few more bucks, but they also said lithium batteries require more maintenance. I he wasnt very specific..
 
But I don't want more hassle. I typically ride only on weekends, and occasionally two weeks will pass by between rides. with this type of usage in mind, will a lithium battery require more maintenance?
 
still need to go buy the multimeter

[rick]

You will pay extra for the Yuasa name. Maybe once upon a time it was worth paying extra for. Not so sure about that anymore.
 
Not sure why a Li battery would need more maintenance. Along with less weight, less maintenance is their claim to fame. Had a Subaru service manager tell me once that I'd violate the car's warranty if I used full synthetic oil. 2 years later all Subarus came delivered with synthetic oil and Subaru was even bottling the stuff as OE. Sounds like you got the same guy, lol.
 
Assuming a healthy charge system, I don't see why letting the bike sit for a week or even 2 now and then w/o use would be that hard on a battery. You still need to take long enough rides to put back what the starter motor sucks away though. It's easy enough to pull the main fuse if in doubt. A Li battery would probably survive 6 months of non-use and no maintenance.
 
Not familiar with the EarthX batteries, but if i went Li, I would pick one that self-equalizes and doesn't need a special charger (cough, Shorai) - if the need did arise to recharge the thing.
 
i know at least one guy who's had good luck with a Scorpion battery. In that link, note the one guy who was disappointed with his. He let the bike sir over the winter and come spring, the battery was toast. Duh!
 
 
 
 

[markstertt]

Dealer mislead you, a decent lithium can sit for up to 4 months between uses as long as there is no drain on the system with key off. And there is no increased maintenance, whatever that means. I've been using one cheapie version in TTR-125 for 6-7 yrs. with 3-5 months between starts and it's still hanging in there, leave it in a mountain cabin over winter..Been using a Deltran lithium in DRZ400 for 3-4 yrs. now and it sits for long periods and still starts. I did buy a small Deltran lithium battery charger just to have on hand but haven't needed it...and am not convinced you absolutely need one, the bike seems to be able to keep it charged and doesn't know it's not a lead acid or AGM.
 
Just be aware that with a smaller lithium, on a cold day, the first crank may be slow but if you put a load (like the headlight) on for a minute then the battery internal resistance drops and the next crank will be faster, I haven't needed to do this but it's something that's good to know.
 
But if you're selling the bike, just buy something like a BikeMaster AGM battery, good and probably half the price of OE, however, don't quote me on that.

[rick]

A few years back, Shorai gave a Li battery to a guy on the Aprilia forum to test in an older Caponord (the old Rotax twin like what's in my Futura) He wasn't exactly thrilled with the cold performance of that original Shorai. There were cold mornings he had to resort to waiting 30secs to a minute with the key on to allow the wattage draw of the lights to warm the battery enough to crank that big Rotax to life
 
Also have a buddy who put one in his 2002 ZRX1200 Kaw. He also wasn't thrilled with cold weather starts and called Shorai. Shorai recommended the bigger battery (read more expensive) and replaced his with the bigger battery and that did the trick .
 
After 6 months of testing, the Capo guy went back to AGMs for his Rotax.
 
This little 700 spins up much faster and easier than any other twin I've owned since - well, since there were kick starters, lol. So I suspect a Li battery, if it's big enough to start with, will do fine in this bike. And there's absolutely no worry of it sulfating if it does get run down.
 
I'm blanking on this, does our headlight wait until the bike is running (and seeing a charge voltage) to light up? Some bikes do this, so having the current draw of the headlight before hitting the starter won't help warm up a cold Li battery.
 
 

[pgeldz]

From an older thread when I first got my battery...
 
 
I got the EarthX ETX18F. After researching all the available batteries I wanted a straight drop in with similar case dimensions as the OEM battery. There are a few out there that fit that bill, but out of all of them, the EarthX is the lightest at 2.2 lbs. Shori was 2.3lbs, and Antigravity was 2.4 if I'm not mistaken.
 
 
Now, having said that, that's not the actual reason I got it, because we're basically splitting hairs at this point when it comes to weight. Same thing when it comes to cold cranking amps. They all put out well more than the 190 CCA the OEM puts out.
 
 
I really got the EarthX because of its technology. It's the only battery that has the electronic circuitry and management system built into the battery to protect from over discharge, over charge, cell balancing, and excessive cranking protection.
 
 
What this means is that you don't need a fancy, expensive lithium battery charger. A regular charger will work perfectly because the battery itself has the built in circuitry doing all the smart work for you, not the charger.

 
That was the appeal for me.
 
 
After 10+ years of remote control car racing in Japan, I've seen battery technology go from me having to solder individual NiCad cells together to make race packs, to the lithium battery craze where some of these hi amp packs put out twice the power in less than half the weight.
 
 
When I saw that EarthX line of batteries with their features and built-in circuitry, I was sold.
 
 

 
 
- Paulie
 
 

[rick]

The self-balancing of cells is important imo. Really helps the battery last longer. I don't know about the other safety electronics, but this one also self balances, does not need a fancy charger (charges "in as little as 6 mins" - what does that mean?) - though you still can't use one that has a desulfate mode like my Optimates. And it's only (a claimed) 2.0 lbs! https://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/lithium-iron-batteries/sstz14s-fp.html