Need for Donor Bike for 2WDW Flash

[Guest 2wheeler]

So I was recently telling Nels of 2WDW what I have done to my FZ since he flashed it. He said that I should post a thread here looking for a possible donor bike.
 
So here’s what I did for those of you who haven’t read any of my ramblings about this. I had a flash done for my FZ-07 for the stock exhaust and snorkel removed. I got the ECU back and all was very cool except I couldn’t stand the sound the intake made with the snorkel removed as it was louder than the exhaust, and I want to keep the stock exhaust. After reading a bunch of the threads on this site, and especially pgeldz’s one about the MWR air filter, I reinstalled the snorkel but with the inner portion that extends into the air box removed. The plan was to add the MWR air filter as it is a higher flow filter than the OEM filters. I thought that it would offset the loss of airflow created by reinstalling the outer portion of the snorkel.
 
As things turned out, I rode for a couple hundred miles with the half-snorkel in but with the OEM air filter. It definitely sounded better, but it seemed to have lost a little in performance as determined by the never wrong butt dyno. I eventually installed the MWR filter, and the performance difference was very noticeable. It actually runs really well, and arguably better than the stock filter with no snorkel. Plus it sounds pretty good with the half-snorkel and the increased air flow with the MWR.
 
So the reason for this thread… I can’t help but think this combo might even be better than it currently is with a reflash for this exact combo. I am going to send Nels a new MWR air filter and a half-snorkel that he can install in anybody’s donor bike for a reflash, if you have had one done by him for a FZ-07 with the stock exhaust and no snorkel. As everyone knows, Nels does reflashes for free except for shipping. So what I am hoping is that somebody who lives within driving distance to Nels would bring their bike there for a reflash. If you are a person who has not had a flash by 2WDW yet, Nels indicated that there would be some kind of discount if you brought your bike in for this combo. Of course, you would have to talk with Nels about that. Nels indicated that he should be able to do this after the first of the year.
 
So if there is anyone out there who is in driving distance of Nels, and wants to try this combo, please contact Nels, and it would be great if you let me know, or at least post about what you thought of it. I wouldn’t be doing this post if I weren’t pretty impressed with what the half-snorkel/MWR combo did with my bike. Like any good performance junkie, I have to think it would be better with a specific reflash.
 
2WDW's website is: https://2wheeldynoworks.com
 
They are located in Kirkland, Washington.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
 

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

If it runs fine with your set-up now I would call it a day. You'll maybe get another horse if you're lucky, but I doubt anything more than that and likely less.
 
With the snorkel out you lose power down low and gain it up top. With the snorkel in you gain power down low and lose it up top. So it really depends on how you use the bike. With the 2WDW flash it's definitely more beneficial to have the snorkel out since the flash makes the bike's powerband behave like a supersport shifting a lot of the power to the higher RPMS.

[Guest 2wheeler]

If it runs fine with your set-up now I would call it a day. You'll maybe get another horse if you're lucky, but I doubt anything more than that and likely less.  
With the snorkel out you lose power down low and gain it up top. With the snorkel in you gain power down low and lose it up top. So it really depends on how you use the bike. With the 2WDW flash it's definitely more beneficial to have the snorkel out since the flash makes the bike's powerband behave like a supersport shifting a lot of the power to the higher RPMS.

Sorry ChicagoAJ, I don't agree with you on this one.  
From what I've read and talking with Nels, everything just depends on how it's being tuned. Nels was intriqued enough on what I was tellling about my bike, he suggested that I try to find a donor, and he is more than willing to see what happens. I'm going to assume that he wouldn't be willing to do that if he thought it was a waste of time. One thing is for sure, he knows a heck of a lot more about this stuff than you or I do.
 
Regarding the flash itself, it is what you tune it for, which is not only a little more kick, but getting the bike as smooth as possible, in addition to targeting the rpm range you want to power to be strongest in. I recently rode a FZ-07 with a 2WDW flash and a MIVV pipe which was unbelievably smooth, but it didn't have the grunt that my bike has. Nothing wrong with trying to get the best power delivery possible. Worse cause scenario, it always can be reset to what it previously was.
 

[Cruizin]

If it runs fine with your set-up now I would call it a day. You'll maybe get another horse if you're lucky, but I doubt anything more than that and likely less.  
With the snorkel out you lose power down low and gain it up top. With the snorkel in you gain power down low and lose it up top. So it really depends on how you use the bike. With the 2WDW flash it's definitely more beneficial to have the snorkel out since the flash makes the bike's powerband behave like a supersport shifting a lot of the power to the higher RPMS.

Sorry ChicagoAJ, I don't agree with you on this one.  
From what I've read and talking with Nels, everything just depends on how it's being tuned. Nels was intriqued enough on what I was tellling about my bike, he suggested that I try to find a donor, and he is more than willing to see what happens. I'm going to assume that he wouldn't be willing to do that if he thought it was a waste of time. One thing is for sure, he knows a heck of a lot more about this stuff than you or I do.
 
Regarding the flash itself, it is what you tune it for, which is not only a little more kick, but getting the bike as smooth as possible, in addition to targeting the rpm range you want to power to be strongest in. I recently rode a FZ-07 with a 2WDW flash and a MIVV pipe which was unbelievably smooth, but it didn't have the grunt that my bike has. Nothing wrong with trying to get the best power delivery possible. Worse cause scenario, it always can be reset to what it previously was.

 
You'll get more than one horse and it makes the fueling/throttle control a joy, like the euro models. Our bikes get detund for US emissions. Cause of the fz09 abrupt throttle and the entire rev range has you smiling after this. Every stock us bike is detuned. This tune corrects that and this company is a leader, not a hack tuner

[pattonme]

I recently rode a FZ-07 with a 2WDW flash and a MIVV pipe which was unbelievably smooth, but it didn't have the grunt that my bike has.

 
Challenge accepted. we'll see what you think of it when I cut an 1" off the snorkel and revisit the air filter. Yours was definitely more visceral, the pulses could be felt, and the quick-turn throttle probably helps too.

[Guest 2wheeler]

I recently rode a FZ-07 with a 2WDW flash and a MIVV pipe which was unbelievably smooth, but it didn't have the grunt that my bike has.

Challenge accepted. we'll see what you think of it when I cut an 1" off the snorkel and revisit the air filter. Yours was definitely more visceral, the pulses could be felt, and the quick-turn throttle probably helps too.

Hey, I was being nice and didn't mention that it was your bike, but now that you bring it up.... 
I've ridden four FZ-07s now. and all four couldn't be more different.
 
The first was stock, and is what it is.
 
The next was Matt's with a stock air box (snorkel not removed), stock filter,stock throttle, MIVV exhaust, and a 2WDW flash (super smooth, decent top end, boring low and mid range).
 
The third had a stock throttle, snorkel removed, Akrapovic Ti with baffle removed, and an EJK controller set up by Dobeck (decent top end, not a smooth throttle response throughout, the super engine braking, and freaking loud!) The sidenote about this bike is that he and I had a 20-100 roll-on drag race where we were absolutely even. He was lighter than me, and tucked in where I didn't. I seriously expected him to pull me by at least a bike length or two. I was surprised. This was when I had the stock air filter and no snorkel.
 
Lastly, my bike has a half snorkel, MWR filter, R6 throttle tube, and a 2WDW flash set up for for a stock exhaust with the snorkel totally removed. My bike is smoother than the EJK bike by a lot, but not as smooth as Matt's. Power wise, I think it pulls better than both Matt's and the EJK bike though the whole rpm range, and I really like the power delivery with this setup. I think that it pulls better than the stock filter/no snorkel, but that is gauging by the butt dyno, so who knows. It would be interesting doing another 20-100 drag with the EJK bike, as that might be more telling.
 
Bottomline for me is that if 2WDW gets a chance to see if this combo could be improved on with a reflash, that would be great. A little more kick, smoother, and crisper would make an already great motor only better!
 
 

[bellissimoto]

I agree that the MWR filter will make a difference. I tested one back to back in my own FZ-07 here and had great results.  Made 1.1hp over the already good DNA filter, so the MWR, properly tuned for, should make an even more noticeable difference when compared to stock.
 
We have a great relationship with MWR, and I can now say they have an Filter Cover in the works, along the lines of the DNA Stage 2 air box cover.  In addition, they are producing just for me, a new filter made from their race grade material vs the performance filter material to test with.
 
Once I receive the new filtercover and race filter, my plan is to dyno them back to back
 
I suspect the new filtercover and race filter will be the best combo for maximum gains WITHOUT having to change the airbox to something more exposed to the elements. 
 

 
- Paul
 
 
BellissiMoto.com

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

Sorry ChicagoAJ, I don't agree with you on this one.  
From what I've read and talking with Nels, everything just depends on how it's being tuned. Nels was intriqued enough on what I was tellling about my bike, he suggested that I try to find a donor, and he is more than willing to see what happens. I'm going to assume that he wouldn't be willing to do that if he thought it was a waste of time. One thing is for sure, he knows a heck of a lot more about this stuff than you or I do.
 
Regarding the flash itself, it is what you tune it for, which is not only a little more kick, but getting the bike as smooth as possible, in addition to targeting the rpm range you want to power to be strongest in. I recently rode a FZ-07 with a 2WDW flash and a MIVV pipe which was unbelievably smooth, but it didn't have the grunt that my bike has. Nothing wrong with trying to get the best power delivery possible. Worse cause scenario, it always can be reset to what it previously was.

You'll get more than one horse and it makes the fueling/throttle control a joy, like the euro models. Our bikes get detund for US emissions. Cause of the fz09 abrupt throttle and the entire rev range has you smiling after this. Every stock us bike is detuned. This tune corrects that and this company is a leader, not a hack tuner

He already has the bike flashed. Putting a new filter in and messing with the snorkel isn't going to do much. A full exhaust + tune was only a whole 2hp difference on average. 

[bellissimoto]

A full exhaust + tune was only a whole 2hp difference on average. 

 
Hmm, something fishy going on with a full exhaust and tune for only a 2hp gain. My bike gained that much with just the DNA filter. Overall, with a full exhaust and the new MWR filter, it was like a 10hp/10tq gain in the midrange.
 
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com
 
 

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

A full exhaust + tune was only a whole 2hp difference on average. 

Hmm, something fishy going on with a full exhaust and tune for only a 2hp gain. My bike gained that much with just the DNA filter. Overall, with a full exhaust and the new MWR filter, it was like a 10hp/10tq gain in the midrange. 
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com
 

Mid range and max figures are definitely not the same, lol. What did your bike gain overall from a stock dyno? If @2wheeler already has the 2WDW flash for snorkel out; I'm saying that changing a filter and trying different snorkel configurations is not going to give the bike anything more than 1hp overall. Maybe a tiny bit more in the midrange.    
Stock bike without the flash put out 67hp on 2WDW's dyno. Stock bike with flash was 68-69hp. With full Akra Carbon, no snorkel, and flash it was 71hp according to their charts.
 

[bellissimoto]

Hmm, something fishy going on with a full exhaust and tune for only a 2hp gain. My bike gained that much with just the DNA filter. Overall, with a full exhaust and the new MWR filter, it was like a 10hp/10tq gain in the midrange. 
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com
 

Mid range and max figures are definitely not the same, lol. What did your bike gain overall from a stock dyno? If @2wheeler already has the 2WDW flash for snorkel out; I'm saying that changing a filter and trying different snorkel configurations is not going to give the bike anything more than 1hp overall. Maybe a tiny bit more in the midrange.    
Stock bike without the flash put out 67hp on 2WDW's dyno. Stock bike with flash was 68-69hp. With full Akra Carbon, no snorkel, and flash it was 71hp according to their charts.

Well, you said 2 hp GAIN, not max figures.  And that's the thing...there are too many variables to make a direct comparison.  Max figures don't tell the whole story.  A bike with a 10hp gain in the midrange with only 2 hp gain at it's highest number, would be worlds better to ride than a bike that dips below stock power in the midrange and then makes 4 hp at it's max number.   
Having said that, my bike gained 10hp/10tq over the stock dyno, in the midrange, with about a 5-6 hp/tq gain at it's highest numbers.
 
What we do know, is that the snorkel removed does give gains.  And the MWR filter does give gains.  I think what @2wheeler is saying is that since he didn't want the intake noise he put the snorkel back in (which robs power) and used the MWR filter and GAINED performance with his previous tune.  Now he just wants to maximize the tune for the new filter and see if it gets even more gains, which I think it should.  
 

 
- Paul
 
 
BellissiMoto.com

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

Mid range and max figures are definitely not the same, lol. What did your bike gain overall from a stock dyno? If @2wheeler already has the 2WDW flash for snorkel out; I'm saying that changing a filter and trying different snorkel configurations is not going to give the bike anything more than 1hp overall. Maybe a tiny bit more in the midrange.    
Stock bike without the flash put out 67hp on 2WDW's dyno. Stock bike with flash was 68-69hp. With full Akra Carbon, no snorkel, and flash it was 71hp according to their charts.

Well, you said 2 hp GAIN, not max figures.  And that's the thing...there are too many variables to make a direct comparison.  Max figures don't tell the whole story.  A bike with a 10hp gain in the midrange with only 2 hp gain at it's highest number, would be worlds better to ride than a bike that dips below stock power in the midrange and then makes 4 hp at it's max number.   
Having said that, my bike gained 10hp/10tq over the stock dyno, in the midrange, with about a 5-6 hp/tq gain at it's highest numbers.
 
What we do know, is that the snorkel removed does give gains.  And the MWR filter does give gains.  I think what @2wheeler is saying is that since he didn't want the intake noise he put the snorkel back in (which robs power) and used the MWR filter and GAINED performance with his previous tune.  Now he just wants to maximize the tune for the new filter and see if it gets even more gains, which I think it should.  
 

 
- Paul
 
 
BellissiMoto.com

And I'm saying it won't do enough to notice the difference, you might get another 1-2hp on paper but it's not going to change the flash/characteristics of the bike enough to notice it (especially since it's already flashed). And since he put the snorkel back in it will effectively cancel the gains of the new filter anyway, even if half the snorkel is trimmed away, it's still bottle-necked by the size of the snorkel at the intake box.  
On the same dyno with the same flash, a filter isn't going to make a night and day difference, unless you're a complete numbers wh*re. I don't think a couple horsepower gain anywhere would be able to be felt or even seen on lap times or anything like that. I believe @2wheeler even said he had raced someone with a whole bunch of mods vs his bone stock bike and they were dead even the entire time (even when they switched bikes). 
 
I'm all for getting the most power possible out of any combination of parts and I understand why he wants to do it - I just don't think he's going to feel the difference he's expecting. And it'll likely be months and months before 2WDW even has a donor bike to run, it may never happen as well. 
 
Either way, I'll be tuned in to see what the results are once/if everything gets done. 

[rhb]

I'm going to repost part of another post comment I made on "What exhaust to buy" and add some.
 
Looking at all the various dyno curves out there, number one: there is a lot of variation between different tuners, and number 2, all the power curves are similar for the various pipes. Its when you add a DNA stage 2, or Hord box etc. in COMBINATION with an exhaust, AND a proper ECU flash, or dyno tested fueling device, you get some significant increases.(some do better with baffle in or out etc)
 
If you can get +- 70 HP to the rear wheel in the real world, your doing good (IMHO). That is if maximum power is what your after. You have to buy what you like, what looks and sounds good to you.
 
I saw that 2WDW gets the best results with the AKRA TI and the Yoshi. The Akra rated at 75 HP at 9-10,000 rpms. and that's another thing, how often are we riding at the power band where the HP gains kick in? Looking at the torque curve gives a better indication of low end grunt. When you compare the dyno charts at 5,000 t0 7,000 rpm, all the outputs begin to look similar for various pipes.
 
I know some may be aware of the dangers of relying on Dyno results, They are best used in combo with extensive road (or track) testing and really only cover conditions for the day you perform the test, it is why 5-6 runs are required to get the best average result.
HP is a calculated number not something that is directly measured, Torque is a measured value, and a dyno can only measure torque directly. HP is relevant at specific RPMs H = T x rpm/5252.
So look at the torque curves for more meaning, and realize that max HP is coming at max RPMs (or near), We are not usually riding at a constant 9,000 RPMs, so re read the dyno curves to see what we are really achieving. Adding or subtracting an air box snorkel, Filter etc. will most likely not give you a noticeable result at normal driving speeds, The butt dyno is sometimes connected to the dollars we spent on a particular upgrade.
 
There are many good reasons to flash your ECU, more power is only one, and a side effect of a properly tuned bike.

[bellissimoto]

I'm all for getting the most power possible out of any combination of parts and I understand why he wants to do it

 
I agree, well said
 
- Paul
 
BellissiMoto.com
 
 

[crsnhppr]

I went up 2 teeth in the rear, I have a stock air filter with the plate and snorkle removed and an EJK, few holes I drilled in the exhaust for sound.
 
Anyways going up those 2 teeth in the rear with my mods the bike pulls very hard. I rode a guys bike who had a fz with the 2WDW tune and a yoshi baffle in. My bike accelerated more aggressively and harder than his bike somehow, his throttle was smoother by far but at the same time my bike has this "hit" in certain rpm's his just didn't have , so... whatever ya do try +2 in the rear too

[crsnhppr]

I've fiddled a lot with my ejk too, I've been tweaking it for a hard aggressive hit from 2.5 to 7k rpm in 3rd thru 5th, I just kinda focus on the power and bite in that range and it's pretty explosive at this point, I might also add that a very nice gain was felt with the air filter completely removed and fuel adjusted for with EJK, but idk feel bad for my engine since I've taken such care in absuing it in that way than makes it stronger and better kinda way, like Conan the barbarian when he's walking behind that grain roller for idk 20 years or whatever

[Cruizin]

Challenge accepted. we'll see what you think of it when I cut an 1" off the snorkel and revisit the air filter. Yours was definitely more visceral, the pulses could be felt, and the quick-turn throttle probably helps too.

Hey, I was being nice and didn't mention that it was your bike, but now that you bring it up.... 
I've ridden four FZ-07s now. and all four couldn't be more different.
 
The first was stock, and is what it is.
 
The next was Matt's with a stock air box (snorkel not removed), stock filter,stock throttle, MIVV exhaust, and a 2WDW flash (super smooth, decent top end, boring low and mid range).
 
The third had a stock throttle, snorkel removed, Akrapovic Ti with baffle removed, and an EJK controller set up by Dobeck (decent top end, not a smooth throttle response throughout, the super engine braking, and freaking loud!) The sidenote about this bike is that he and I had a 20-100 roll-on drag race where we were absolutely even. He was lighter than me, and tucked in where I didn't. I seriously expected him to pull me by at least a bike length or two. I was surprised. This was when I had the stock air filter and no snorkel.
 
Lastly, my bike has a half snorkel, MWR filter, R6 throttle tube, and a 2WDW flash set up for for a stock exhaust with the snorkel totally removed. My bike is smoother than the EJK bike by a lot, but not as smooth as Matt's. Power wise, I think it pulls better than both Matt's and the EJK bike though the whole rpm range, and I really like the power delivery with this setup. I think that it pulls better than the stock filter/no snorkel, but that is gauging by the butt dyno, so who knows. It would be interesting doing another 20-100 drag with the EJK bike, as that might be more telling.
 
Bottomline for me is that if 2WDW gets a chance to see if this combo could be improved on with a reflash, that would be great. A little more kick, smoother, and crisper would make an already great motor only better!
 

 
The EJK by Dobeck is awesome too. They were like our first vendor too, found their test bike for their R&D and settings.
 
 
 

[rhb]

I went up 2 teeth in the rear, I have a stock air filter with the plate and snorkle removed and an EJK, few holes I drilled in the exhaust for sound.  
Anyways going up those 2 teeth in the rear with my mods the bike pulls very hard. I rode a guys bike who had a fz with the 2WDW tune and a yoshi baffle in. My bike accelerated more aggressively and harder than his bike somehow, his throttle was smoother by far but at the same time my bike has this "hit" in certain rpm's his just didn't have , so... whatever ya do try +2 in the rear too

Gearing is a good way to increase acceleration at the loss of top end, but its a finite change. So if going 130MPH is not important gearing down is a great way to improve acceleration to a lower top speed. I assume you know to calculate the ratio so it does not come up at a whole number for example 3:1, should be 2.97:1 (as an example only) so the chain will move around as the sprockets spin and not stay in one spot. (Same tooth every revolution) The only caution is you will be shifting more often, but if you like it go for it.
Personally I would tune the bike first with an ECU flash (or fuel controller), after market pipe, air filter mod of choice, then re-gear. You want your bike producing all the power it can at the counter shaft sprocket first. but that is in the vein of getting all you can from the bike.
different strokes for different folks.
 

[mcoupe99]

I just had 2Wheel Dynoworks flash the ECU on my 2015 FZ-07 this past week, great improvement in throttle response (bike has stock exhaust, snorkel, and air filter). Bike is going back in next Wednesday for testing with a modified snorkel and air filter. Convenient as I am located only about a 20 minute drive from 2Wheel Dynoworks.

[peteinpa]

I just had 2Wheel Dynoworks flash the ECU on my 2015 FZ-07 this past week, great improvement in throttle response (bike has stock exhaust, snorkel, and air filter). Bike is going back in next Wednesday for testing with a modified snorkel and air filter. Convenient as I am located only about a 20 minute drive from 2Wheel Dynoworks.

 
 
I'm running oem filter without snorkel or lid, oem exhaust and 2wdw flash. Works great. I like the slight increase in sound. The sound only picks up when rolling on the power.

[howlinhoss]

I just had 2Wheel Dynoworks flash the ECU on my 2015 FZ-07 this past week, great improvement in throttle response (bike has stock exhaust, snorkel, and air filter). Bike is going back in next Wednesday for testing with a modified snorkel and air filter. Convenient as I am located only about a 20 minute drive from 2Wheel Dynoworks.

I'm running oem filter without snorkel or lid, oem exhaust and 2wdw flash. Works great. I like the slight increase in sound. The sound only picks up when rolling on the power.

Are you using washers to hold the filter in?

[peteinpa]

OEM filter is held in by the one OEM screw.

[mcoupe99]

I just had 2Wheel Dynoworks flash the ECU on my 2015 FZ-07 this past week, great improvement in throttle response (bike has stock exhaust, snorkel, and air filter). Bike is going back in next Wednesday for testing with a modified snorkel and air filter. Convenient as I am located only about a 20 minute drive from 2Wheel Dynoworks.

Update - Won't be able to take the bike in today, too busy with work.  Might be another week or two before I can make it to 2WDW again to test out the modified snorkel & MWR filter. 

[Guest 2wheeler]

Well, I learned a couple of lessons...
 
1. Logic isn't reality
2. Seat of the Pants Dyno is broken
 
I recently got a call from 2WDW on my air filter/snorkel experiment. Nels had the opportunity to try my MWR air filter with my half snorkel on a FZ-07 set up like mine, and the results sorta sucked. It seemed logical to me that if one flashed a bike for no snorkel with a stock air filter, using a half snorkel with a higher flow air filter should at least be similar if not better. My logic is not reality... Nels said that there was 2hp loss as well as a loss of 2 lbs of torque with the half snorkel installed. That sorta sucked only in that my great idea wasn't reality. Now as far as the Seat of the Pants Dyno goes, I had completely talked myself into there being actually a gain in power with the filter/half snorkel combo - lesson learned!
 
Fast forward to today, I just got back from a 150 miles ride which was my first ride after removing the half snorkel. Now obviously I don't trust my dyno anymore, but.... I had a bunch of baby unplanned wheelies today, and the bike in general ran like a scalded dog. The best news is that this whole experiment came as a result of me not liking the suck sound of the intake with no snorkel (remember I have a stock exhaust). Now it actually sounds pretty good as the MWR has a totally different suck sound than the stock air filter.
 
Fun experiment, but not with the results I expected.
 
 

[sansnombre]

I'm curious - is that difference at max power/torque only? What about at 4 or 5k? I would think you might have an advantage at that RPM with the snorkel in place.
 
I'm in the same school that a well-designed intake snorkel is a good thing - that said, this one is restrictive in that the oval opening is very small relative to something like the MWR lid. No snorkel or enhanced flow shaping but the opening is HUGE relative to the stock.