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What are members doing for improved braking?


versysrider

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I wasn't happy with the standard brake pads' lack of initial bite. Overall stopping power was okay but the lever pressure required was too much compared to other bikes I am used to (sport and track riding).
 
I fitted brembo SA (road) pads, initial bite and overall breaking is much improved. I now have much more confidence in the brakes. An essential improvement in my opinion.
 
 

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Now hold on, now you're talking tires, a seperate issue from brake feel. 
I do have the stock Michelins.
True. but I'd say related, as I said "feel at the contact patch". 
 
 
@ stickshift: Thanks, another good option.
 

'16 Yamaha FZ-07, '15 Yamaha FZ-09

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Improved braking how?? I'm really used to using both front and rear brake majority of the time together...I know some ppl are afraid of using a rear brake or front brake...
 
 
As I previously stated, "stronger initial bite, with better feel".
 
While I don't use both brakes (f&r) most of the time as you do, I agree you should be proficient in using them both, and together. I do use my rear brake to full effect at times, and appreciate that both the FZ-07 and 09 have very strong rear brakes. That was one of the only things I hated about the Street Triple R's, almost no rear brake at all.
And for wheelies the rear brake is indispensable, I alway's "cover" it with my boot. The rear brake was one of the Hypermotard 821's faults as well, kind of like some Aprilia's, Sometimes it was there, sometimes it wasn't. Although that was better than the ride by wire throttle that would stick on coming into corners "hot" sometimes. You never knew when or if it would happen, scary sh_t.

'16 Yamaha FZ-07, '15 Yamaha FZ-09

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I hated the PR3 my bike came with just for its poor grip under heavy braking, but it was a decent tire for me...I just put on Q3 tires about 3 months ago and feel in love with em, under heavy braking the rear tire wouldn't skid easy but rather the Q3 holds it grip and does a very very slight very very slow wiggle in the rear and the tires felt much stiffer in the corners over the PR3 with I felt had a little bounce in the sidewalls... I found switching to the Q3 tires really improved the braking abilities of my bike when using the stock brake pads and rotors...

2015 fz-07- Hordpower Edition...2015 fj-09- 120whp- Graves Exhaust w/Woolich Race Kit- tuned by 2WDW
 

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I hated the PR3 my bike came with just for its poor grip under heavy braking, but it was a decent tire for me...I just put on Q3 tires about 3 months ago and feel in love with em, under heavy braking the rear tire wouldn't skid easy but rather the Q3 holds it grip and does a very very slight very very slow wiggle in the rear and the tires felt much stiffer in the corners over the PR3 with I felt had a little bounce in the sidewalls... I found switching to the Q3 tires really improved the braking abilities of my bike when using the stock brake pads and rotors...
Good to know, glad they work for you. I've had plenty of experience on the Q3's on my son's SuperDuke, really good dry tire. I live north of Seattle and ride year round, so I want something better on damp roads, and with more longevity. I'm trying some Pirelli Angel GT's on my FZ-09, they worked well on my Hypermotard. First set of the stock Brigestones on my FZ-09 I only got 1,900 miles on before they were toast. 

'16 Yamaha FZ-07, '15 Yamaha FZ-09

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On my FZ07, I first switched to EBC HH pads about a week after buying the bike.
Good improvement on initial bite, which was my main gripe with the stock pads.
 
After that pad swap, I was satisfied for the whole following season's riding.
In May of this year, I installed a 2011 GSX-R600 or 750 (same thing, I believe) front master cylinder, a radial type made by Nissin.
Brake performance went up a noticeable amount due to the added leverage of the longer brake lever, and the shape of the brake lever, itself, is excellent and feels better than the original lever while braking.
 

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On my FZ07, I first switched to EBC HH pads about a week after buying the bike. Good improvement on initial bite, which was my main gripe with the stock pads.
 
After that pad swap, I was satisfied for the whole following season's riding.
In May of this year, I installed a 2011 GSX-R600 or 750 (same thing, I believe) front master cylinder, a radial type made by Nissin.
Brake performance went up a noticeable amount due to the added leverage of the longer brake lever, and the shape of the brake lever, itself, is excellent and feels better than the original lever while braking.

Thanks for the reply. So with the GSXR mc, do you think the performance only went up due to the lever length and shape? And was the performance gain in just power, feel or both? Do you know what size piston the GSXR mc your using has? I only run "short levers" on all my street bikes, so in your opinion would this mod be worthwhile for me?
 

'16 Yamaha FZ-07, '15 Yamaha FZ-09

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I don't like short levers, don't see the point. I have the Shindy master cylinder on a couple bikes. Like them.
www.shindypro.com/brake_mckits.html
 
Since the FZ runs dual-4pots the 19mm will work but you might try the 17mm instead. I also have Braking USA and Brembo radial MC.
 

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My master cylinder has 11/16 on it, so I believe the piston size is about 17 or 17.5mm.
 
I believe the main reason it improves braking is due to the leverage of the brake lever on the master cylinder piston.
With the way the lever, piston, and pivot (fulcrum) of the lever are arranged, the lever can be longer and the fulcrum of the lever can be closer to the piston.
Feel through the lever and ability to tell what's happening with front tire traction is at least as good as the stock setup, if not better.
I see no down side to it.
 
In my opinion, shorty levers are often either a styling modification, or the rider is choosing a lever that offers span adjustability (how far away from the grip it is), or the rider feels it's better to install the shorty lever so only the first two fingers will cover the shorter lever.
 
While span adjustability is very good, short levers never made a lot of sense to me because leverage goes out the window, and, in fact, I'll typically slide my master cylinder and clutch lever perch away from the grip to gain leverage and use the stock levers or levers that are at least as long.
 
However, at the end of the day, it's whatever works for a particular rider's preferences.

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@ Matt: Thanks, good to know.
 
@ YZEtc: Yes thanks, I agree. I do use short levers because I much prefer the looks, but I also like the shape better as well. I've never even noticed a difference when going from oem to short levers in relation to extra force required at the lever, never been an issue for me. I do ride with 2 fingers covering both levers, safer, and easier to trail brake for me.
 
Anyway, more good info for this thread. The only thing no one has tried with the oem fork set-up yet appears to be larger rotors.

'16 Yamaha FZ-07, '15 Yamaha FZ-09

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> The only thing no one has tried with the oem fork set-up yet appears to be larger rotors.
 
Good freaking luck with that. The FZ07 has a totally SCREWBALL rotor - it isn't from any of the readily available Yamaha OE offerings. There's a thread for that.
 

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> The only thing no one has tried with the oem fork set-up yet appears to be larger rotors. 
Good freaking luck with that. The FZ07 has a totally SCREWBALL rotor - it isn't from any of the readily available Yamaha OE offerings. There's a thread for that.

I figured the FZ-09's might work, but never even looked at them 'till today, even though both bikes sit side by side in the garage. They both have the same number of mounting bolts, but the 09 has an extra cut-out and button on the mounting ring. Seems like a strange way to cut building costs. 

'16 Yamaha FZ-07, '15 Yamaha FZ-09

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I love short levers. I only 2 finger brake. Modern brakes , properly set up don't need more than 2 fingers. I should point out I also ride mountain bikes and brakes the same way ( though I rode motorcycles long before MTB's). I noticed I changed in the early 80's as motorcycle brake feel and power did a huge jump. The local motorcycle training keeps crapping on about 4 finger braking and giving more power. Didn't bother argueing with them. IT DOESEN'T. The vast majority of hand grip comes from your first 2 fingers AND tightening your WHOLE hand stiffens your forearm and decreases control and flexibility, by being too tight on the bike.
One thing though, "brake feel" isn't just limited to the pads/lever/ mastercyl to caliper ratio/ lines. The suspension compliance AND tyre compliance both contribute to what you think you are feeling from the brakes. I remember changing an rd350 from Avons to the (then) new Dunlop K91's. The 91's were the first of the continuing Dunlop tradition of extremely harsh tyre casings. First ride I though my brakes had stopped working properly as there seemed to be minimal feedback. EVERYTHING else was the same except the tyre.
The opposite happened with the change from Dual sport Metzlers on my TR650 Husky to the much more compliant Michelin Road Pilot 4's ( my fav tyre by a huge amount). All of a sudden the braking feedback soared.

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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I like Gregjet's comments they make sense. I use one finger braking sometimes at lower speeds, but I have no need to switch levers, at least not until one or the other is damaged. One advantage I can think of for the short levers is rev matching while applying the brakes on a down shift, similar to heel and toeing on cars, it allows some throttle grip. But while easier perhaps with short levers, its' not impossible with the long ones either.
Everyone develops their own style, I don't think it is either or, but what your comfortable with according to your riding style.

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I agree about "feel at the contact patch", as I said earlier it's all related.

'16 Yamaha FZ-07, '15 Yamaha FZ-09

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The local motorcycle training keeps crapping on about 4 finger braking and giving more power. Didn't bother argueing with them. IT DOESEN'T. 
Well, put a tension gauge on the lever and you'll sing a different tune. :) but does it matter in the practical sense of how much you ordinarily squeeze the lever? Probably not enough to get excited over. 
Gregjet, you forget we're training riders in good methodology with no regard for what bike they'll choose. If everyone was going with a FZ07 or some GSXR we could teach middle-finger braking. But instead we have to target Hardleys that have levers that come back to the bar or have single piston calipers trying to stop 800lbs, or some beater 200cc that still uses drum brakes as well as S1000RR that will stop dead in it's tracks if you but caress the lever. The point is we're teaching a technique that is most correct over the widest set of possibilities. Post graduation, students are free to do as they damn well please. 
 
The other reason for the 4-fingers "rule" is when students (and some grads) brake especially when split-finger, they end up putting their entire arm into it and twist the throttle. So now the engine is revving and they are trying to brake. A not-insignificant number freak out and just let go of both the clutch and brake. Merriment ensues especially when on the tight confines of the training pad. Sometimes people get run over.
 
But if your mind keeps going back to your instructor chastising you to use 4 fingers on the lever, well, I think my job here is done. :)
 
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The point you make Matt, about the entire arm also applies in reverse. When braking and changing down, 4 finger braking stops you blipping the throttle and braking at the same time. The instructors here described Brake, release, blip, brake,release, blip...Sorry but I see that as inherently disconnecting the rider from the road surface and traction feedback.
If you use 4 fingers the throttle can rotate around and be locked in place during the braking force, so the engine is reving ( especially for beginners).
I don't think there is a modern bike on the road nowdays that won't stop full brakepower with 2 fingers ( at road speeds).
Even Harleys ( I believe ) now have reasonable brakes , I have been told. Not sure it's true. Hayes were never that good on Motorcycles nor mountain bikes). I haven't ridden on for a VERY long time ( thankfully), but I remember the 1" bars made for a huge handgrip, which made 4 finger braking remove almost all control from the bar.
The entire arm brake/throttle is a technique thing that instructors should be teaching so people do it properly, not avoiding it to make them use 4 fingers.
One very important point I have to add is the positioning of the lever/finger point. Most people run the lever hard up against the switchblock, so the finger grip point is too close to the pivot. This means that you are getting much lower leverage ( and lever displacement) when applying the brakes. By running the lever post furthur along the bars ( ie closer to the triple clamps), you can almost double the leverage. That gives you more control and power. Even more than using 4 fingers. Most times there should be a space between the lever post and the switch block.
This becomes most important when riding in slippery conditions or the dirt where traction feedback is imperative.
Put a tension gauge on the lever and move the post in and have a look at the results. Even more interesting is asking someone to try and maintain a EVEN pressure with 4 fingers and the lever outwards and 2 fingers with the lever moved in. I did it with MTB's ( I am a MTB coach) to see because braking traction for these is extremely critical. Low weight, low traction extreme turning angles. For them we now recommend that the finger contact point is no closer than half way along the lever and recommend that people attempt to use ONE finger ( I can't do it, been using 2 fingers too long).
I agree that on the older bikes that whole hand strength was necessary. My 4 leading shoe Ducati brake required monster forearms and made throttle control very difficult during braking. Even my Honda CB250RS required considerable force and it was ridiculously light . But that was when the science of piston matching, brake pad material or cable brake leverage was...er... primitive.
 
People are just as likely to get run over dropping the bike because the haven't changed right down during braking and try to accelerate away , because they haven't been able to blip. True a lot of modern gearboxes WILL allow clutchless non blip change downs, but Hondas , in the main, still won't nor will most Euro bikes.
I don't see 4 finger braking as good methodology. I see it as bad ergonomics and technique. Sorry Matt but it is a big bee in my bonnet, this one. 4 finger braking stiffens your WHOLE forearm AND some muscles in your upper arm. Just try it even without bars. Grip thumb and the first two fingers in pressing them together. Have a look at the muscles in your UPPER arm nearest the elbow. Now do it with ALL 4 fingers. The muscles in your upper arm is now tensioned and your whole arm is stiffened.
I see it like the 10 to 2 and 9/3 steering wheel hand position in cars. It was correct, but now isn't, because of technology progress.
Of course, like me not being able to one finger brake on the MTB, I suspect going to 2 from 4 will be a bit of a muscle memory step for long time users.
In the end it is what works for you, but I maintain my position, not from dogma, but reasoned arguement and experimentation.

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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, 4 finger braking stops you blipping the throttle and braking at the same time. The instructors here described Brake, release, blip, brake,release, blip...
I brake and blip at the same time with 4 (well 3, my bike came with shorties and that's all the fingers that will fit till I replace). But goodness me, what kind of nonsense is this brake/release/blip sequence? Must be an Aussie'ism. MSF in USA sure doesn't teach nor even mention such a thing. I've been to several "track schools" and that's not been on the curricula either.
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Yeah I was pretty surprised by it. My ex English Met police motorcyclist friend told me that is how they were taught as well ( a fair while ago and on BMW's so that would influence things). I think there is a lot of stuff that has been learned and taught over the years that is out of date, an just keeps getting taught. The police here are taught to ride in a stiff bolt upright manner completely unsuited to modern bikes and insist it is the correct way. Funny that police motorcycle accident rate is higher than the general public. They sure have that one down pat.
I particularly have concerns about the correct technique for braking with modern high performing ABS systems. Now let me point out I DON'T know what the genuinely optimal method is. I also suspect no one else does either yet either, but I would really like to be enlightened. All of the techniques I have seen have been developed for non ABS and the braking curve characteristics are totally different. Of course ABS is still developing and any technique could be obsolete almost as soon as it is developed. Same applies for active traction and suspension systems. They WILL effect the requirements of a rider input.

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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Those used to non ABS braking from years of experience will probably hate ABS as it takes control right out of your hands.You tend to get lazy about correct braking technique. That said, my MT07 with ABS has been great for transitioning back to larger bikes after a few years of riding small bikes in Asia, it allows you to be sloppy and will correct your minor indiscretions safely. It is another example of technology being both beneficial and detrimental at the same time. I prefer total control or at least switchable ABS which the MT07 lacks.
But lets not turn this into an ABS thread, just saw it mentioned above.
As an aside, driver tests in Europe require braking in such a way as to prevent the ABS from actuating, if it does you fail.

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I have been riding and racing motorcycles for over 40years and while the early forms of ABS were bloody aweful as they completely screwed up the brake/road feel the newer ones are just wonderful. My first bike with good ABS was my BMW F800R which had the then brand new Bosch system ( 2010) It was incredible. Didn't know it was working 99.999% of the time. Only really affected the lever feel at slow speeds. Saved me from a horrible death at 100kph in Tropical monsoon rain. Only raced one bike with it and need a little technique adjustment but not much.
I really like good ABS. REALLY like it. And I wouldn't have a car without anymore, full stop ( pun intended)
 
Unfortunately my MT07 doesn't have ABS ( they do now) , because being built as a beginner LAMS bike for Australia, Yamaha believes beginner riders should die... Not including what is probably the most important safety feature for a beginner on a beginner's "designed" bike, seems ...er...shortsighted. Yamaha actually stated the non inclusion was because beginners wouldn't want to pay the extra $500 it would cost to include. But then Yamaha after saying the bike was built for Australian use , neglected to put a fuel tank on that would get you to the next proper town.

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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My only motorcycle ABS experience was with a 1996 K1100RS BMW. In 6 years of ownership, the only time the ABS kicked in was on dry ground - usually going fairly slow. Seems the suspension and ABS did not like braking on roads with frost heaves. That would send the ABS into a frenzy. My reflexive reaction to not slowing down was to squeeze harder - wrong! That of course, just make it worse. After recalibrating decades of habits, I came to peace with it, but still, not a good experience - especially the time I skitter-pooled half way across an intersection, levers vibrating madly on dry asphalt, one block from my house.
 
On the flip side, my buddy with a SuperDuke1290R (who used to have a '95 K11RS with the same wonky ABS system) has not mentioned the ABS on that KTM even once. Have another friend with a Tuono 1100 Factory - again, no mention of ABS (lots of wheelie stories though, lol)
 
So it can be done properly w/o interfering with the fun, until life and limb are really in harm's way. Some day it'll be on all bikes. It might add some cost, hopefully it'll drop insurance rates a bit as well.

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