Matris F15K - Problems unsolved - customer’s opinion request

[etorty]

Hello guys!
At the mid of March I’ve installed the mono Bitubo XXF11 (http://fz07.org/post/87681/thread), and I’m really happy with that.
 
At the begin af April my mechanic had mounted on my MT-07 the F15K cartridge. At the same time we've changed the bushings (with the AllBalls kit) and the dust&oil seals (with the SKF kit).
At the first time with the standard Motorex 5W and the internal preload in the middle position, the fork was very hard to move. Really stiff.
One month later (middle of May) I've returned to my mechanic (280 km from my home...) in order to change the oil with the Motorex 2,5W and move the internal preload to the lower position. After this change, the forks was good and the hydraulic control was fine.
Only the Static Sag was small... but the bike on the road was fine for me.
Unfortunately, three days after, the forks become highly unstable. Mostly bouncing on the asphalt.
Spoken with Matris, they ask me to send the forks to the factory for an inspection (and a repair, possibly).
They've found a little particle of aluminium in the washers of the Rebound leg. The R was open and the R control was null. They said it was a production fault, not a fault of my mechanic (they is a real surgeon, on the bike).
They've solved this problem (in the R leg) and they've done a modify in the C leg, in order to have the compression control more smooth for the road use (because they've had some messages from the F15K customers about the stiffness of the C leg). I don't have asked for this change... but I've said "thank you". Unfortunately they've put the 5W in the forks (I've asked to put in the 2,5W).
It was a big surprise for me to verify that the fork was no good like before.
It was even unstable (less than before) and it was not copying the asphalt.
I've changed the oil at home (I know how to do), I've put in the 2,5W again. A little better, but not like "it was".
 
At this point I've sent the forks to my mechanic, they've put in the OE internals, with the Motorex 15W.
 
In the next days I'll send the F15K to Matris, in order to have some kind of refund, even partial.
Yesterday I’ve done a little tour in order to verify how the forks are now going on the road (with the OE internals), and the behavior is fine: no problem on the bad asphalt, no too much dive in hard breaking (thanks to the 15W, I think).
At this time, the fork is better than it was in the last days with the F15K. Not a good thing, but it was not a surprise.
And I think that this cartridge have something wrong. I don’t know if it’s only mine…
My cartridge was one of the first produced by Matris for the MT-07 (Matris have said this).
 
 
I remember that in this forum someone have mounted the F15K, with problems of stiffness.
I remember also that @Pattonme have solved the problems of the C leg with his work. But I think that is absurd to buy a product and to be constrained to do a substantial change in order to get this product correctly working. Anyway, my compliments to Pattonme for his work.
 
 
A this point a little request to all of you with the F15K:
please, can you write in this thread when you've mounted the cartridges and how is your situation now? And what's the works that you've done in order to get it working?
I'm curious to know if there's someone that had the F15K working without any hassle.
 
 
Another request (a little off-topic): I remember that someone have installed a mono from Matris, and I remember good opinions.
Please, can you add this detail to your post? I’m happy to collect good news about that.
 
I thank you in advance for your reply(s)!
Cheers
Enrico

[etorty]

c'mon mates, no one of you want write his thoughts about this cartridge?
 
I remember @fzonly1 , and @rowdy , @gigero , @sorkyah , @twotone , @007, @randy2100 , @norwest , @paulibiker , @fflier9 , @rick , @fzoooh7 , @easternkayaker, have the kit installed OR they was interested to install it.
Please, let me know your opinion about the F15K and what you've done (eventually) in order to get it work.
 
@pattonme : please, do you remember how many F15K do you have modified? And please, do you remember the thoughts of the relevant owners before your modify? After, only smiles.
 
Thank you to all of you!

[sorkyah]

c'mon mates, no one of you want write his thoughts about this cartridge? 
I remember @fzonly1, and @rowdy, @gigero, @sorkyah, @twotone, @N/A, @randy2100, @norwest, @paulibiker, @fflier9, @rick, @fzoooh7, @Eastern Kayaker, have the kit installed OR they was interested to install it.
Please, let me know your opinion about the F15K and what you've done (eventually) in order to get it work.
 
@pattonme: please, do you remember how many F15K do you have modified? And please, do you remember the thoughts of the relevant owners before your modify? After, only smiles.
 
Thank you to all of you!

I have @pattonme's fork retrofit.... not the Matris kit

[etorty]

...and I'm sure you're happy with it.
Thank you, @sorkyah!

[sorkyah]

...and I'm sure you're happy with it. Thank you, @sorkyah!

i am indeed..
just need to service em
 
 
The fluid is over 10k miles

[twotone]

Etorty
 
Sorry I didn't comment as I don't have specific info you asked for, only general advice, although new cartridges are seen as a cure for poor factory damper rod systems, you could do better with drop in valve kits from cogent dynamics or Traxxion dynamics (GVE)
It seems that Matris and andreani require adaption for road use, so the home mechanic is really at a loss, I suggest the drop in valves as an easy and cheap alternative, email norwest suspension for further info on these, and select correct Springs for your weight, not what Matris installed.
Good luck,
I am interested in your success in obtaining a quality ride, so keep posting your findings :-)
 
There is now a new cartridge kit available from Ohlins
If you so desire, and so far only one owner has it installed
And claims "it doesn't suck"
But there has been some positive remark by JanM (ohlins guru) re the general specifications as apposed to the other two.

[sorkyah]

Etorty 
Sorry I didn't comment as I don't have specific info you asked for, only general advice, although new cartridges are seen as a cure for poor factory damper rod systems, you could do better with drop in valve kits from cogent dynamics or Traxxion dynamics (GVE)
It seems that Matris and andreani require adaption for road use, so the home mechanic is really at a loss, I suggest the drop in valves as an easy and cheap alternative, email norwest suspension for further info on these, and select correct Springs for your weight, not what Matris installed.
Good luck,
I am interested in your success in obtaining a quality ride, so keep posting your findings :-)
 
There is now a new cartridge kit available from Ohlins
If you so desire, and so far only one owner has it installed
And claims "it doesn't suck"
But there has been some positive remark by JanM (ohlins guru) re the general specifications as apposed to the other two.

Bitubo also has a drop-in cartridge kit in the works
@bellissimoto mentioned it a bit back

[pattonme]

At last tally I think I sold 7 F15Ks to a mix of FZ07 and others. Every one of them save two(?) left here modified if I remember. One non-modified kit came back for fixes and has since seen successful use. Folks from other boards have contacted me for fixes to their F15K on things like Triumphs and others marques - all with the same complaint. I've been in contact with OP on a few occasions during his unfortunate experience but there's not a lot I can do from this side of the pond.
 
And yes, I'm "known" to the Matris factory and not in the nicest of tones. I can't imagine how they think their kit is usable except on European race tracks which are much smoother than their US counterparts.
 

[orangecrush]

@etorty, I have the F15K installed in my XSR 700.
 
Out of the box they are nicely made and look a quality item.
Installed in the bike it's a different story. I quoted my (in full gear) weight when ordering from Carpimoto here in Europe. They arrived with 9.5 springs installed which gave me approx 5mm of static sag! Even for a race bike on a smooth track thats not enough.
Ridden on the UK's crappy roads it's a wrist shattering experience. Compression damping seems to almost lock out over sharp edged hits and the only usable position on the "C" adjuster is fully open.
 
Long story short, I've installed 8.5 springs and 2.5 weight fork oil in the "C" leg which has improved the situation, but it's not exactly a compliant ride. From an "expert" suspension company I expected better, much better.
 
Pattonme supplied me with one of his shim stack and valve kits for the C leg which I have yet to fit. That's a job for winter, and a big disappointment that it needs to be done at all on a brand new product that is specifically designed for our bike.
 
I also fitted the Matris rear shock which thankfully works well, although was also fitted with too heavy a spring rate.
 
Good luck with a refund with Matris, please keep the thread updated so we know the outcome.

[norwest]

c'mon mates, no one of you want write his thoughts about this cartridge? 
I remember @fzonly1 , and @rowdy , @gigero , @sorkyah , @twotone , @007 , @randy2100 , @norwest , @paulibiker , @fflier9 , @rick , @fzoooh7 , @easternkayaker , have the kit installed OR they was interested to install it.
Please, let me know your opinion about the F15K and what you've done (eventually) in order to get it work.
 
@pattonme : please, do you remember how many F15K do you have modified? And please, do you remember the thoughts of the relevant owners before your modify? After, only smiles.
 
Thank you to all of you!

Sorry I don't have a Matris kit either. 

[rowdy]

c'mon mates, no one of you want write his thoughts about this cartridge? 
I remember @fzonly1 , and @rowdy , @gigero , @sorkyah , @twotone , @007 , @randy2100 , @norwest , @paulibiker , @fflier9 , @rick , @fzoooh7 , @easternkayaker , have the kit installed OR they was interested to install it.
Please, let me know your opinion about the F15K and what you've done (eventually) in order to get it work.
 
@pattonme : please, do you remember how many F15K do you have modified? And please, do you remember the thoughts of the relevant owners before your modify? After, only smiles.
 
Thank you to all of you!

@etorty I have the kit, but haven't installed it, because of the the problems others have had.  I've been following the related threads, and will probably send mine to @pattonme for rebuild when I feel like being without the bike for a while.  Even before I bought the kit,  I had replaced the springs and oil, and it made a big difference, so getting the cartridge upgrade isn't as urgent for me.  I was an early purchaser of the kit, and had no idea about the performance issues when I bought it.  I'm very disappointed about it.
 

[Eastern Kayaker]

@etorty , I was checking out the different fork upgrade options at the time. My forks are still stock for now.

[etorty]

@rowdy , @sorkyah , @twotone , @norwest , @orangecrush , @easternkayaker :
thank you very much for your replies!
 
@pattonme : thank you to you too!
I have one more question (and others will come, I suspect...).
You have installed the F15K on other bikes. Maybe also on a SV650, or a Kawa ER-6n?
I've done some comparison (graphical, for now) with images with a good resolution.
And I've noticed that the MT-07 have the forks a little shorter than the SV650.
I've fitted a square on the rear wheel of the 07, than adapted the scale of the SV image to a second (identical) square on the rear wheel of the SV, and then I've overlapped the two images.
With a thick line I've measured the length of the fork of the two bikes (from the center of the wheel axle to the top of the top triple), and compared the two measures.
The result is that the SV's fork is about 4% longer than the 07's fork.
Similar results if I compare the 07 with the Kawa ER6-n
http://imgur.com/a/zEnP5
 
I've done this comparison because some months ago, during a phone call to Matris, they've told me that the F15K was developed also for this bike (and others, I suppose).
When I've seen that the F15K preloads the spring with a consistent number of mm, much more than the OE suspension, I've start to think that maybe the 07 fork is too short whatever is the position of the internal preload.
I've measured (when the F15K was in) a standard preload of 17,5 mm when the internal preload is at the lower position.
But according the Matris's standard setup, the internal preload must be at the middle position, and in this case the preload goes to 21,5 mm.
On the Service Manual of the 07 I've read that the preload of the OE spring is 7 mm (the difference of the length of the spring installed ad free, out of the stanchion).
I've found also an interesting video of Dave Moss about the preload of the spring. They said that the preload can vary from 8 to 15 mm.
[video src=https://youtu.be/ICK_2tX9_Qg?t=5m30s]
 
What do you think about that (lengths, preload, other bikes)?
 
 
 

[twotone]

8-15 mm is a good range, going wildly beyond that will add harshness, but there is other things wrong in those kits as the spring rates seem too high, and as reported here the damping way too stiff,
As far as length, some kits are made up with spacers to fit different length forks.
So bottom line, it's more than just preload.
You really should move on with your refund and go to Ohlins or drop in valves

[pattonme]

Ohlins NIX30 uses a min preload of 5mm or so. The FZ07 comes with 18mm, the SV650 I believe was more like 12-15mm. I believe the aftermarket industry "rule of thumb" is 8-10mm as a starting point.
 
Yes I have a kit for an SV650 but it's not yet installed. I will absolutely be cutting new snap-ring channels into the cartridge tube so the spring is not under excessive preload. I've sold a handful of kits to R3 riders. And no, there isn't any difference between them internally. They all suffer from the issue I documented in that long Matris thread.
 
But to your point about fork length, when I build my in-house special the extension I use for the FZ07 is 10mm shorter than the one I use for the SV650 and R3. So, you can read into that if they baselined the perch to be the same across all bikes, then indeed Matris added 10mm of preload to the system that isn't there for the other bikes.
 
 

[fzonly1]

I have these installed and honestly am considering selling the set for a simple set of springs and preload adjusters. They have been nothing but trouble. I had the same situation with the C leg being too stiff. Now it just has a bouncy response. Almost too soft.
Unless you plan to have these re-worked to resolve the issue before install, I would not recommend this product. Rear shock from matris is great however.

[rick]

I have these installed and honestly am considering selling the set for a simple set of springs and preload adjusters. They have been nothing but trouble. I had the same situation with the C leg being too stiff. Now it just has a bouncy response. Almost too soft. Unless you plan to have these re-worked to resolve the issue before install, I would not recommend this product. Rear shock from matris is great however.

Well, that's sure disappointing.  
As I've said before, the Andreani setup is far better than OE out of the box( light fluid in the C side is a must), but it's still a bit harsh with big hits. I have at hand Mr. Pattonme's "fix" bits for the Andreani setup and am itching to get the time to install them. Should be able to get my outdoor painting done tomorrow and Sunday (ladders are far more dangerous than any motorcycle, imo) - so I should be able to get at this Labor Day weekend and hopefully even have some time to get in a test ride. 
 
In the long run, it seems to me Pattonme's retrofit 4 valve system might just be the best functioning and definitely the least expensive choice of the bunch. Live and learn, eh? (or die stupid, lol) 
 
There are just too many compromises trying to get BPF behavior from just 2 small pistons.  .