Turbo build

[dpc46]

Turbo build
 
So I am very hesitant on posting this as I hate starting/ sharing a project and not finishing it. Maybe this might be the push to get someone to do it to theirs also.
 
I toyed with the idea of doing a turbo on my GSXR 750 for a long time but never went for it. My fabrication skills were not up to where I wanted them (still not). I am not independently wealthy so I cant just buy a turbo kit, so I'll take a stab at making it.
 
Keep in mind this will be a budget built. I am not over concerned with looks but rather functionality. I am not looking for crazy horsepower. I am not a professional. I love tinkering in the garage and seeing how things work but building it myself.
 
Through research I narrowed it down to 2 main types of turbos. A Borg Warner K03 and a Garrett TD04 (or something equivalent). The K03 comes on almost every VW/ Audi. The TD04 comes on many cars, the ones I found the most of were off a Saab 9-5 and 9000.
 
I was hoping to find a smaller Garrett GT12 but they don't come on any vehicles around here and I won't pay $800 for a brand new one. This is a budget build after all.
 
I went to the local Pick-N-Pull in search of the cars.
 
The Saab turbos are typically mounted behind the engine, up against the firewall so that was going to be option #2 just because the process of removal. (Some older Saab 9000s have the turbos mounted up front and are very easy to remove but the ones at my junk yard were toast)
 
I found a VW Passat that had almost the entire front clip removed already. Someone was going after the top end of the motor and had the bumper, radiators, exhaust manifold and intake system already removed. All I had to do was remove the oil feed to the turbo and unbolt it.
 
 
After bringing it home I took off the water system as I will not be using it
 

 
 
I will be running the integrated wastegate. This build is on a budged and I don't see any reason to use an external wastegate. The only thing I don't like about the factory WG is that its kinda in the way where I want to mount the turbo and it's set at 7.5 psi. That sounds low but after talking with Nels at 2WDW he said bikes typically create 10hp per psi. So that's a potential of 75HP and 30%-40% torque increase.
 
Here are the specs for the turbo.
 
K03-029
Compressor Size: 36/50mm
Turbine Size: 40/45mm
Approx Power Rating: 160HP
 
I was able to get my hands on a factory exhaust system from another member on this site. I will be cutting up the OEM headers to create my exhaust manifold. After the turbo the exhaust will go down and go into my Akra system directly under the oil pan. I will be able to retain the O2 sensor.
 
I was thinking for the routing of my charge pipe (pipe going from the turbo to my throttle bodies) I will relocate my horn and keep the piping close to the engine and frame.
 
For now I plan on running a 2" for the charge pipe to the intake.
 
I will not be running an intercooler. Because the turbo is mounted up front and the piping is so short I shouldn't have an issue with the air getting too hot.
 
I have been looking up a bunch of different ideas when it comes to the intake manifold. Nels told me the most important thing is to make sure the charge pipe is evenly split between the cylinders. If I were to enter the intake box from one side or the other then the opposing cylinder will have issues. The cylinder that is closest to the charge pipe will rob air from the other cylinder.
 
This would be a correct design.
 

 
Oil system
 
For the oil system I plan on TEE tapping our oil pressure sensor switch. According to the maintenance manual we have ~40.6psi at 5,000rpm. The turbo requirements are 22psi at isle and 65psi at WOT according to the Internet. Again, talking with Nels he doesn't think it should be an issue.
 
(Not from our bike but same idea)

 
 
Fuel system
 
For now I plan to run the stock injectors. Nels said the injectors might be able to handle the added power. It won't be hard to swap them out if they are able not able to keep up. I saw on another post someone saying to get Hayabusa 550 injectors. I can give those a try depending on what the Dyno says.
 
Engine management
 
This is another thing we are going to test. I will be running the stock ecm. No Power Commander or anything. Because the technology in our ecm from the factory there might be enough adjustment. If not I will be picking up a PCV. They make a PCV-PTI that is designed for forced induction but not for our bikes. Calling with them I can purchase the extra needed parts for around $120.
 
Nels said in his experience when tuning a turbo on a motorcycle it's different then a car or truck. With cars you are spoiling a larger turbo with bigger power gains. The power comes on heavy later in the RPMs (known as turbo lag) This bike should have a lot more linear of a torque curve with next to zero lag.
 
I want to stress this one more. This is a budget build. I have not figured every detail out. If I don't know something I'll ask but generally wing it and see what the outcome is. I can not promise this will be completed. Between my work, my never ending honey do list, the terrorist we call my 2 year old daughter and just life in general.
 
If you guys have any info on anything I would love to know it or just your 2 cents on the matter. I'm brand new to turbos so any new info is much appreciated.
 
 
I'm currently building the exhaust manifold and will be taking pictures when I figure that out. After that I will build the intake manifold.

[turbokraken]

I cannot wait to see how this turns out.

[cookfreeordie89]

Good luck!!

[Mr.Puss]

This sounds like a novel project. Wish I had the 'know how' to mess around like this. Cant wait to see what comse of it all!

[lldemonll]

So, you know what an intercooler does, right? Because it doesn't sound like it...
 
And intercooler is placed between the turbo and the intake manifold and is pressurized. It's cooling that air that's been compressed and heated by the turbo before it enters the intake manifold. It's not cooling the air before it passes through the turbo

[delbee1]

I have no experience with turbo charged bikes but plenty with cars, the one thing that springs to mind at the moment is maybe dividing the 2 cylinders of exhaust gas all the way to the flange where the turbo will be mounted, how a twin scroll manifold would be set up, I say this because of what people say about the uneven firing of the bike. Very interesing project and look forward to seeing how you get on
Heres a picture of a manifold that I'm buying for my car so you can see what I mean

[delbee1]

Here check this out, may also give you so ideas

[dpc46]

So, you know what an intercooler does, right? Because it doesn't sound like it... 
And intercooler is placed between the turbo and the intake manifold and is pressurized. It's cooling that air that's been compressed and heated by the turbo before it enters the intake manifold. It's not cooling the air before it passes through the turbo

 
 
 
You are assuming I know zero about how a turbo system work. I am fully aware of where the intercooler is places in the system. Plus how about you re read what I wrote, I not one said or implied the intercooler goes before the turbo. I said the intercooler may not be needed because the the charge pipe is so short. The reason why cars need to run intercoolers is because the turbo is typical mounted behind the engine, sandwiched between the the engine and the firewall. They also have the radiator, intercooler and a bumper blocking it from getting clean-cool air. They need to run an intercooler because of all that. Well guess where a turbo on a motorcycle is mounted? Directly up front. Last time I checked we don't have any fairings on our bike to block air.
 
Before you start ripping on someone how about you actually read and think about why they would be doing something.

[dpc46]

I have no experience with turbo charged bikes but plenty with cars, the one thing that springs to mind at the moment is maybe dividing the 2 cylinders of exhaust gas all the way to the flange where the turbo will be mounted, how a twin scroll manifold would be set up, I say this because of what people say about the uneven firing of the bike. Very interesing project and look forward to seeing how you get on Heres a picture of a manifold that I'm buying for my car so you can see what I mean

 
 
Wouldn't the only reason to run a twin manifold is if you have a twin scroll turbo? I don't know of any OEM twin scroll turbos that I could find at a junkyard. I actually thought it would be funny to run a twin turbo style set up. One turbo for each side cylinder and then both exit into one dump pipe back to the muffler. I would assume it would have to be two really small turbos to do that.

[delbee1]

I have no experience with turbo charged bikes but plenty with cars, the one thing that springs to mind at the moment is maybe dividing the 2 cylinders of exhaust gas all the way to the flange where the turbo will be mounted, how a twin scroll manifold would be set up, I say this because of what people say about the uneven firing of the bike. Very interesing project and look forward to seeing how you get on Heres a picture of a manifold that I'm buying for my car so you can see what I mean

Wouldn't the only reason to run a twin manifold is if you have a twin scroll turbo? I don't know of any OEM twin scroll turbos that I could find at a junkyard. I actually thought it would be funny to run a twin turbo style set up. One turbo for each side cylinder and then both exit into one dump pipe back to the muffler. I would assume it would have to be two really small turbos to do that.

On cars yes, one 4 pot bikes yes but I was suggesting as there was a thread about exhaust and having a 2 into 2 exhaust because of the effect the gases have on each other due to the uneven firing pattern, just thought this may help by seperating the gases all the way to the turbo. I'm not even sure they do a twin scroll that small. I did look into which cars have a GT12 turbo and found that one of the smart car models comes with one, do you guys have smart cars over there? Might be worth a look
Would the turbo not fit where they fit it on the MT/FZ 09 in the video?
 

[lldemonll]

You are assuming I know zero about how a turbo system work. I am fully aware of where the intercooler is places in the system. Plus how about you re read what I wrote, I not one said or implied the intercooler goes before the turbo. I said the intercooler may not be needed because the the charge pipe is so short. The reason why cars need to run intercoolers is because the turbo is typical mounted behind the engine, sandwiched between the the engine and the firewall. They also have the radiator, intercooler and a bumper blocking it from getting clean-cool air. They need to run an intercooler because of all that. Well guess where a turbo on a motorcycle is mounted? Directly up front. Last time I checked we don't have any fairings on our bike to block air.  
Before you start ripping on someone how about you actually read and think about why they would be doing something.

I beg to differ on a turbo always being behind the engine.  Sometimes yes that's true, for many other applications they're side-by-side (any longitudinal engine) or in front. 
Yes, part of the reason is picking up air from inside the engine bay, but that still has nothing to do with how short the charge pipe is being the reason that no intercooler is needed

[Guest Ralph]

Fiat get 105 bhp at 5500 rpm from their little 875 turbo twin car engine,
they use a Plenum Chamber and feed the throttle body's from that.
They use about 1/1.2 bar about 14.5/17.5  psi 

[avanti]

Might I add some apparently needed clarification? I have been a cobuilder and driver of a twin-turbo Bonneville record-holder for a couple decades (running there longer but first of many record wasn't until the mid '90s). We run an (admittedly 4-wheeled) antique-orphan brand that requires we fab or significantly modify everything ourselves but the Carrillo rods and Arias pistons and still set records at over 220mph with a 55 year old cast iron engine of less than 300 cubic-inches.
 
In any event, when air is compressed it heats up. It matters not in the least where the turbo is located nor how long the connections are. Granted these things may aggravate the situation, such as sucking in pre-heated air and compressing that. But, physics is such that any compressed gas will heat up and when it expands it cools--no way around that. So, charge-coolers (commonly called intercoolers) are used between the turbo outlet (also used with some superchargers such as the Vortech, Paxton, and such) and the next link in the intake system, which can vary. No, not everyone uses an intercooler but if not, it is customary to lower the static compression ratio to accommodate. Intercooling is not always via air-to-air or air-to-water systems. Lingenfelter used nitrous oxide to cool the charge in one of his GM B'ville sedans many years ago... a LOT of nitrous!!!
 
Good luck with the project and I hope we can follow your progress!!!
 
(Below is a pic of the twin-turbo and twin air-to-water intercoolers on each side of the engine.  Below that is a Vortech supercharged street-engine with a single large air-to-water intercooler.  Btw, we fab all that gooble-de-gook, including making our own roller-cams from scratch.)
 

[hamfisted]

As mentioned above, intercoolers are needed because pressurizing the intake air causes the temperature to rise. Engine heat may contribute somewhat as well, but it's a much smaller effect compared to the compression heating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law
 
You can still run forced induction without an intercooler, but you will want to limit boost and may need to pull timing to avoid pinging/detonation. The car applications I've seen typically limit boost to ~6 psi with no charge cooling. Obviously higher octane fuel is a must too.
 
Also, I'd be very surprised if the stock ECM and injectors can keep up with a boosted engine without any adjustments. If you try it, my guess is that it will run so lean it won't even ignite. (had this happen when doing a supercharger install and the vacuum line to the piggyback fuel controller was kinked)
 

[sorkyah]

Might I add some apparently needed clarification? I have been a cobuilder and driver of a twin-turbo Bonneville record-holder for a couple decades (running there longer but first of many record wasn't until the mid '90s). We run an (admittedly 4-wheeled) antique-orphan brand that requires we fab or significantly modify everything ourselves but the Carrillo rods and Arias pistons and still set records at over 220mph with a 55 year old cast iron engine of less than 300 cubic-inches. 
In any event, when air is compressed it heats up. It matters not in the least where the turbo is located nor how long the connections are. Granted these things may aggravate the situation, such as sucking in pre-heated air and compressing that. But, physics is such that any compressed gas will heat up and when it expands it cools--no way around that. So, charge-coolers (commonly called intercoolers) are used between the turbo outlet (also used with some superchargers such as the Vortech, Paxton, and such) and the next link in the intake system, which can vary. No, not everyone uses an intercooler but if not, it is customary to lower the static compression ratio to accommodate. Intercooling is not always via air-to-air or air-to-water systems. Lingenfelter used nitrous oxide to cool the charge in one of his GM B'ville sedans many years ago... a LOT of nitrous!!!
 
Good luck with the project and I hope we can follow your progress!!!
 
(Below is a pic of the twin-turbo and twin air-to-water intercoolers on each side of the engine.  Below that is a Vortech supercharged street-engine with a single large air-to-water intercooler.  Btw, we fab all that gooble-de-gook, including making our own roller-cams from scratch.)

Avanti... can you adopt me?
just cleaning those beautiea would be a treat.... letting them feel the wrath of my right foot would be a dream come true
 

[sorkyah]

 
 

Fiat get 105 bhp at 5500 rpm from their little 875 turbo twin car engine, they use a Plenum Chamber and feed the throttle body's from that.
They use about 1/1.2 bar about 14.5/17.5  psi 

 
Are you talking about the twin spark? Or the older abarths?
i know their modern motors are producing just shy of 160 in the turbo and 195 in the abarth
buth both are intercoled and limited to 21psi boost
 

[dpc46]

I think one thing people are forgetting is this isn't some crazy high boost or horsepower project. How do car manufactures get away without needing to use an intercooler? Look at the second comment on this page, there is a link showing the fz09 turbo. They are not using one. I'm not saying they are pointless and not needed. I really do appreciate the wisdom that some if you guys have but after the research I have done and what my tuner says we MIGHT be able to get away with not using one. I already looked into what vehicle I can get one off of if I do end up needing one. The 2000-2002 Audi S4 biturbo has two small charge coolers, not one big one. Most S4 owners don't like those and go to the single large front mount. Well the OEM ones are smaller and *should* work for this application.

[dpc46]

Also, I'd be very surprised if the stock ECM and injectors can keep up with a boosted engine without any adjustments. If you try it, my guess is that it will run so lean it won't even ignite. (had this happen when doing a supercharger install and the vacuum line to the piggyback fuel controller was kinked)

 
 
 
I myself will be very surprised if the factory ECM can keep up. I'm not holding my breath. We figured we can just see what's going on once we get it on the Dyno and if it's too much we will order up the PCV.
 
 
 
 
I did see that the GT12 turbo did come on the Fiat 500 but those are still new here in the States and I didn't see a single one at the wrecking yard.
 
 
After watching that video in the second comment I really like where they mounted that turbo. i bet right where our pipe does the corkscrew, it might fight nicely. That's something to think about. I was able to get most of the piping for the exhaust and charge side. I started making the exhaust manifold for mounting it up front but if I can get some time today I will hopefully be able to get it all mocked up and tacked in place. I have a mig welder but will be tacking everything up and taking it over to a friends house to get everything tig welded to make it look pretty.
 
I bought a new motorcycle last night as a little project. My cousin was interested in getting a motorcycle and I scored on finding one. I knew an old friend that had a Kawasaki ER-6n and hated street riding. I asked him if he would take $1,000 cash and he said yes. The bike was in MINT condition when he got it but over the last year he tried taking it out when blacked out drunk and ended up dropping it a few times. He bent the bars and cracked the fairings. Other then that, and it being a Kawasaki.... It rode and sounded perfect. Figure that will be a great first bike for my cousin.

[pineappleunderthesea]

I think one thing people are forgetting is this isn't some crazy high boost or horsepower project. How do car manufactures get away without needing to use an intercooler? Look at the second comment on this page, there is a link showing the fz09 turbo. They are not using one. I'm not saying they are pointless and not needed. I really do appreciate the wisdom that some if you guys have but after the research I have done and what my tuner says we MIGHT be able to get away with not using one. I already looked into what vehicle I can get one off of if I do end up needing one. The 2000-2002 Audi S4 biturbo has two small charge coolers, not one big one. Most S4 owners don't like those and go to the single large front mount. Well the OEM ones are smaller and *should* work for this application.

I had a 2001 S4, and upgraded to the K04 turbos from the RS4, as well using the RS4 intercoolers which I believe were bigger, but I don't recall.  Never did the FMIC, I thought the two separate ones might be more efficient, but what do I know... 
All this to day that if you chose a K04 turbo over the K03, you could spool that thing up to 25 PSI !

[Guest Ralph]

 

Fiat get 105 bhp at 5500 rpm from their little 875 turbo twin car engine, they use a Plenum Chamber and feed the throttle body's from that.
They use about 1/1.2 bar about 14.5/17.5  psi 

Are you talking about the twin spark? Or the older abarths? i know their modern motors are producing just shy of 160 in the turbo and 195 in the abarth
buth both are intercoled and limited to 21psi boost

Think you will find it's the one with the 4 cylinder 1.4 engine that gives up to 160 bhp, one thing if you do fit the turbo you may get away with no silencer turbo's make reasonable
silencers.
Morini supposedly got about 70 bhp from a 350 turbo so if you can get it to work it could be exiting to ride
 

 
 

[dpc46]

I think one thing people are forgetting is this isn't some crazy high boost or horsepower project. How do car manufactures get away without needing to use an intercooler? Look at the second comment on this page, there is a link showing the fz09 turbo. They are not using one. I'm not saying they are pointless and not needed. I really do appreciate the wisdom that some if you guys have but after the research I have done and what my tuner says we MIGHT be able to get away with not using one. I already looked into what vehicle I can get one off of if I do end up needing one. The 2000-2002 Audi S4 biturbo has two small charge coolers, not one big one. Most S4 owners don't like those and go to the single large front mount. Well the OEM ones are smaller and *should* work for this application.

I had a 2001 S4, and upgraded to the K04 turbos from the RS4, as well using the RS4 intercoolers which I believe were bigger, but I don't recall.  Never did the FMIC, I thought the two separate ones might be more efficient, but what do I know... 
All this to day that if you chose a K04 turbo over the K03, you could spool that thing up to 25 PSI !

 
 
 
25psi... If it's true you can achieve 10hp PER psi then that would be 250hp on top of the 75 our bikes already make. I still would like to ride this thing.

[hamfisted]

My car (Mazdaspeed3) is at 306whp on the stock K04.   K03 is probably better suited to this application.
 
Also, it's all about flow rate, not boost. If you have fewer restrictions (e.g. free-flowing exhaust), you'll make more power at lower boost.
 

[avanti]

hamfisted, excellent additional info. Many don't understand that there is more to adding pressurization to an engine than just the "pressurizer." Thanks!
 
sorkyah, you really DON'T want to have to clean that stuff--I know. And, as for the right foot, yes it can be exciting. Case in point, when I was driving at B'lle one year (top engine) the boost regulator malfunctioned and boost went from about 20# to 40# instantly at just over 190mph. I got farther sideways than I thought possible to recover from. Fortunately, it settled down and I did 223 mph out-the-back-door... still with the boost all over the dial and repeatedly breaking traction.

[markstertt]

dpc46, fun idea and hope you keep with it...the only thought I had was in regards to fitting a knock sensor, if the PCV or whatever controller you use could utilize it and alter the ignition advance to suit, maybe keep you out of trouble. Hmmm, just had another idea, larger sump for more oil volume, larger radiator? I know, budget build...good luck, sounds like a lot of fun...Mark

[dpc46]

dpc46, fun idea and hope you keep with it...the only thought I had was in regards to fitting a knock sensor, if the PCV or whatever controller you use could utilize it and alter the ignition advance to suit, maybe keep you out of trouble. Hmmm, just had another idea, larger sump for more oil volume, larger radiator? I know, budget build...good luck, sounds like a lot of fun...Mark

 
 
my tuner doesn't seem to think the oil will be a problem. Doesn't think there will be an issue with pressure to the turbo or volume to the turbo or the crank. But it's something to keep an eye on. I just think my biggest issue will be if there are enough adjustments in the factory ECM. But if that's my biggest issue then that's not too bad. We can order up a PCV very easily.
 
I was able to fab up both flanges that bolt to both sides of the turbine housing. I originally planned on using EMT conduit as my collector pipe for getting the 2 header pipes into 1. But I don't like welding with that stuff and also don't like the look of it. I will be running to the local bike scrap yard hopefully today and go through their scrap exhaust bin to pick out exhaust tubing. I also was going to go back to 2 pipes after the turbo. The Akra system I have keeps the headers separate all the way back to behind the oil pan. For some reason I wanted to do that again but now decided to run a single pipe all the way back to the muffler. Just need to find some piping that will work for that and weld everything up
 
I have access to a mandrel bender through work that can bend pipe up 4" but the radius is waaaay to big. Hopefully I can find something that does a tighter radius.
 
 
One question hopefully someone could answer. On most aftermarket systems we have a corkscrew right before the muffler. I'm assuming that is to create back pressure? Will that be needed or would it be better to remove that corkscrew and just run a straight pipe from the turbo to the muffler?