Premium Member howworkclutch Posted September 26, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted September 26, 2014 I'll agree on th water attraction but only to a certain degree. Ethanol stabilizes at around 96% in atmosphere. But that's only for pure alcohol. It will certainly blend with water, but you have to put water in it. 10% ethanol is not going to hurt seals in a modern engine. You're talking roughly the same alcohol content as a strong beer or weak wine. I'm willing to bet that any damage done to I rings at that level if alcohol is from the other oxygenators found in gas. E85 maybe. But even then, it's because you're running it in an engine that wasn't designed for it. People freak out of ethanol for no reason. -HowWorkClutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MXRider Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 People freak out of ethanol for no reason. No, some of us have been working on bikes and cars for a long time and we have seen first hand how the new ethanol blended fuels have wreaked havoc on fuel systems. Another issue with ethanol is it's tendency to corrode softer metals like brass and aluminum. I have personally seen the after affects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeisan Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 ...the amount of fuel needed to provide this power is more than regular gas. It is not as efficient in creating the power. The amount of additional fuel you need to flow, on my car, exceeds the rate of my fuel delivery system. This is exactly correct. This is why "flex fuel" vehicles (vehicles designed and certified to run E85 from the factory) have, among other differences, larger fuel injectors than non-E85 certified vehicles. The exact reason is because of what you mentioned - the need to flow more fuel to make the same power. I think they also have more durable seals due to what you mentioned about ethanol breaking seals down faster than gasoline. Ultimately folks, the bottom line comes down to what the motor was designed to burn - be it no ethanol, 10% ethanol, E85, 87 octane, 93 octane... Some required characteristics of a system cannot be tuned by a fuel controller, they are physical build characteristics of the motor itself. It is important that you know that so that you don't go blowing your money on "snake oil" you only assume is making better power when in reality it's not. Life is good on 2 wheels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeisan Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 People freak out of ethanol for no reason. No, some of us have been working on bikes and cars for a long time and we have seen first hand how the new ethanol blended fuels have wreaked havoc on fuel systems. Another issue with ethanol is it's tendency to corrode softer metals like brass and aluminum. I have personally seen the after affects. Keep in mind the reason for 10% ethanol in today's most common fuels is to "cut" the gasoline down to make it cheaper. Any time I hear something like this, I have to ask myself who is benefiting? I'm certain it's not the consumer other than maybe in the pocket book (short term - probably not long term). Really, it's the oil companies lowering costs and raising margins and THAT my friends is why 10% ethanol blends even exist to begin with. Life is good on 2 wheels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member howworkclutch Posted September 27, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted September 27, 2014 No, some of us have been working on bikes and cars for a long time and we have seen first hand how the new ethanol blended fuels have wreaked havoc on fuel systems. Another issue with ethanol is it's tendency to corrode softer metals like brass and aluminum. I have personally seen the after affects. Keep in mind the reason for 10% ethanol in today's most common fuels is to "cut" the gasoline down to make it cheaper. Any time I hear something like this, I have to ask myself who is benefiting? I'm certain it's not the consumer other than maybe in the pocket book (short term - probably not long term). Really, it's the oil companies lowering costs and raising margins and THAT my friends is why 10% ethanol blends even exist to begin with. No. Just no. Use your head man. One if the arguments against ethanol is its expensive to produce. If that's true then the net result is mixing a high-cost product with a low-cost product. Your thought process doesn't make any sense. The fact (science. Real talk) is blending ethanol with gasoline reduces CO and CO2 emissions from an internal combustion engine. It's make for cleaner air. I understand that some people just don't like clean air. It doesn't mesh with thier political ideals. However, clean air is necessary. Even rats and snakes need it. If you're one of these beings who can magically live off filth that's great but the rest if us require clean air. Admittedly we are weak and vulnerable. Another thing I noted that's extremely odd is how some people expect more power from an engine while consuming less fuel. This is impossible. If you tune your engine for more power you will use more fuel. That's kinda the cornerstone if how engines work. If you need a simplistic refresher: try accelerating without opening the throttle. So one of today's projects is to find some aluminum, brass, and varying o-rings to soak in lab-grade ethanol for a few months. I'm kinda weird: I like to test things to prove right from wrong. When I was younger I depended on TV for facts but I found that the commentators ability to speak truthfully was inversely proportional to the income they derived from promoting an idea. And so: I've learned a lot of sciencey things over the years. So I'll get together a test procedure and keep you all posted on the negative effects of ethanol on common materials. If such effects actually exist. -HowWorkClutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MXRider Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I've already seen first hand and read many tests on the matter. It is most definitely a problem and if it weren't, there wouldn't be a market for ethanol free gas that is being sold to those with small engines. Look up Tru Fuel, 50 Fuel, VP Small Engine Fuel, etc. When we stopped using ethanol gas in our chainsaws at work we stopped having issues with carbs getting gummed up or damaged by the ethanol. We've had to replace carbs in the past because they are pitted badly and the saw wouldn't run anymore. All of our saws are run on VP SEF now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member howworkclutch Posted September 28, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted September 28, 2014 two-stroke engines are not four stroke engines. And by your logic, car stereo amp manufacturers exist because no one can hear a stock stereo. 10% ethanol is the boogie man. -HowWorkClutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeisan Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 It is a scientific fact that gasoline produces more energy than ethanol. It is also a scientific fact that unless an engine is tuned specifically to burn E10 or E85, pure gasoline will make more power in the engine than either of the ethanol blends. I never once argued ethanol was expensive to produce. What I stated, which is also a scientifically documented fact, is that ethanol is a net energy negative. It most certainly is cheaper than oil, but the fact remains it costs more energy to produce it that in nets in return. "Another thing I noted that's extremely odd is how some people expect more power from an engine while consuming less fuel. This is impossible." -- No, it is not impossible. It's the very definition of efficiency. If you want proof that it exists, compare a Ford Model A motor against a 2015 Corvette motor. Technology for the win. The fact is, most modern engines have to account for any range of pure 86 octane gasoline to E10 and in doing so will not run as efficiently on the E10 as they will on the pure gasoline (because the laws of physics say so - no backyard study required). I certainly do not need a lecture on scientific thinking either. I'm pretty sure I have a few pieces of paper stating I have that covered ha (well, in at least 37 states haha). All fact, no politics. Real life. EDIT: The US government stated this on the internet (so it MUST be true haha), but if you accept both as legitimate info here's some nice numbers for you: "The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than "pure" gasoline, although this varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol. Thus, vehicle fuel economy may decrease by up to 3.3% when using E10." Source: http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=27&t=4 Life is good on 2 wheels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MXRider Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 It's not worth arguing with him anymore. He doesn't listen to facts and personal experience. His mind is made up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeisan Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 It's not worth arguing with him anymore. He doesn't listen to facts and personal experience. His mind is made up. I'm with you and I agree. That was my final post on this topic. Any more is just beating a dead horse. Life is good on 2 wheels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sycthros Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I don't know why, but i feel like i can sense a difference in riding when i use 91 octane so i always put 91 octane, although that could very well be the placebo effect... I'm just a soul whose intentions are good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjohnson Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I use 91 or "mid grade" also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reckless Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I use 91 octane in all my bikes...oh and my supercharged 4runner too...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ralph Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Here in the UK the grades are slightly different we only generally have two and the dealer recommended the highest I could get as according to them the bike was right on the limit for the lower grade, I cant tell the slightest difference but am using the higher grade as the bike is so good on fuel it's only a few pence extra. This is about 98 Ron 102 Ron fuel is available but only really used for very high performance engines and I have never seen it on sale, a mate that races outfits uses aviation fuel. US 91 Mon is roughly the same as our 98 Ron though they cant be directly compared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Global Moderator mjh937 Posted January 17, 2015 Global Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2015 I would not use aviation fuel. They should not sell it to you for street use, but you can legally buy it for race use. The problem is even the 100 Low Lead (which is probably the only octane you will find) has a lot of lead in it. It is just lower lead than regular 100, which I have not seen in a couple of decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordiaboy515 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 When I fill up locally I use ethanol free 90 octane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthemarcus Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 For me, I get the 91 Octane because it comes with No Ethanol in it.. That's how it is at only 1 type of gas station around where I live.(Kwik Trip) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member yamahappy74 Posted June 20, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted June 20, 2015 I guess I've always used 91 since I got the bike. Maybe I'll try 87 on my next fill up. See if there is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vertigo Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 In the north American bikes designed for our 87 octane, would the bike not retard timing if you put 91 in, thus decreasing power like cars do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member norcal616 Posted June 27, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted June 27, 2015 Run 87 octane unless you tune the bike to run on higher grades...just buy gas from a reputable station... 2015 fz-07- Hordpower Edition...2015 fj-09- 120whp- Graves Exhaust w/Woolich Race Kit- tuned by 2WDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qldnat Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I use 98 octane available here in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07echelon Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Just checked the owners manual for the FZ07 manufactured for the United States, "regular unleaded gasoline." In the U.S. that means 87 octane. 2015 FZ07 Gallery: http://fz07.org/thread/4304/07echelons-gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan4130 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 The frame sticker (drivers side left, above/behind the radiator) states "MIN 91 RON" .... Does that mean 91 or premium fuel in USA? '15 FZ-09 Cadmium Yellow '15 White Fz-07 - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan4130 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Nvrm... Googled it and the RON rating is not the USA unit if measure. So the 91 RON = 87 AKI (USA measurement), so regular gas '15 FZ-09 Cadmium Yellow '15 White Fz-07 - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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