FZ-07 Fuel Octane R&D

[Beemer]

Wow! I didn't realize what I might be starting. I take it back.  :-S

[so1102]

Wow! I didn't realize what I might be starting. I take it back.  :-S

LOL how many times a day do you find yourself saying that?

[2wheeldynoworks]

just an fyi, i copy/pasted everything into a word editor so i could type everything out and see it better and well, the quotations part dropped so, my answers are after the ---
 
 
 
"Using 91+ octane was news to me when I got my bike dyno tuned, so thanks for helping me out with providing the higher octane fuel on the spot! This information will be helpful to all FZ-07 owners since I felt the general consensus was to use lower octane fuel in our bikes.
 
I initially received a flash for the Termignoni exhaust system a while back while I planned to get an Akrapovic Titanium exhaust system. A DNA air filter/air box and a stock exhaust sytem was my setup at the time. Would the pinging/detonation occur with my initial setup or would it have occurred after I installed the akrapovic Titanium w/o baffle along with it? Now that I am aware of the potential danger of running sub 91 octane fuel, how can I tell if any damage has developed?"
 
----General speaking, 87 octane hasn't shown to be a problem before, on the dyno, or from customer reviews, as the hundreds and hundreds of posts here can show, and the hundreds and hundreds of dyno passes I have done with FZ-07's. It's news to us as well. But one of the simplest solutions for addressing this is upping the octane of your fuel. On your bike, any damage would have shown up on the dyno. Reduced power, reduced mpg etc
 
 
07echelon Avatar
Mar 21, 2016 18:03:31 GMT -7 07echelon said:
Thanks for notifying us! This will definitely add to the decision of aftermarket exhausts, at least for me.
 
Question, when the software company said that only a handful were affected, does that mean they only received a handful of notices/complaints, or do they dyno test before and after flashing and only a handful of those were affected?
 
----So far this has only shown to be an issue on a handful of FZ-07's with the Akrapovic Ti system only. As far as I know, they just told me they had also heard of a handful of issues with pinging on the Akra Ti. As far as deciding between exhausts, this one is about the best, it just requires you run premium octane fuel. Well worth the extra $0.20 per gallon!
 
norcal616 Avatar
Mar 21, 2016 18:15:39 GMT -7 norcal616 said:
What about when gas companies use the " winter blend" or " summer blend" of gas for like the Michigan for example...
 
----That's a great question and i'm sure of the answer. However with the Akra Ti, run premium regardless is our recommendation. We haven't seen or heard of this issue with any other exhaust but just in case, we recommend premium octane for all.
 
rowdy Avatar
Mar 21, 2016 18:21:00 GMT -7 rowdy said:
So, is this only an issue with ECU flashed bikes, or should all FZ-07 owners with Akra Ti exhausts use 91? Is it Baffle in or out?
BTW, I've been thinking of getting an ECU flash, but haven't really decided on all of the changes I want on my bike, and want to be sure it's in the state I eventually get a flash for. I'm running Akra Ti with baffle.
 
----The stock mapping is so de-tuned I'd be surprised if it pinged on the stock mapping with the exhaust itself, once coupled with the flash, absolutely yes. Baffle in or out doesn't matter related to this issue. With the Akra Ti, we have a fantastic flash now dialed in perfectly available, baffle in or out. Snorkel out preferably.
 
st000 Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 1:30:46 GMT -7 st000 said:
Using 91+ octane was news to me when I got my bike dyno tuned, so thanks for helping me out with providing the higher octane fuel on the spot! This information will be helpful to all FZ-07 owners since I felt the general consensus was to use lower octane fuel in our bikes.
 
I initially received a flash for the Termignoni exhaust system a while back while I planned to get an Akrapovic Titanium exhaust system. A DNA air filter/air box and a stock exhaust sytem was my setup at the time. Would the pinging/detonation occur with my initial setup or would it have occurred after I installed the akrapovic Titanium w/o baffle along with it? Now that I am aware of the potential danger of running sub 91 octane fuel, how can I tell if any damage has developed?
 
----General speaking, 87 octane hasn't shown to be a problem before, on the dyno, or from customer reviews, as the hundreds and hundreds of posts here can show, and the hundreds and hundreds of dyno passes I have done with FZ-07's. It's news to us as well. But one of the simplest solutions for addressing this is upping the octane of your fuel.
 
bmwpowere36m3 Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 7:31:23 GMT -7 bmwpowere36m3 said:
Not to insult or question, but....
 
 
Typically its the tuner who dictates octane requirements, unless the customer specifically requests otherwise. A lot of tuners require higher octane fuel... because it can net higher HP increases. This makes the tune more "desirable" or "sellable" as the increases are tangible. However it comes at the expense of requiring premium fuel. My viewpoint is that most consumers are not racing... so IMHO drivability is more important than the last 1 HP.
 
 
That said, there are a lot of "generic" flashes/tunes out there for basic mods. Its the tuner's responsibility to keep those tunes somewhat conservative, as every vehicle is different and quality of fuel varies. Unless you have the customer come in for dyno and fine-tuning... the tune should only maybe be 90% of potential (made up #).
 
So follow the octane requirements of the tuner... and you should be fine. If your FZ-07 is not flashed, PCV or piggybacked... then the factory manual states 87 octane (US PON) is adequate (regardless of minor mods).
 
----Typically you're correct. Of all of the FZ-07's to this point though, octane hasn't been an issue. Now however, we've found approximately 6 in over 1,000 flashed FZ-07's where this has ever shown up. The HP isn't what we tune bikes for, the efficiency is, and then we tune it to the safe side of the air fuel ratio just a little bit.
 
To clarify, pump gas is not race gas. None of this is racing or about HP numbers. I appreciate your opinions. However in this application, de-tuning it to the safe levels reduces power to stock levels, negating the purpose and any performance gains whatsoever. Or, you run 91+ octane and you get one of the best performing exhausts on the market. This performance upgrade on the bike comes with needing 91+ octane. No other exhaust has had this issue and people may be perfectly fine running 87 from now til it dies in 30 years however, to avoid the few random occurrences of this, we recommend everyone run 91+
 
so1102 Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 7:41:33 GMT -7 so1102 said:
Let's all remember that this thread was a post from the vendor (a tuner) in his section of the forum, directed specifically at a small subset of people (people who have had their ECU already flashed by him and also run the Akra Ti exhaust and who may be running 87 octane fuel).
 
----Everyone is free to voice their opinions, right or wrong, that's why we're here, to help.
 
 
bmwpowere36m3 Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 7:56:38 GMT -7 
It was in my recent threads lists, didn't see the sub-forum... carry on.
 
----it's all good
 
st000 Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 12:43:02 GMT -7 st000 said:
Originally the vendor stated that 87 or 93 octane will run fine on their tunes, but like so1102 stated, the issue of pinging when using factory recommended fuel octane has occurred in only a small portion of the fz-07s that have been flashed.
 
----Correct. We hadn't seen an issue with 87 on any flashed FZ-07, exhaust stock or not, until the Akro Ti's were being flashed. Now that we know, we state 91 octane minimum
 
delbee1 Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 12:45:08 GMT -7 delbee1 said:
I had been running my bike on Shell V-Power which I believe is 99 Ron as I have always used this in my cars. I spoke to a tuner who advised that I wouldnt really need to be running that unless I raised the compression so the last few times I have filled up with the standard 95 Ron
 
----Depending on what modifications are in your bike, you could be 100% fine forever running that.
 
Mar 22, 2016 17:36:53 GMT -7 username said:
delbee1 Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 12:45:08 GMT -7 delbee1 said:
I had been running my bike on Shell V-Power which I believe is 99 Ron as I have always used this in my cars. I spoke to a tuner who advised that I wouldnt really need to be running that unless I raised the compression so the last few times I have filled up with the standard 95 Ron
 
They have 99 octane? Dang I've seen 95 but 99 seems like something they might put in an F1 car. I thought Shell V power was 93 octane. Husky has 95 as their highest.
 
----99 would be pretty awesome! but we're talking different units unfortunately.
 
sorkyah Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 21:18:11 GMT -7 sorkyah said:
 
 
username Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 17:36:53 GMT -7 username said:
They have 99 octane? Dang I've seen 95 but 99 seems like something they might put in an F1 car. I thought Shell V power was 93 octane. Husky has 95 as their highest.
RON or Research Octane Number is used in most countries to advertise fuel grade
The 91-93 average seen in the US and Canada is known as the AKI or anti-knock index
(Research octane number + Motor octane number)/2 =AKI
Shell V-power is 99 Ron in most countries and on average 91 Aki in the US unless other grades are available
 
----Thanks for helping clarify that for everyone!
 
noltz Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 22:41:51 GMT -7 noltz said:
I have an EJK on my bike running two brothers, would it be wise to go with the higher octane?
 
----Not necessary but not unwise either. So far this has only been an issue with FZ-07's with flashed ecu's and Akrapovic Ti exhausts.
 
delbee1 Avatar
Mar 23, 2016 0:29:22 GMT -7 delbee1 said:
username Avatar
Mar 22, 2016 17:36:53 GMT -7 username said:
They have 99 octane? Dang I've seen 95 but 99 seems like something they might put in an F1 car. I thought Shell V power was 93 octane. Husky has 95 as their highest.
I'm in the UK. The basic grade here is 95, some are 97 and a couple are 99
 
----So, I guess i should clarify, 91+ octane in North America and it's equivalent elsewhere
 
Beemer Avatar
Mar 23, 2016 10:08:53 GMT -7 Beemer said:
delbee1 Avatar
Mar 23, 2016 0:29:22 GMT -7 delbee1 said:
I'm in the UK. The basic grade here is 95, some are 97 and a couple are 99
The U.S. manual says to run 87 but you guys in the U.K. don't have 87, correct? What does your manual say to run, 95? If the MT and FZ are the same and your MT manual says to run 95 octane then 93 shouldn't hurt an FZ without and ECU flash. Am I looking at this wrong? What's going on here?
 
----pineapple has the answer for ya
 
pineappleunderthesea Avatar
Mar 23, 2016 10:40:10 GMT -7 pineappleunderthesea said:
Beemer Avatar
Mar 23, 2016 10:08:53 GMT -7 Beemer said:
The U.S. manual says to run 87 but you guys in the U.K. don't have 87, correct? What does your manual say to run, 95? If the MT and FZ are the same and your MT manual says to run 95 octane then 93 shouldn't hurt an FZ without and ECU flash. Am I looking at this wrong? What's going on here?
They calculate octane differently in Europe. So their 95 octane is basically our 87 octane.
 
----Yup!
 
bmwpowere36m3 Avatar
Mar 23, 2016 12:01:26 GMT -7 bmwpowere36m3 said:
Majority of the world uses RON for octane ratings, here in the US/Canada we use "R+M/2" or AKI or PON and it roughly translates like:
 
87 AKI = 90 RON
89 AKI = 92 RON
91 AKI = 95 RON
93 AKI = 97 RON
 
The US manual calls for minimum 87 AKI (R+M/2 or PON).
 
----Thanks for the handy conversion chart!
 
elbee1 Avatar
Mar 23, 2016 12:19:36 GMT -7 delbee1 said:
Yeah RON and AKI are completely different.
 
I just checked my owners manual and it says "Your Yamaha engine has beed designed to use regular unleaded gasoline with a research octane number of 95 or higher. If knocking or pinging occurs, use a gasoline of a different brand or premium unleaded fuel".
 
That would mean that you guys should run 91AKI or higher
 
----And as the manual says, use premium if knocking occurs We just haven't seen or heard of that until the flashed Akra Ti's. The flash we developed for the Akra Ti is on premium as well so that's what we recommend from here on out.
 
pineappleunderthesea Avatar
That would mean that you guys should run 91AKI or higher
The FZ-07 owners manual (US version) recommends 87 octane. Hence my comment earlier that we can use 87, you can use 95.
 
----Interesting that the UK and US manuals are different.
 
delbee1 Avatar
Mar 23, 2016 13:19:05 GMT -7 delbee1 said:
pineappleunderthesea Avatar
Mar 23, 2016 12:47:22 GMT -7 pineappleunderthesea said:
The FZ-07 owners manual (US version) recommends 87 octane. Hence my comment earlier that we can use 87, you can use 95.
Yeah sorry I under stand you guys octane measurement is in AKI and not RON, I thought you guys were in RON too and was just pointing out RON is RON, my bad lol
 
I still wouldnt use your 87 though as it's your 91 which is the same as our 95 RON so somewhere Yamaha have cocked up with the manual, see below. Thats possible why 2wheeldynoworks as had knock on a couple of bike, I guess depending on which brand they are using.
 
"United States: in the US octane rating is displayed in AKI. In most areas, the standard grades are 87, 89-90 and 91-94 AKI. In the Rocky Mountain (high elevation) states, 85 AKI (90 RON) is the minimum octane, and 91 AKI (95 RON) is the maximum octane available in fuel. The reason for this is that in higher-elevation areas, a typical naturally aspirated engine draws in less air mass per cycle because of the reduced density of the atmosphere. This directly translates to less fuel and reduced absolute compression in the cylinder, therefore deterring knock. It is safe to fill a carbureted car that normally takes 87 AKI fuel at sea level with 85 AKI fuel in the mountains, but at sea level the fuel may cause damage to the engine. However, since virtually all cars produced since the mid-1980s have fuel injection, 85 AKI fuel is not recommended for modern automobiles and may cause damage to the engine and decreased performance. Another disadvantage to this strategy is that most turbocharged vehicles are unable to produce full power, even when using the "premium" 91 AKI fuel. In some east coast states, up to 94 AKI (98 RON) is available."
 
 
----International forum problems
 
Beemer Avatar
Mar 24, 2016 7:14:46 GMT -7 Beemer said:
Wow! I didn't realize what I might be starting. I take it back. :-S
 
----Never

[rowdy]

Thanks @2wheeldynoworks for the compendium of posts and responses. I've got a friend who is tuning his Subaru STI turbo to the point where it now requires 104 octane (AKI). My Honda Civic Si requires 91. It does not seem unreasonable for an ECU tune with or without aftermarket parts to require an increased octane fuel. That's the price of performance. I guess the problem would be for customers that thought they could get away with 87. Well, (in my sarcastic cynical voice), the freakin' tank only holds 3 something gallons, and the bike gets 50+ mpg. You spent good money on an ECU flash, so spring for the pocket change that it will cost you each year for 91 gas.
 

[pineappleunderthesea]

Thanks @2wheeldynoworks for the compendium of posts and responses. I've got a friend who is tuning his Subaru STI turbo to the point where it now requires 104 octane (AKI). My Honda Civic Si requires 91. It does not seem unreasonable for an ECU tune with or without aftermarket parts to require an increased octane fuel. That's the price of performance. I guess the problem would be for customers that thought they could get away with 87. Well, (in my sarcastic cynical voice), the freakin' tank only holds 3 something gallons, and the bike gets 50+ mpg. You spent good money on an ECU flash, so spring for the pocket change that it will cost you each year for 91 gas.

My Audi S4 had a tune made for 93 and for 100 octane (couple of gas stations near me when I lived in Charlotte had 100).  So to your point, the tune could be made for a certain octane in mind, and higher octane gave more power.  Which is why I was somewhat surprised that the FZ-07 tune was made for 87:  wouldn't you get more HP from 91 or 93 if you tuned for higher octane?  Does tuning for 87 leave some HP on the table?  Or is it that it doesn't make a difference for the FZ....

[rowdy]

My Audi S4 had a tune made for 93 and for 100 octane (couple of gas stations near me when I lived in Charlotte had 100).  So to your point, the tune could be made for a certain octane in mind, and higher octane gave more power.  Which is why I was somewhat surprised that the FZ-07 tune was made for 87:  wouldn't you get more HP from 91 or 93 if you tuned for higher octane?  Does tuning for 87 leave some HP on the table?  Or is it that it doesn't make a difference for the FZ.... 
 

Octane <> Power.  Higher octane actually ignites slower than lower octane and is used to prevent "pre-combustion" in higher compression engines.  Mods can affect how much air is getting into the cylinder and a tune can affect when the ignition happens which can require higher octane. A good tune requires the tuner to know the mods, and then the ECU can usually be adjusted for the octane "within the limits of the modifications".
 

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

I had been running my bike on Shell V-Power which I believe is 99 Ron as I have always used this in my cars. I spoke to a tuner who advised that I wouldnt really need to be running that unless I raised the compression so the last few times I have filled up with the standard 95 Ron

They have 99 octane? Dang I've seen 95 but 99 seems like something they might put in an F1 car. I thought Shell V power was 93 octane. Husky has 95 as their highest.

I know this is old, but I have a couple stations around me that sell 110 octane, lol. 

[xtrapsi]

Although this has shown that premium fuel runs best with this setup, I don't think it is safe to assume that 'more is better' so I'm not sure 110 is the best option.
Whatever the bike is tuned for is optimal.

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

My Cobra had maps for 110 and alcohol. Not saying I run it in this bike, haha. This bike would probably have trouble igniting it.

[2wheeldynoworks]

They sell 110 in public gas stations in Chicago?! That's crazy! 91-95 will be your safest bet though

[fzguider]

How would the bike run without a flash running 116 octane race gas ?
 

[fzguider]

I only ask because there's a gas station nearby that sells it and I love the smell of race gas!

[2wheeldynoworks]

without tuning and engine upgrades, you won't be getting much benefit from it

[fzguider]

I figured as much
Really I suppose what I was asking is ...without a flash would it do any harm or cause it to actually run poorly with 116 octane race gas.
I know when you run 116 in a normal street car it's not their favorite thing in the world unless it's tuned for it.

[hordboy]

Ya'll need to get out of your head that more octane is somehow better. There are a lot of fancy superbike engines out there with 14:1+ compression that run just fine on motor octane ratings of around 87. Older, inefficient combustion chamber designs might need some octane to stay happy, but generally not the newer stuff.

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

They sell 110 in public gas stations in Chicago?! That's crazy! 91-95 will be your safest bet though

They sure do, I have a few stations around that sell 100 and one that sells 110. It's $11.99 a gallon though.  

[pineappleunderthesea]

Ya'll need to get out of your head that more octane is somehow better. There are a lot of fancy superbike engines out there with 14:1+ compression that run just fine on motor octane ratings of around 87. Older, inefficient combustion chamber designs might need some octane to stay happy, but generally not the newer stuff.

I think people might confuse higher octane with top tier gas, which contains more cleaning detergents and has to go through a certification process (BP, Shell, Exxon, etc are certified, for example).  Whether or not it makes a huge difference in keeping your engine clean I don't know, but seems to me it might be worth it if you intend to run up a lot of miles on a car or bike.
 
As for the 2WDW flash:  I'm still unclear if the flash was intended to run on 87 or 91/93.  If the flash was created to take advantage of 93 octane by playing around with timing, then running a lower octane would create an unwanted pre-ignition and thus pinging.  

[wickedtwister]

People as a whole think the more expensive something is the better it is. Because 110 octane costs more than 93 it has to be better right? Wrong unless the engine is built to fully utilize the high octane fuel you are better off burning your money.
 
As stated in the original post if you have the akra ti exhaust and the 2WDW flash run 91/93 octane. If you have their flash and any other exhaust you are fine running 87. But if you want to buy the more expensive 91/93 go ahead it will not hurt anything. If you have a stock engine and want to run 110 you really are better off pouring it on the ground and lighting it on fire.

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

People as a whole think the more expensive something is the better it is. Because 110 octane costs more than 93 it has to be better right? Wrong unless the engine is built to fully utilize the high octane fuel you are better off burning your money.  
As stated in the original post if you have the akra ti exhaust and the 2WDW flash run 91/93 octane. If you have their flash and any other exhaust you are fine running 87. But if you want to buy the more expensive 91/93 go ahead it will not hurt anything. If you have a stock engine and want to run 110 you really are better off pouring it on the ground and lighting it on fire.

You are definitely not fine running 87 if you have their flash as they recommend running 91 or 93 even with the stock exhaust, 93 isn't necessary unless you're pinging - but 91 is. You don't make more hp/tq without messing with timing, which requires higher octane gas unless you want detonation. 

[wickedtwister]

They said in their first post that they have only had pinging with the Akra ti pipe. If your bike pings with any exhaust put higher octane in it. Done. End of discussion. I bet they go on to say to put 91+ in with their flash on any bike because a majority of people 1) don't know what pinging is or 2) don't know how bad it can be for your engine. Is it safer to run 91+ in every engine? Yes. Is it 100% necessary? No.
 
I have the akra ti pipe and have always put 93 in it because I can get it ethanol free where I live, but that's a different discussion for a different day. I have been forced to run 87 in my bike because that's all the gas station had and I was 80 miles from the next station and I did not notice any pinging. So again is 91+ recommended? Yes is it 100% absolutely necessary? No. By the way I was a Ford certified master technician for years so I do know what pinging sounds like.
 
 
 

[pineappleunderthesea]

I have the Akra Carbon and since 2WDW's announcement on the Ti, I've put in 87, then 89, then 93. Haven't noticed a difference in sound in terms of pinging, or power increase with the butt dyno. Not sure what pinging sounds on a bike, though, the only time I've heard it was in my old Geo Metro, timing belt has slippeda bit and I would hear this clicking sound when getting off the gas. It would go away if I put 89 octane instead of 87. I assume that's the sound I should hear on the bike if it pinged...?
 
The only thing I notice on highway driving is a slight non-linear response when I'm cruising and want to accelerate, it almost feels like turbo lag before power kicks in. Seems to do it with any octaine, I don't recall the bike behaving that way before the flash, but maybe it's the nature of the flash since giving it just a little more gas really kicks in the power!
 
 

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

They said in their first post that they have only had pinging with the Akra ti pipe. If your bike pings with any exhaust put higher octane in it. Done. End of discussion. I bet they go on to say to put 91+ in with their flash on any bike because a majority of people 1) don't know what pinging is or 2) don't know how bad it can be for your engine. Is it safer to run 91+ in every engine? Yes. Is it 100% necessary? No.  
I have the akra ti pipe and have always put 93 in it because I can get it ethanol free where I live, but that's a different discussion for a different day. I have been forced to run 87 in my bike because that's all the gas station had and I was 80 miles from the next station and I did not notice any pinging. So again is 91+ recommended? Yes is it 100% absolutely necessary? No. By the way I was a Ford certified master technician for years so I do know what pinging sounds like.
 
 

I wish I still had the private message they sent me that said once the bike was flashed they recommend running 91 octane. You can run just about any combustion engine on 87 as long as you're not beating on it with no issues, starting getting into the higher rpms and that's where you're going to run into issues and start blowing holes in pistons.  
Like I said in a previous post, I had an 04 Terminator (something I'm sure you're familiar with if you were a Ford mechanic) with nearly 800rwhp with spray running 87 to get to and from the track. Switched over to alcohol at the track because no way I want to waste all that money driving 100+ miles to and from the track on alcohol. Could I race on 87? Only if I wanted to completely waste the motor I built - but for normal driving it would happily run 87 all day long if I didn't hit boost at all. 
 
Once I get my ECU flashed I'll be running 91 octane just for the peace of mind and the extra octane ceiling for when it's really warm out or I get a batch of sub-par gas. Obviously I'd run non-ethanol if that were an option no matter the octane. But in Illinois, that's not really an option. When I was in Florida last week, almost every single station around had 90 octane non-ethanol. I couldn't believe it. 

[bmwpowere36m3]

They recommended it for the Akra Ti... not sure if it applies to ALL their tunes. They simply implied you'd be "safer" running 91/93 octane...