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2wheeldynoworks

FZ-07 Fuel Octane R&D

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2wheeldynoworks
 
We've done some new R&D with fueling recently and here's what we've found.
 
With the FZ-07 and even more specifically, with the Akropovic Ti exhaust, we recommend only running premium 91+ octane fuel.
 
Here's why:
 
We've had 1 bike complaint for pinging/detonation. However this was on a test tune file and we knew it would need some tweaking, as did the customer. This past weekend we had another bike with an Akropovic Ti, customer showed up with fresh cheap 87 fuel and show up pinging.He was not aware of the issue but we picked it up on the dyno right away. Well this is strange. So we played with the fueling, the ignition timing etc, nothing fixes it unless we detune over 10% of the hp causing it to run poorly and be down on power. So, we siphon all the fuel out, throw in fresh 92 and bam, not only is the pinging completely gone, picks up a few HP and FT LBs right off the bat, runs beautifully.
 
We haven't had this issue with any bike we've had on the dyno until this point but we've found that absolutely the fuel can make a dangerous difference on some bikes. We're not sure why or what variable it is that causes it, as between us and the software company, we've flashed thousands of FZ-07's without issue. However, to avoid this potential issue with any other customers past present or future, we're releasing this information to you because we want to be transparent and not have you potentially damage your bike!
 
We called the software company we use for the FZ-07's and asked them about this and have found that out of the thousands of FZ-07's that have been flashed, there are a handful with these bikes with this issue.
 
We haven't had an issue with tuning on different octanes generally but since we've found a few of these issues show up for this bike, we specifically recommend all FZ-07's run 91+ octane with it at all times including an ecu flash and especially with the Akrapovic Ti Exhaust system (which we now have a perfect map for). Its very possible that your bike will run perfectly on 87 octane but to eliminate variables and add insurance, we recommend spending $0.20 a gallon more on better fuel.
 
We are all working together in this community to have the best running bikes as possible. So, if you're having an issue with this, give some premium a try and contact us right away if your bike isn't running right. We will do our best to make sure your bike runs its best.
 
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pineappleunderthesea
I'm on the East coast, where we have 93 instead of 91. I assume 93 would be fine?
Did you also try 89 octane?
I have the tune with the Akra Carbon, will give higher octane a try.
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2wheeldynoworks
The lower octanes are apparently the issue, with our testing we've determined 91 and up pump gas is what we recommend. 93 should be fine.
 
Again, this has only been an issue in a handful of bikes across the country and your bike may run perfectly fine on 87/89, we don't really know what variable it is that caused the issue, we just know that upping the octane fixes it in the few examples that we and flashtune have found.

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07echelon
Thanks for notifying us! This will definitely add to the decision of aftermarket exhausts, at least for me.
 
Question, when the software company said that only a handful were affected, does that mean they only received a handful of notices/complaints, or do they dyno test before and after flashing and only a handful of those were affected?

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norcal616
What about when gas companies use the " winter blend" or " summer blend" of gas for like the Michigan for example...

2015 fz-07- Hordpower Edition...2015 fj-09- 120whp- Graves Exhaust w/Woolich Race Kit- tuned by 2WDW
 

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rowdy
So, is this only an issue with ECU flashed bikes, or should all FZ-07 owners with Akra Ti exhausts use 91? Is it Baffle in or out?
BTW, I've been thinking of getting an ECU flash, but haven't really decided on all of the changes I want on my bike, and want to be sure it's in the state I eventually get a flash for. I'm running Akra Ti with baffle.
 

Why can't left turners see us?

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st000
Using 91+ octane was news to me when I got my bike dyno tuned, so thanks for helping me out with providing the higher octane fuel on the spot! This information will be helpful to all FZ-07 owners since I felt the general consensus was to use lower octane fuel in our bikes. 
 
I initially received a flash for the Termignoni exhaust system a while back while I planned to get an Akrapovic Titanium exhaust system. A DNA air filter/air box and a stock exhaust sytem was my setup at the time. Would the pinging/detonation occur with my initial setup or would it have occurred after I installed the akrapovic Titanium w/o baffle along with it? Now that I am aware of the potential danger of running sub 91 octane fuel, how can I tell if any damage has developed?

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bmwpowere36m3
Not to insult or question, but....
 
 
Typically its the tuner who dictates octane requirements, unless the customer specifically requests otherwise. A lot of tuners require higher octane fuel... because it can net higher HP increases. This makes the tune more "desirable" or "sellable" as the increases are tangible. However it comes at the expense of requiring premium fuel. My viewpoint is that most consumers are not racing... so IMHO drivability is more important than the last 1 HP.
 
 
That said, there are a lot of "generic" flashes/tunes out there for basic mods. Its the tuner's responsibility to keep those tunes somewhat conservative, as every vehicle is different and quality of fuel varies. Unless you have the customer come in for dyno and fine-tuning... the tune should only maybe be 90% of potential (made up #).
 
So follow the octane requirements of the tuner... and you should be fine. If your FZ-07 is not flashed, PCV or piggybacked... then the factory manual states 87 octane (US PON) is adequate (regardless of minor mods).

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so1102
Not to insult or question, but.... 
 
Typically its the tuner who dictates octane requirements, unless the customer specifically requests otherwise. A lot of tuners require higher octane fuel... because it can net higher HP increases. This makes the tune more "desirable" or "sellable" as the increases are tangible. However it comes at the expense of requiring premium fuel. My viewpoint is that most consumers are not racing... so IMHO drivability is more important than the last 1 HP.
 
 
That said, there are a lot of "generic" flashes/tunes out there for basic mods. Its the tuner's responsibility to keep those tunes somewhat conservative, as every vehicle is different and quality of fuel varies. Unless you have the customer come in for dyno and fine-tuning... the tune should only maybe be 90% of potential (made up #).
 
So follow the octane requirements of the tuner... and you should be fine. If your FZ-07 is not flashed, PCV or piggybacked... then the factory manual states 87 octane (US PON) is adequate (regardless of minor mods).
Let's all remember that this thread was a post from the vendor (a tuner) in his section of the forum, directed specifically at a small subset of people (people who have had their ECU already flashed by him and also run the Akra Ti exhaust and who may be running 87 octane fuel).
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bmwpowere36m3
Not to insult or question, but.... 
 
Typically its the tuner who dictates octane requirements, unless the customer specifically requests otherwise. A lot of tuners require higher octane fuel... because it can net higher HP increases. This makes the tune more "desirable" or "sellable" as the increases are tangible. However it comes at the expense of requiring premium fuel. My viewpoint is that most consumers are not racing... so IMHO drivability is more important than the last 1 HP.
 
 
That said, there are a lot of "generic" flashes/tunes out there for basic mods. Its the tuner's responsibility to keep those tunes somewhat conservative, as every vehicle is different and quality of fuel varies. Unless you have the customer come in for dyno and fine-tuning... the tune should only maybe be 90% of potential (made up #).
 
So follow the octane requirements of the tuner... and you should be fine. If your FZ-07 is not flashed, PCV or piggybacked... then the factory manual states 87 octane (US PON) is adequate (regardless of minor mods).
Let's all remember that this thread was a post from the vendor (a tuner) in his section of the forum, directed specifically at a small subset of people (people who have had their ECU already flashed by him and also run the Akra Ti exhaust and who may be running 87 octane fuel).
 
 
+1
 
It was in my recent threads lists, didn't see the sub-forum... carry on.
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st000
Not to insult or question, but.... 
 
Typically its the tuner who dictates octane requirements, unless the customer specifically requests otherwise. A lot of tuners require higher octane fuel... because it can net higher HP increases. This makes the tune more "desirable" or "sellable" as the increases are tangible. However it comes at the expense of requiring premium fuel. My viewpoint is that most consumers are not racing... so IMHO drivability is more important than the last 1 HP.
 
 
That said, there are a lot of "generic" flashes/tunes out there for basic mods. Its the tuner's responsibility to keep those tunes somewhat conservative, as every vehicle is different and quality of fuel varies. Unless you have the customer come in for dyno and fine-tuning... the tune should only maybe be 90% of potential (made up #).
 
So follow the octane requirements of the tuner... and you should be fine. If your FZ-07 is not flashed, PCV or piggybacked... then the factory manual states 87 octane (US PON) is adequate (regardless of minor mods).
Originally the vendor stated that 87 or 93 octane will run fine on their tunes, but like so1102 stated, the issue of pinging when using factory recommended fuel octane  has occurred in only a small portion of the fz-07s that have been flashed. 

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delbee1
I had been running my bike on Shell V-Power which I believe is 99 Ron as I have always used this in my cars. I spoke to a tuner who advised that I wouldnt really need to be running that unless I raised the compression so the last few times I have filled up with the standard 95 Ron

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username
I had been running my bike on Shell V-Power which I believe is 99 Ron as I have always used this in my cars. I spoke to a tuner who advised that I wouldnt really need to be running that unless I raised the compression so the last few times I have filled up with the standard 95 Ron
 
 
They have 99 octane? Dang I've seen 95 but 99 seems like something they might put in an F1 car. I thought Shell V power was 93 octane. Husky has 95 as their highest.

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sorkyah
 
 

I had been running my bike on Shell V-Power which I believe is 99 Ron as I have always used this in my cars. I spoke to a tuner who advised that I wouldnt really need to be running that unless I raised the compression so the last few times I have filled up with the standard 95 Ron
They have 99 octane? Dang I've seen 95 but 99 seems like something they might put in an F1 car. I thought Shell V power was 93 octane. Husky has 95 as their highest.
 
RON or Research Octane Number is used in most countries to advertise fuel grade
The 91-93 average seen in the US and Canada is known as the AKI or anti-knock index
(Research octane number + Motor octane number)/2 =AKI
Shell V-power is 99 Ron in most countries and on average 91 Aki in the US unless other grades are available

ATGATT... ATTATT, two acronyms I live by.
 

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noltz
I have an EJK on my bike running two brothers, would it be wise to go with the higher octane?

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delbee1
I had been running my bike on Shell V-Power which I believe is 99 Ron as I have always used this in my cars. I spoke to a tuner who advised that I wouldnt really need to be running that unless I raised the compression so the last few times I have filled up with the standard 95 Ron
They have 99 octane? Dang I've seen 95 but 99 seems like something they might put in an F1 car. I thought Shell V power was 93 octane. Husky has 95 as their highest.
I'm in the UK. The basic grade here is 95, some are 97 and a couple are 99 :) 
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Beemer
They have 99 octane? Dang I've seen 95 but 99 seems like something they might put in an F1 car. I thought Shell V power was 93 octane. Husky has 95 as their highest.
I'm in the UK. The basic grade here is 95, some are 97 and a couple are 99 :)
The U.S. manual says to run 87 but you guys in the U.K. don't have 87, correct? What does your manual say to run, 95? If the MT and FZ are the same and your MT manual says to run 95 octane then 93 shouldn't hurt an FZ without and ECU flash. Am I looking at this wrong? What's going on here?

Beemer

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pineappleunderthesea
I'm in the UK. The basic grade here is 95, some are 97 and a couple are 99 :)
The U.S. manual says to run 87 but you guys in the U.K. don't have 87, correct? What does your manual say to run, 95? If the MT and FZ are the same and your MT manual says to run 95 octane then 93 shouldn't hurt an FZ without and ECU flash. Am I looking at this wrong? What's going on here?
They calculate octane differently in Europe.  So their 95 octane is basically our 87 octane.

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Beemer
The U.S. manual says to run 87 but you guys in the U.K. don't have 87, correct? What does your manual say to run, 95? If the MT and FZ are the same and your MT manual says to run 95 octane then 93 shouldn't hurt an FZ without and ECU flash. Am I looking at this wrong? What's going on here?
They calculate octane differently in Europe.  So their 95 octane is basically our 87 octane.
lol! That figures! I should've known that by now but I'm only up on Monty Python calculations, words like chickie and a little metric. 
[video src=https://youtu.be/y2R3FvS4xr4]
 
 
 

Beemer

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delbee1
The U.S. manual says to run 87 but you guys in the U.K. don't have 87, correct? What does your manual say to run, 95? If the MT and FZ are the same and your MT manual says to run 95 octane then 93 shouldn't hurt an FZ without and ECU flash. Am I looking at this wrong? What's going on here?
They calculate octane differently in Europe.  So their 95 octane is basically our 87 octane.
I dont think so. "The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel in a test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing the results with those for mixtures of iso-octane and n-heptane"
The RON of a fuel is calculated the same worldwide, our 95 is certainly not your 87
 

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i28
The RON of a fuel is calculated the same worldwide, our 95 is certainly not your 87
the US uses the AKI system which is the average of the RON and the MON
 
that's why we see the formula (R+M)/2 at the gas pumps

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bmwpowere36m3
Majority of the world uses RON for octane ratings, here in the US/Canada we use "R+M/2" or AKI or PON and it roughly translates like:
 
87 AKI = 90 RON
89 AKI = 92 RON
91 AKI = 95 RON
93 AKI = 97 RON
 
The US manual calls for minimum 87 AKI (R+M/2 or PON).

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delbee1
Yeah RON and AKI are completely different.
I just checked my owners manual and it says "Your Yamaha engine has beed designed to use regular unleaded gasoline with a research octane number of 95 or higher. If knocking or pinging occurs, use a gasoline of a different brand or premium unleaded fuel".
That would mean that you guys should run 91AKI or higher 

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pineappleunderthesea
Yeah RON and AKI are completely different. I just checked my owners manual and it says "Your Yamaha engine has beed designed to use regular unleaded gasoline with a research octane number of 95 or higher. If knocking or pinging occurs, use a gasoline of a different brand or premium unleaded fuel".
That would mean that you guys should run 91AKI or higher 
The FZ-07 owners manual (US version) recommends 87 octane.  Hence my comment earlier that we can use 87, you can use 95.  

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delbee1
Yeah RON and AKI are completely different. I just checked my owners manual and it says "Your Yamaha engine has beed designed to use regular unleaded gasoline with a research octane number of 95 or higher. If knocking or pinging occurs, use a gasoline of a different brand or premium unleaded fuel".
That would mean that you guys should run 91AKI or higher 
The FZ-07 owners manual (US version) recommends 87 octane.  Hence my comment earlier that we can use 87, you can use 95.  
Yeah sorry I under stand you guys octane measurement is in AKI and not RON, I thought you guys were in RON too and was just pointing out RON is RON, my bad lol I still wouldnt use your 87 though as it's your 91 which is the same as our 95 RON so somewhere Yamaha have cocked up with the manual, see below. Thats possible why 2wheeldynoworks as had knock on a couple of bike, I guess depending on which brand they are using.
"United States: in the US octane rating is displayed in AKI. In most areas, the standard grades are 87, 89-90 and 91-94 AKI. In the Rocky Mountain (high elevation) states, 85 AKI (90 RON) is the minimum octane, and 91 AKI (95 RON) is the maximum octane available in fuel. The reason for this is that in higher-elevation areas, a typical naturally aspirated engine draws in less air mass per cycle because of the reduced density of the atmosphere. This directly translates to less fuel and reduced absolute compression in the cylinder, therefore deterring knock. It is safe to fill a carbureted car that normally takes 87 AKI fuel at sea level with 85 AKI fuel in the mountains, but at sea level the fuel may cause damage to the engine. However, since virtually all cars produced since the mid-1980s have fuel injection, 85 AKI fuel is not recommended for modern automobiles and may cause damage to the engine and decreased performance. Another disadvantage to this strategy is that most turbocharged vehicles are unable to produce full power, even when using the "premium" 91 AKI fuel. In some east coast states, up to 94 AKI (98 RON) is available."
 
 

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