FZ-07SS - Racebike Build

[wickedtwister]

Yeah CMP is a very abrasive surface lots of grip to be had. They have some long sweeping turns where you can really generate some high corner speed. Turns 4-7 are lots of fun. In my camaro I was hitting about 110 up to the kink (10) then hard on the brakes to the hard left hand into turn 11. It's an absolute blast.

[pattonme]

The shock uses a 2" spring I take it? Ohlins has a pile of those mostly for their R&T lineup. But most other shocks use 2.25" and sometimes 2.5". It's pretty trivial to make a suitable adapter.

[gogokawi]

Yeah CMP is a very abrasive surface lots of grip to be had. They have some long sweeping turns where you can really generate some high corner speed. Turns 4-7 are lots of fun. In my camaro I was hitting about 110 up to the kink (10) then hard on the brakes to the hard left hand into turn 11. It's an absolute blast.

The grip is great, at the expense of tires.  I went through one rear, and made good work of the second one.  I couldn't ride on that track consistently, just because of the high tire bill.  But it is a hoot!
 

The shock uses a 2" spring I take it? Ohlins has a pile of those mostly for their R&T lineup. But most other shocks use 2.25" and sometimes 2.5". It's pretty trivial to make a suitable adapter.

Is there a reason why one would go with a 2 vs. 2.25 vs. 2.5 diameter shock?  I assume the larger shock would be for the bigger bike.  But if the spring rate is the same between the different diameters, why choose one over the other?

[pattonme]

at full rise some of the linkages are oriented in such a manner as to cause the spring to contact it. For whatever reason JRI is in love with 2" springs.

[gogokawi]

Now that I've had some time to collect my thoughts, I can give a bit more feedback on the bike.
 
I remember listening to motorcycle reviews and thinking that most of the reviewers were full of it.  They would always say something like, "The bike pulls hard all the way through the rev range."  Or "There's a lot of grunt down low."  With this bike, both of those cliches are true.  It pulls really hard from idle to redline.  Being in a higher gear is ok because it will still have grunt.  And there's no abrupt power surge.  It pulls the same regardless of where you are in the RPMs.
 
My launches have been great on this bike.  Keep it around 8 grand and let the clutch go, quickly but not abruptly.  The bike will catch and pull really hard.
 
I'm still trying to get used to the braking for a couple of reasons.  The brakes don't really grab like I'm used to.  I'm accustomed to my brakes stopping me abruptly or slowing me down aggressively.  The EBC EPFA feel really progressive.  No initial bite.  You have to pull really hard to get that, which is making change my riding style a bit.  The other reason braking has been tough has nothing to do with the brakes.  It's the clutch that's making things challenging.
 
The FZ hates down shifts at speed or high in the RPMs.  I've found that downshifting above 10k will lead to the back tire dancing around while the rear end bounces from the tire skipping on the ground.  It is taking some time to get used to the shifting and the timing.  I really want a slipper clutch.  But I can't justify investing any more money in the bike at this point.  Maybe next year.
 
I'm going to end writing this now before I go to sleep with the laptop in my lap.  I'll update tomorrow

[pattonme]

Sounds like an ECU re-flash is in order (or did I miss it?). Also it's a TWIN, stop riding it like an I4 supersport. What on earth are you doing downshifting at 10K for? Try 6K. Ask wizened SV650 racers where to shift. Similar engine characteristics.

[sorkyah]

you didnt get the yoyodyne slipper from andy when you purchased the rest of the kit?
 
And i'll agree with @pattonme here
6-7k is the sweetspot for easy downshifts when in the higher gears
3-2 and 2-1 can handle 8-8.5k without breaking the rear loose but you still get the heavier than shit engine brake

[gogokawi]

Sounds like an ECU re-flash is in order (or did I miss it?). Also it's a TWIN, stop riding it like an I4 supersport. What on earth are you doing downshifting at 10K for? Try 6K. Ask wizened SV650 racers where to shift. Similar engine characteristics.

I have the ECU flash.  I kind of would like to know what it felt like prior to the flash for comparison sake. 
As far as shifting, 10k was probably overstating it.  It's been around 8k or so when I would start the down shifting.  I had to look at the dash to see where the tach line is.     The issue isn't that the rear breaks loose immediately.  It's when shifting down multiple gears, like going from 5th into 3rd quickly, the bike doesn't like it.  My riding style has been to brake and then shift to the gear I want as fast as possible.  That can't be done on this bike in the current configuration without the rear dancing.  I've had to brake and then down shift one gear at a time with a bit more time in between shifts.  I feel much slower doing it this way, and not as precise.  But it's a necessity at this point, unless someone can give some words of wisdom.  I would definitely appreciate that.  I'm racing at NJMP this weekend and I'm going into 2 corners slower than I did on my Ninja 300, which I'm assuming is because of the downshifting.  I'm sure I'll figure it out.  It's just so different.
 
Funny that you say the SV650.  I got this bike because I hated the way the SV rode.  I thought this would be a bike that you could ride similarly to the Ninja 300 (another parallel twin), high in the revs with some low end grunt.  This is my 2nd weekend racing it and it's starting to feel very similar to the SV that I sold.  The Ninja 650 is closer engine-wise to what I thought the FZ would be like, which is fine.  Just not what I was expecting.
 

you didnt get the yoyodyne slipper from andy when you purchased the rest of the kit? 
And i'll agree with @pattonme here
6-7k is the sweetspot for easy downshifts when in the higher gears
3-2 and 2-1 can handle 8-8.5k without breaking the rear loose but you still get the heavier than shet engine brake

No I didn't get it.  I didn't think it would be needed.  Boy was I was wrong.  I talked to him about it last week, and it's just not in the budget right now.  Maybe next year.
 

[twf]

You need to keep speed up and not downshift so much. Use higher gear and more corner speed, that is what this bikes are all about.
If you have to downshift 2 or 3 times than you should have time to do it as well.
We are at class record pace with our bike and no issues with downshifts or clutch. We do run different set up than you or other AP bikes.
In fact all slipper clutches we had in sv's were taken out and riders went faster without them. You need to learn how to ride it instead putting slipper in.

[pattonme]

there's a lot of back-torque and it's a parallel twin in name only - the crank makes it act like a v-twin. Personally I would ride it into corner entry by braking and braking and braking and only once the RPMs are getting ~5K do the multiple downshifts. the "pro" way to do it (IMO) is to wait till <7K and pull in enough clutch so it's not quite freewheeling and bang a couple down shifts and since the clutch is barely engaged the wheel won't hop but it will spin the motor up. IMO you want to be tipped in at 5-6K rpm and getting hard on the gas. Not trying to add gas with the engine already at 8K+. If you're frantically rowing the gearbox IMO you're doing it wrong.
 
The ninja 300 *does* let you ride it more like an I4.

[thomascrown]

I've never felt the need for a slipper clutch. You get good drive out of corners at 6kish rpm, and it's easier blipping the throttle with an R6 throttle tube.

[gogokawi]

I really appreciate the passionate responses. I've been able to solve some of the issues I stated earlier, and introduce others this weekend. This is my forth day on the bike. And I think I've done pretty darn well jumping on a new bike and learning it. Well, I'm still learning, mistakes and all...
 
Going forward, I won't treat this thread like a blog. I'll keep it strictly about the bike build, and not any of the issues I encounter during racing. That way my issues with learning the bike and racing advice don't overshadow the purpose of this thread, which is putting together the bike.
 
Speaking of bike build, I will be adding a steering damper. I was almost tossed from the bike a few times this weekend by steering wobble. I'll put up what how I build the damper. I looked at some of the SV's and have an idea of what to do. ProTek fork clamp with a way to attach the damper to the frame. More to come on that one.

[gogokawi]

The steering damper is now on, though I'm going to replace the one I installed with a longer one for more peace of mind in the case of a crash.  The current one I have is just long enough.  I think it's 255mm in length.  I'm getting ont that's 300mm.
 
I bought a Pro-Tek fork clamp, 41mm, off of eBay.  And i had a steering damper that I got for my Ninja 300 which I never used.  I figured I'll just try it to see if it fits.  Luckily it did.
 
The install was simple, even for me.  On the rider's right side of the frame, there is a hole for an 8mm bolt.  I put the body of the damper there and then attached the head to the fork clamp.  I had to do make quite a few adjustments to get it to work properly.  But it's on for the next couple of weeks until the longer one comes in.  Then I'll probably flip the damper so the body is on the fork clamp.  In terms of time, it took about 20 minutes to put on and do the adjustments.
 
 

 

 

 

[goose]

I've been setting mine up for spirited street use and track days. Suspension and ride heights front/rear have been my first order of business. Pattons fork cartridges have been great so far, I cut them on the longer side so I'm at most about 5mm high up front between fork clamp position and a pinch extra travel from the cartridge upgrade. Spring preload will tune that a bit too. No issues.
 
I'm really curious to see where you settle in on the rear ride height. I'm running an Ohlins set up with a longer stroke (only 3mm which factors out to more like 11mm at the axle given the suspesion linkage) but also my ohlins was from a gen 1 SV so it's a longer body. All told I have used threaded links in the back to get this longer shock working at a good height...big benefit is the comp/rebound and spring options from this style of ohlins.
 
I'm about 10mm high in the back ride height which is a generic thing I'm used to from other shock mods I've become used to from previous KTM and Hondas that I've run at the track.
 
Most of all, I've learned how STIFF the oem spring rate is for the FZ-07. I've got a nice stash of ohlins springs but this FZ runs a much heavier spring than even the FZ-09. Further, when you get up to this 130nM rear spring the intervals offered in upgrade springs really goes away in large increments.
 
Will be interesting if anyone will start to offer a completely different linkage to help riders run a more linear rate and light springs overall to help get some finer tuning springs for setting up.

[twf]

 
Will be interesting if anyone will start to offer a completely different linkage to help riders run a more linear rate and light springs overall to help get some finer tuning springs for setting up.

It already is linear.

[goose]

explain this to me a little more if you could. I have a hard time believing its a linear rate link. Otherwise it would be a direct shock to swingarm mount (like a dirt bike or some KTM streetbikes) wouldn't it? The link translates shock stroke multiplied by about 3 times from my math and measurements. My thinking has been that any time a link is used there has to be at least a bit of progression to the curve.
 
I do believe the rear shock (and most shocks) spring is linear on most bikes, but the links help ramp up so bottoming out won't be liability. On front fork springs there is rarely a linkage (except in bmw telelever designs) so thats why OEM's spec progressive springs in factory street forks

[twf]

Just because there are links there does not mean it is not linear. Actually most sport bikes are linear, in linkage and spring. Even without linkages it does not mean it is linear.
If you measure wheel travel in small increments and measure shock travel in those same increments you can see if linear or not. If value does not change it is linear.
Linkage is there mostly for packaging reasons. Ratio between wheel and shock on this bike is about 2.5:1. Which means for 2.5mm at wheel shock moves 1mm. If that shock moves 1mm for every additional 2.5mm at wheel you have linear linkage.
Telelever is something else, its purpose is to keep forks solid and short. It does not mean it is not linear. I have not measured that one so I don't know its specs. And many bikes have linear springs in forks as well, FZ07 included (.875). Some have progressive.
 

[blackout]

explain this to me a little more if you could. I have a hard time believing its a linear rate link. Otherwise it would be a direct shock to swingarm mount (like a dirt bike or some KTM streetbikes) wouldn't it? The link translates shock stroke multiplied by about 3 times from my math and measurements. My thinking has been that any time a link is used there has to be at least a bit of progression to the curve. 
I do believe the rear shock (and most shocks) spring is linear on most bikes, but the links help ramp up so bottoming out won't be liability. On front fork springs there is rarely a linkage (except in bmw telelever designs) so thats why OEM's spec progressive springs in factory street forks

Actually, when ever a shock mounts directly to a swingarm it is digressive.  This is because the shock will increase in angle as the suspension is compressed, so the shock will compress less per inch of wheel travel.  So, when designers add a link, they are looking to make the suspension either linear or progressive. 

[goose]

Actually, when ever a shock mounts directly to a swingarm it is digressive.  This is because the shock will increase in angle as the suspension is compressed, so the shock will compress less per inch of wheel travel.  So, when designers add a link, they are looking to make the suspension either linear or progressive. 

Then maybe digressive is a great thing.  Dirtbikes are notoriously not using linkages and their suspension challenges are incredible.  Big hits, whoops, high speeds low speeds tons of travel, negative travel, etc.  I know some racing dirt bikes might have an odd rear link somewhere, but theres a lot of great ones that don't.  Shock valving is likely taking over for the linkage I'm guessing. 
I also see adjustable linkages for racebikes like the R6, so I kinda get the feeling that what you're getting with these setups, other than ride height, is linear vs progression adjustment.  Letting someone tune what's happening in the early part of the stroke vs the later part of stroke...because why would you want a link for an R6 if it was already linear in design?  So the FZ07 is linear by default and the R6 isn't?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[blackout]

Actually, when ever a shock mounts directly to a swingarm it is digressive.  This is because the shock will increase in angle as the suspension is compressed, so the shock will compress less per inch of wheel travel.  So, when designers add a link, they are looking to make the suspension either linear or progressive. 

Then maybe digressive is a great thing.  Dirtbikes are notoriously not using linkages and their suspension challenges are incredible.  Big hits, whoops, high speeds low speeds tons of travel, negative travel, etc.  I know some racing dirt bikes might have an odd rear link somewhere, but theres a lot of great ones that don't.  Shock valving is likely taking over for the linkage I'm guessing. 
I also see adjustable linkages for racebikes like the R6, so I kinda get the feeling that what you're getting with these setups, other than ride height, is linear vs progression adjustment.  Letting someone tune what's happening in the early part of the stroke vs the later part of stroke...because why would you want a link for an R6 if it was already linear in design?  So the FZ07 is linear by default and the R6 isn't?
 
 
 
 
 
 

What dirt bikes are you talking about??  Linked suspensions are always on the best bikes.  I even saw it in my three wheeler days.  ATC 250R, Tecate 250, Tri-Z 250,....  A linked suspension allows you to design the suspension to do what you want it to do.  A non-linked suspension is always a compromise as the shock gets mounted toward the engine so that the frame takes less suspension loads, so there will usually be a descent shock angle relative to the suspension movement.

[twf]

Actually, when ever a shock mounts directly to a swingarm it is digressive.  This is because the shock will increase in angle as the suspension is compressed, so the shock will compress less per inch of wheel travel.  So, when designers add a link, they are looking to make the suspension either linear or progressive. 

Then maybe digressive is a great thing.  Dirtbikes are notoriously not using linkages and their suspension challenges are incredible.  Big hits, whoops, high speeds low speeds tons of travel, negative travel, etc.  I know some racing dirt bikes might have an odd rear link somewhere, but theres a lot of great ones that don't.  Shock valving is likely taking over for the linkage I'm guessing. 
I also see adjustable linkages for racebikes like the R6, so I kinda get the feeling that what you're getting with these setups, other than ride height, is linear vs progression adjustment.  Letting someone tune what's happening in the early part of the stroke vs the later part of stroke...because why would you want a link for an R6 if it was already linear in design?  So the FZ07 is linear by default and the R6 isn't?
 
 
 
Digressive is great, on the car
Cars usually run digressive valving in shocks, with a lot of low speed damping. That is what I have in my track car. I still run linear springs.
 
 
 
 

 

[gogokawi]

It's been quite a while since I've been on the forums. Had a crash that knocked me out for most of the season, broken collarbone and messed up shoulder. Once I get some time, I'll write something up about what and how it happened. The bike is fine, just not as pretty as it was. More to come.

[howlinhoss]

It's been quite a while since I've been on the forums. Had a crash that knocked me out for most of the season, broken collarbone and messed up shoulder. Once I get some time, I'll write something up about what and how it happened. The bike is fine, just not as pretty as it was. More to come.

Wow sounds like a nasty crash. Will you be coaching with Evolve next year? Looking forward to your updates.
 
I have all the pieces I need for my semi naked fz07r build.
 
Question for you, when you installed the rearset plates, how did you prop up the rear?

[mossrider]

If you have a docking station or lift table just clamp the front and put a jack stand under the rear frame crossmember.

[mossrider]

It's been quite a while since I've been on the forums. Had a crash that knocked me out for most of the season, broken collarbone and messed up shoulder. Once I get some time, I'll write something up about what and how it happened. The bike is fine, just not as pretty as it was. More to come.

Glad to here you're back and ok.  Hope to race with you someday. Henks and I race with the CRA in MN but will be at Road America too this year along with another FZ from our club. Love your bike.  
Cheers!