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Unboxing Matris with my QA Inspector


fzonly1

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@fzonly1: I was wondering how many clicks (the entire range) we have in the F15K...
I've searching the web, but no luck.
At Matris they are rebuilding the web site, so no news down there...
I remember that you are @15 clicks from closed position (for either the two legs).
 
I was searching to imagine how big is the range of regulations, and what can be the best fork oil for the "C" leg (for my needs and for my riding style). 8-|
In these months my MT-07 is sleeping... (zzz)  ;)
 

www.MT-Series.it
Yamaha Official MT-Series Club

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Thanks, @pattonme !
I suppose that you mean 12 clicks from the "all-close" position.
This is because after the twelfth position the holes are too big for the density (...the lightness??) of the oil?

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Yamaha Official MT-Series Club

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@fzonly1: I was wondering how many clicks (the entire range) we have in the F15K... I've searching the web, but no luck.
At Matris they are rebuilding the web site, so no news down there...
I remember that you are @15 clicks from closed position (for either the two legs).
 
I was searching to imagine how big is the range of regulations, and what can be the best fork oil for the "C" leg (for my needs and for my riding style). 8-|
In these months my MT-07 is sleeping... (zzz)  ;)

I wondered myself how much of the available click was actually effective.
If I remember correctly it will top out at 22 clicks or so. I'm pulling my C leg today with hopes of mailing it out to Pattonme tomorrow or Tuesday. We are finally gettin a cold blast for about a week so it's a good time to pull her apart again. It's been in the mid 80's and HUMID all week.
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yes, everything is counted from fully closed. The Matris has an unusual setup whereby the clicker is set independent of the shaft. the plunger rod that pushes on the needle only extends 3 or at most 4 mm proud and at 1.0 pitch that equates to 3 or 4 turns (12-16 clicks). More than that the clicker is no longer in contact with the rod so the needle is topped out by the spring sitting underneath it.

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Ok, now it's clear.
So, the useful range is about 16 clicks, the 6 more clicks are irrelevant, because the needle is topped out.
Strange behavior... I'll write to Matris in order to find the reason of that thing.
Thanks a lot for your precious explanation.

www.MT-Series.it
Yamaha Official MT-Series Club

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  • 1 month later...

@fzonly1 : what's the status of the "C" leg? Any news about the @pattonme upgrades?

www.MT-Series.it
Yamaha Official MT-Series Club

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  • 4 months later...

I have news.
 
I've installed the F15K two months ago.
I weight 68 kg in wear.
Spring rate is 9.
Motorex 5w in the two legs, same level: -130 mm (stanchion all the way down, no spring, damping rods all the way down).
Preload internal in the middle position. External preload all the way up.
The forks was very strong to move. The only way to ride with, was with the registers all open. On the road was ok with good roads and with good asphalt, but on the sharp bumps and with bad asphalt (a frequent situation here in Italy) was a nightmare.
 
I've changed the oil with Motorex 2,5W in either the two legs. Level: -140 mm.
Preload in the lower position. Same spring. External preload all the way up.
Really really better. The forks was reacting really well on the asphalt (good or bad, no problem).
In this situation the registers good for me was C=12 and R=15.
The only thing that was no good was the static sag: too little. About 15 mm.
 
Actually I have springs with K=8,5 and Motorex 5W again (installed by Matris at the factory - it's a long story).
I don't know the level, but I suppose it's the standard -130 mm.
The forks are less strong to compress, but on the road the only way to ride with is with the registers all open, again.
 
I hope I can switch to the Motorex 2,5W very soon.
I'll let you know.

www.MT-Series.it
Yamaha Official MT-Series Club

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Dude
Your springs are way too heavy, bike is 178 kg you are 68 kg, what are you going to use the 9 springs for, stunting? You'll need 7.5-8kg/mm
Go check sonic springs for their calculator. Good luck and happy riding

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Thank you, @twotone .
I've done a check right now with Sonic Springs calculator.
For my weight 68 kg + 10 kg = 78 kg in gear e for the MT-07 ABS (182 kg) the correct spring rate for SonicSprings is 0,80 kgf/mm (if I check "sport bike") and go down to 0,75 kgf/mm (if I check "standard/sport touring").
Always checked "no tank bag" and "normal street riding".
 
By comparison, in the mounting instructions of the Öhlins FKS204 (the NIX22 cartridge for the MT-07 and FZ), I've found this table:
WU84dG9.png
 
and according to this table the right rate for my weight is 9.0 N/mm (about 0,91 kgf/mm).
Who is right?
 
Matris (for my weight and for the MT-07) provide the "9" or the "8,5".
Anyway, with the 9 spring and the Motorex 2,5W the bike was really smooth and I was really happy to ride with.
Registers was C=12 and R=15. Preload all out: the static sag was only 15 mm in this way.
Due to a problem in the Rebound leg, I've had sent forks to Matris. They've fixed the problem in the Rebound leg, and they've installed the 8,5 springs but with the "standard" (for them) 5W.
With this oil the high-speed movements of the forks on the road are no speedy enough.
The only way to go, is with the registers all open. Eventually, the rebound @20 clicks (from all close) and compression all open.
Basically for these reasons I'm planning to go to the 2,5W again. Maybe with their 8,5 spring, at this time.

www.MT-Series.it
Yamaha Official MT-Series Club

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If you're an expert racer on smooth tracks go with ohlins #s if you ride on variety of public roads and want comfort go with sonic, and you can use the preload to adjust to your preference. 8.5 springs will give you more sporty performance, if that's your preference. But you will know for sure when you try and set you sag (do so with a helper)
Your cartridges seem set to a stiff / racing standard, can you buy "0" fluid in your area? It would be preferable if your clickers were set in the middle of the range, but this seems like a bandaid for over stiff shim/piston arrangement.
Good luck keep posting your findings or at least start you own thread to get more interest.

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Oh BTW, I just re read your previous post and you mention inner preload is middle position, you must know how many mm this is from free Spring length, if you trust the Ohlins info above, use thier preload numbers, and the 8.5 nm Spring might be a little more compliant, but again check sag numbers.
Eg for 120mm travel 25/40mm ie static/rider sag is a good starting point.

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Thank you, @twotone .
The inner preload WAS in the middle position at the time of the first setup (spring 9 and Motorex 5W). But the forks was too much stiff, even with all the registers all open and no preload (external).
Then, when I came (the second time) to my mechanic for the oil change, we set the inner preload in the middle position. Oil 2,5W.
At this point my bike was really smooth to ride. Really nice on the bad asphalt, but really firm in the hi-speed turns, and really good also on mountain roads. The only bad thing was the static sag: only 15 mm. Too little.
Then, few days after, the forks began to vibrate, something like no hydraulic control (R side).
I've spoken with Matris's technician, and they request if I can send the forks to him.
Done.
They've found that a little aluminum part was into the rebound shims, and the rebound valve was always open.
This little part was probably something that came from the production. Not a fault of my mechanic (in Matris they've found a perfect and "surgical-mounted" cartridge).
At this point they've changed the springs to 8,5 and they've used the 5W oil, level standard 130 mm. Inner preload at the low position.
But: the fork at this point is another time like after the first setup. Too much stiff again. But at this point the static sag is about 18 mm.
Better than before. Now I'm planning to use again the 2,5 oil.
I'll let you know.

www.MT-Series.it
Yamaha Official MT-Series Club

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> They've found that a little aluminum part was into the rebound shims,
 
Damn it, does this mean I have to take the R leg apart too when selling them thru to check their work?!?
 
0.9kg/mm is rather too stiff a spring for 65kg/150lb rider.
 
depending on where your R clicker is, just run the 5W in the R leg as-is and go with the 2.5 (IMO go even thinner) on the C leg.
 

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[...] 
Damn it, does this mean I have to take the R leg apart too when selling them thru to check their work?!?
 
[...]
Sincerely, I really hope that's a really unlucky situation, and I really hope that this fault never happen again on another F15K. 
I'm currently waiting for the Motorex 2,5W (15,10 cSt@40°), and I've planned to retry this into the C leg (level 130 mm, I think it's make sense with a "softer" spring).
At this moment, my registers are R=10, C=25 but the feeling is no good.
When I had the 2,5W in the two legs, level 140 mm (before the Matris's factory repair because of the little aluminium part, and before the substitution of the spring with the 8,5), the registers was R=15, C=12. And the bike was really fun to ride. The only bad news was the static sag too little.
 
As soon as the shipping will arrive, I'll try the 2,5W in the C leg and I'll try R=15 and C=15 (maybe 12 or 10, because now I have a softer spring), and I'll see.
If I feel something strange in the R leg, I'll try with the 2,5W even in that side.
 
 

www.MT-Series.it
Yamaha Official MT-Series Club

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While you have it apart check the internal preload measurement, you want minimal with the .85's, like the Ohlins chart, in my opinion they're still not light enough

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If you're going to change the oil height, start with 150mm. You can always add more in pretty easily later.
 
I assume you're counting clicks CCW from fully seated? If with 2.5W oil you were running R=-15 and it felt good, and now with 5w oil in there you're running R=-10, you have too much rebound damping.
 
I would set the C leg to at least -3.5 turns and the R to -3 turns (24 clicks I think?). Then IGNORE the 'C' adjuster for now. You want rebound to be as fast as possible with no more than 1 'hop' when giving the frontend a healthy shove and letting your arms go limp. Adjust R till you get to the point and then go ride, tweaking a in 1/2 turn increments to find the best overall feel - in particular stability AFTER hitting bumps or making transitions into/out of lean and corners.
 
If big impacts (1" or more) are really harsh, take another turn out of the C leg and back out R by 1/2 turn and re-evaluate.
Use a zip-tie on the legs to measure how much sag and stroke you're generally using.
 

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@twotone, the internal preload is at the lower position, since the moment of the oil change from 5W to 2,5W.
Even now, after the repair at the Matris factory and the install of the 8,5 spring, is at the lower position.
When I'll receive the oil, I'll don't unmount the whole cartridges in order to make any internal change.
 
@Pattonme, thank you for your suggestions.
I'll change the oil to 150 mm as you suggest.
I'll do more: I'll go to 130 mm, and then I'll subtract 10 mm and I'll measure the subtracted quantity with the 20 cc syringe, then I'll subtract another 10 mm in order to arrive to the 150 mm.
In this way I can know how many cc I have to add if I want go to 140, or 130. ;)
 
Please, do you suggest to do the same level in the R leg (with the 5W), or I can try to leave that leg to the standard level of 130 mm?
 
I'm counting the clicks from all close ("0" position, then the first click is the [HASH]1).
You are right: with the 5W I was feeling better the bike with the registers more open than now. But the fork was no good like the moment when I've had the 2,5 and the 9 springs. At this moment I'm with these settings only for test. Not for my pleasure... only for tests.
 
About the "hops": when I've mounted the forks with the 5W and the 8,5 spring I've done a test by braking hard from 100 km/h.
No hops, at all. My setting at that moment was Preload 2 mm, R 15, C 15, I've done the same test by opening R to 20, than to 25, than opening C to 20, than to 25. Than, the last experiment, all open. No hops in all the situations.
The only difference, by opening the C register more and more, was the more speed of the fork in diving.
 
I'll let you know the changes when I'll change the oil.

www.MT-Series.it
Yamaha Official MT-Series Club

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simple math: ID=37mm as I recall. fill and bleed and set oil height to 150mm. For each 10mm less oil height add 10 to 11 cc of fluid.
 
pi * (37/2)^2 * 10 = 10752mm^3 => 10.75cc
 
Use the same oil height in each leg.
 
In general terms you want 'C' as open as possible in high-speed events that also prevents excessive travel use, and just enough restriction to provide "feel" for low-speed events. Normally the needle is used to tweak this low-speed/feel section of the curve. However given how bloody ridiculous the C leg's base piston shim stack is and restricted the mid-valve is in compression, you pretty much have to run it wide open just to get sufficient flow. A very thin oil (10cSt@40) can move things around such that the needle can actually be put to some use.
 
For 'R' you want it as fast as possible but just shy of pogo'ing.
 
 

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Matt, you need to deduct the rod volume and any other item that takes up volume when calculating oil level increase like that. 10.75cc of added oil will increase oil level just over 11mm in a 37mm inside diameter and a 12mm rod going through it. This is especially important to remember if there is a spring guide and to a certain extent springs and spacers also take up volume.

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Etorty
 
I realise you have the preload at the softest internal setting from your previous reply, but it is still an unknown measure, I mentioned this again so that you can calculate what you have and what you can adjust to in order to get the most out of your .85's so you can compromise, and avoid buying softer springs.

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