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databyter

Body Position And Tight Turns. Have I Been Wrong?

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databyter
I saw this the other day and thought Oh Crap. The thing is that this guy basically lost traction because he was leaned over pretty far and a peg started scraping and didn't get out of the way and he lost tire traction.
 
And the consensus is that it was because he was sitting to centered and upright.
 
Well, guess what. I had thought that leaning over the seat was just grandstanding off of a racetrack, and my newbie riding style is pretty much like this guys. I lean over and center myself over the seat, and just go with it, letting the bike do the work.
 
Now after watching this vid I am wondering if I am an accident ready to happen, especially since I am wanting to go do some riding in the nice hills in San Diego County.
 
A coupla thoughts,..
 
One, the bike he was riding looked like it had fairly good lean clearance and should be comparable to the FZ, but what do I know.
 
Also, it's notoriously hard to tell from a vid how fast a guy is actually going or how far he is leaning, but to me, it looks like it's not THAT fast, and he isn't leaned TOO far over, and that is what scares me, because that guy coulda been me.
 
I am guessing that there is a style that is somewhere between upright manakin, and knee scraping hero, that I will need to practice to ride in the twisties...
 
How does the FZ stack lean clearance wise? How do our tires do on edge (stock michelins).
 
p.s.  I'm not looking to break land speed records, but I want to be competant and have fun, intitially, eventually I would like to have the skills to take challenging tight turns quickly and safely.
 
Thoughts?
 
 
 
[video src=https://youtu.be/Jw2hzskmaFc]

Databyter

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fz07fanboy
If you're going around turns then you should at least get a butt cheek over on the seat and lean with the bike instead of staying centered. As far as the bike handles clearance wise, its pretty decent but i'm very hesitant to lean very far because of the suspension. I get feedback from the bike that doesn't give me very good confidence but here is a clip of me going around the snake exactly where this guy wrecked.
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5QsNpL0kHCkcXNVelM1UkFBRHc/view?usp=sharing
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duenan
My butt cheek leaves the seat even when I'm not taking super tight curves just out of habit alone.

Engaging with people that have personality disorders on a message board is like arguing with a rock.

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databyter
If you're going around turns then you should at least get a butt cheek over on the seat and lean with the bike instead of staying centered. As far as the bike handles clearance wise, its pretty decent but i'm very hesitant to lean very far because of the suspension. I get feedback from the bike that doesn't give me very good confidence but here is a clip of me going around the snake exactly where this guy wrecked. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5QsNpL0kHCkcXNVelM1UkFBRHc/view?usp=sharing
To clarify, I DO lean WITH the bike. I just don't lean further, but I am re-thinking that.

Databyter

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Allan
Yeah, that guy was leaned over pretty far for a naked bike, at least in my opinion. +1 about the suspension killing confidence in corners. There is a nice round-a-bout at my University and I get fairly far on the side but I'm sure if I were viewing from a pedestrian's point of view me doing that, I'm sure it wouldn't look impressive at all. But that is all I'm comfortable doing. @fz07fanboy Did you know that guy filming? I loved his reaction. Haha

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thomascrown
Yes, being a stiff robot is unacceptable at that pace.
 
 
 

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fz07fanboy
Yeah, that guy was leaned over pretty far for a naked bike, at least in my opinion. +1 about the suspension killing confidence in corners. There is a nice round-a-bout at my University and I get fairly far on the side but I'm sure if I were viewing from a pedestrian's point of view me doing that, I'm sure it wouldn't look impressive at all. But that is all I'm comfortable doing. @fz07fanboy Did you know that guy filming? I loved his reaction. Haha
Yes I knew him. He's a riding buddy of mine. I didn't realize he was recording me until later when he showed me the video. I'm not paying attending accept looking around the corner. People at "The Snake" are there all the time on weekends taking pictures and recording video. I just don't pay much attention because that will get you into an accident. A lot of people there go for the fact that its a very popular road and to have pictures taken.

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YZEtc
Turning the throttle off and on mid-corner doesn't help, either.
My guess is the guy was staring at the Armco rail and was in trouble before the lowside happened.
 
He came in a bit too fast, spooked himself, moved the throttle, unsettled the bike, and tore a hole in his jeans.
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jerryv
Yeah ... looks like he lost traction on the front wheel first, from what I can see. That 675 didn't even have a plate yet.

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Guest Ralph
New tyres to much speed?
Used to fit tyres for one nutter and every time
I told him to take it easy for a 100 miles or so,
every time he dumped it at least once and sometimes
three times before they settled down.
Just had another look the tyres are  scrubbed right to the edge, strange as he does not seem
to be travelling that fast.

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Eastern Kayaker
Nice Street Triple RX, hopefully it only had cosmetic damage.

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Beemer
The guy in the video looked to be going into that corner too fast and cracked the throttle a bit just before he lost traction. You can see where he's diving down toward the center line and then almost immediately starts moving toward the outside, (big "too fast" indicator) before he reached the apex and then it went into a slide. Riding upright and leaning over is fine if you're taking it easy but if you're riding aggressively it's better to hang off the side, I'm sure.

Beemer

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randy2100
Looks like he dragged a foot peg, then continued to put pressure on the peg, thus unweighting the tires.

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yamahaha
There is a reason for "knee dragging". Using your body as a counterweight negates the need for excessive lean. It's a skill I do not have and one that is best learned on the track where you do not have traffic, guard rails, trees, and ditches etc. to contend with.
 
I have had my ass handed to me by guys who really know the road and know how to corner. It's a sobering experience when you think you are doing pretty good.
 
Yesterday I caught up to an old suzuki gs 1000(I think) on a very twisty road. I think he was a little peeved and tried to pull away from me. He took one corner badly and ended up in the oncoming lane. Luckily there was no traffic. Scared him enough to pull over.
 
Over riding your ability can get you hurt or killed.

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pauljr
I actually just read something on this very subject in one of the monthlies I get. Leaning into the turn is not always the only way. I would tell riders to experiment, safely of course. I learned about counter steering sometime in the early 70's just by experimenting which was prior to it being common knowledge, to me at least. I was always told shifting weight was the way to turn a bike, hmmm, this bar thing seems to have some influence. Try sitting on the high side when going around a corner sometime (moderate speeds) see how it feels. Your motorcycle will react differently to different inputs, the more you try, the more you learn. No one way that is always correct for everyone in every situation.

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pattonme
@YZEtc gets the prize for the correct answer. Rolled off the throttle mid-corner -> weight transfer to front tire -> exceeded traction pie -> (dusty road doesn't help) -> wipe out!

bannerfans_1095431.jpg

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stefano225
What about that patched road at 0:43 and not shifting his body before entering curve.I'm not an expert but I think that patched spot had something to do with it.Also at 0.18 not sure what bike was,but if that was an Harley could have spilled some oil  :D causing the slide,again not an expert. 

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fz07fanboy
It really was rider error/possibly still new tires needing to be broken in. The road is fine. I ride this road practically every weekend. I was just there yesterday. One has to be cautious how fast you take this turn.

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pattonme
The guy is riding a Triumph, it spills it'w own oil. Oh wait, that was a pre-Hinkley trait.
A couple degrees less lean (move body inward) might have saved him, sure, but this is a text book case of not keeping a margin of error and failing to set the proper entrance speed.
 
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bannerfans_1095431.jpg

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n2shotokai
YouTube - Twist of the Wrist
There is a reason that video and so many others look so familiar. People hangout on that section of the snake just waiting for people to crash on THAT corner.
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amycyclenut
This is a good video too:
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2015 FZ-07
1986 FZ600
1974 CB450
1973 RD350
sold: 1970 CB350, 1972 CB175, 2009 Vespa S 150

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pjohn
hi all new rider here. trying to learn as much as i can here and outside. so was the rider going to fast? it was poor technique? or both?

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fz07fanboy
I would say it was poor technique more than anything else.

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gregjet
The only time you should move your weight outwards and push the lean down is if you are trying to make the bike slide. It allows you to bring the bike back up to control the sideways slip to fine tune the slide.
Simple physics means that if you move your weight into towards the centre of the radius of the corner, the your centre of mass vector outwards means the bike does not have to be leaned over as far to keep the bikes CoG ( or the CoM vector) inside the contact patches of the wheels.
ie climb off and you don't have to lean the bike as far.
ALSO keeping the bike more upright allows the suspension to move vertically more easily and be more compliant ie you won't get kicked onto your butt if you hit unevenness mid corner.
Also allows you to bake longer and/or later into the corner and hit the throttle earlier with the bike more upright ( motard style not withstanding) on exit.
It does carry the con of having policemen harry you after seeing you do it as they regard it as a bad thing as they are taught WRONG and still are about moving off.
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Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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