Shifting smoothly

[manuel]

New rider here (probably the worst combo actually - 40yr old and new rider, I guess my brain will require a bit more exercise than a youngster's in order to acquire new skills) and I am a bit puzzled by shifting....
Bit of background here, just to establish the setting of this conversation: yes, I took the course and yes, I have no problem understanding how clutches and transmissions work, as I have been driving all sorts of manual transmissions in front, rear and all wheel drive variety cars (to the point where I don't even realize I am shifting or pulling those perfect heel-and-toe downshifts), it's just I am trying to understand and practice what you regard as the best methods used on motorcycles. I tried watching some youtube videos, but I would also like to hear your opinions as well. This is what I have learned so far:
1. I realize practice-practice-practice is key. I go out every Saturday and Sunday morning (6 or 7AM), weather permitting, and play on the empty roads around my place. 20-25% of my shifts (either up or down) work nicely, problem is I try to repeat what worked and suddenly what I thought was working becomes a mess. Add a bit of traffic around me and I become even choppier...argh!
2. When upshifting: [span]    2.1.[/span] I tried rolling off the throttle completely when pulling the clutch in (kind of like in cars), but then, after shifting and before releasing the clutch, I roll on the throttle too little and engine brake happens, or too hard and the bike lurches forward...and of course the coasting phase (between pulling and releasing the clutch) is so long, it's embarrassing.[span]    2.2.[/span] I then tried keeping the throttle in the same position, but of course when you pull the clutch in, the engine revs like crazy, as there is no load, and there is no chance I can rev match next gear under those circumstances - quickly determined this is a no go[span]    2.3.[/span] I then tried to roll off the throttle partially, just to keep the engine kind of ready for the next gear. I had the best rate of success using this, but of course, problems described in point 2.1. are still applicable.
 
3. When downshifting - funny enough, I find this easier as I realize you can either rev match (cooler, if you get it right) or slowly release the clutch and let the engine and transmission match their speed (lamer, and potentially clutch wear inducing).
How are you guys doing it? Teach me, masters!
 

[Guest unknown]

2: Try and do it as quickly as possible. These engines can rev much quicker than car engines so your shifts need to be that much faster. 2.3 is the method I use but I do it so quickly that as the revs drop, my rpms match right at the next shift and it stays smooth
 
3. If I'm coasting I can easily rev match when downshifting, however, using the front brake during this process is challenging. Practice Practice Practice is key

[Guru]

I've been riding for more then 25 years and I still sometimes find myself fumbling up shifting. Most of the time it's smooth but especially when I am tired, I 'clunk' more. It really annoys me when it happens. It's a ballet of clutch, revs and timing.
 

[manuel]

2: Try and do it as quickly as possible. These engines can rev much quicker than car engines so your shifts need to be that much faster. 2.3 is the method I use but I do it so quickly that as the revs drop, my rpms match right at the next shift and it stays smooth 
3. If I'm coasting I can easily rev match when downshifting, however, using the front brake during this process is challenging. Practice Practice Practice is key

Great points, thanks!
#2: sounds like a plan for tonight!
#3: yeah, challenging! I do this the lame way, I pull the clutch in, downshift repeatedly and brake while coasting (no engine brake + coasting = lame, I think), release the clutch when I reach the appropriate gear. The other way I noticed this works is by using the engine brake and the rear brake combined (using the throttle hand just for one task - rev matching while downshifting). It works in most cases, the combined braking force is enough for most situations in my case and I don't coast as much.
 

[Guest unknown]

Another point to add since you are a new rider. About 90% of your braking power comes from the front brake. Most classes teach you to only rear brake when your about to come to a stop (less than 5 mph) or in advanced situations (used in tight turns to get a little more lean, essentially just track day use)
 
Try not to use it under heavy breaking. As you load the front end under heavy breaking, the weight shift can lift the rear tire off the ground or reduce the weight on it substantially. This will cause the rear brake to lock up that tire very easily resulting in loss of control.

[manuel]

Yes, fully aware of that. They actually showed us at the course what happens if you only use the rear brake - one of the instructors had a nice slide, just to make the point.
 
 

[Guest unknown]

Ooops, didn't notice you had taken a course. That was going to be my next recommendation. Keep practicing and you will get it

[lonerider]

Once i tried a Formula 1600. My shifting was truly a mess. Even if i drive manual transmission since a very long time. I learned riding motorcross at a very young age. So shifting on a bike, it's natural for me. But for a racing car, i'm really not good.
 
The trick is to know where is the friction's point. Always pull the clutch fast but release it slowly while accelerating gently. The synchronization is the secret. So, with practice, shifting will become better. In dense traffic, keep yourself loose to stay gentle with the clutch and the right wrist.
 
For braking, i use the rear brake at the end; just to stabilize the bike. Like that, i avoid the diving of the front.

[jerryv]

I took the intermediate course long time ago and we locked the back brake purposely at low speed just to see what it's like. That was optional. They did teach that if you do lock up, don't release. If you fishtail on lockup and then release, the bike wants to straighten out and it can snap the tail back into position and even toss you off the bike.
 
So do most of you use no rear brake? I try to use both but with most up front. Won't some rear help eliminate fork dive?

[MeanMug]

 

I took the intermediate course long time ago and we locked the back brake purposely at low speed just to see what it's like. That was optional. They did teach that if you do lock up, don't release. If you fishtail on lockup and then release, the bike wants to straighten out and it can snap the tail back into position and even toss you off the bike. 
So do most of you use no rear brake? I try to use both but with most up front. Won't some rear help eliminate fork dive?

 
I use the rear only slightly , it likes to lock and slide real easy. Still practicing emergency braking. Trail braking at low parade speed helps me in parking lots. I agree both brakes are best and too much front unsettles the suspension.

[Guru]

I see myself using the rear brake more on this bike. It's amazing. No locking or sliding issues with mine. But for the most part it is the front one that does most of the work.

[jerryv]

Things I've noticed about the FZ07 as compared to my 2k Triumph Tbird. Of course it's 70 lbs lighter and the Tbird is top heavy. The FZ has way more brake so I just realized I better practice some hard stops too. Only grabbed a handful of brake once and was surprised. It's like throwin out an anchor. Also the engine breaking is much stronger on this machine, so you have to stay on the throttle to maintain speed.

[manuel]

You guys rock! Went outside yesterday for a longer ride and it all clicked in. Tried more of #2.3 (BTW, y'all got lost in talking about braking, come on people - back on track, shifting is at stake here!  8-) ) and my smooth shifting ratio went up considerably. I had a twisty section in my neighborhood (left-straight-right-left) and I wanted to squeeze a gear change in there on the straight section and that got me, but otherwise all was much smoother. I guess it helps when transmission is so smooth! Loving it.

[Guest unknown]

Good to hear and glad the advice helped!

[fechner]

I too am struggling with downshifting properly. I've been riding for a year now, but always took the easy way out - Held the clutch the whole time I'm braking and downshift all the way to first as I come to a stop. I'm trying to learn the proper way now with matching rpm to speed as downshifting, but it's tricky. I suppose it will just take practice.

[The Truth]

Screw it, i suggest getting a Busa and staying in first gear all day!!! 8D

[GAZ]

Being a new rider I can definitely attest that the faster you're able to upshift, the smoother it is. The people who say "It's cheaper to buy brake pads than transmissions" (this applies to cars as well), have no idea what they're talking about and have less chance (time) to get in the proper gear to evade a collision. I drive a manual car as well and I never push in the clutch and take it out of gear until I'm going about 5-10 mph and coming to a stop.

[manuel]

I agree, it seems that fast is key, as it feels easier to sync your movements that way.
 
Brake vs. transmission argument: it's probably about using engine brake - that is not damaging the transmission in any way and it's actually recommended during break-in.
 
Yeah, coasting - being in gear and staying on the clutch or just putting it neutral - is not only lame, but I remember during my driver's license test (note, in Europe) - they actually penalize you if you coast. There you go: it's "illegal"
P.S. I like your Z! Nice pic!

[Guru]

Yeah, coasting - being in gear and staying on the clutch or just putting it neutral - is not only lame, but I remember during my driver's license test (note, in Europe) - they actually penalize you if you coast. There you go: it's "illegal"
P.S. I like your Z! Nice pic!

I was told the same thing when I got my licence many years ago. That was in Europe too (Holland). They also told me to disengage the clutch with every downshift and use engine breaking as much as possible.
 
Out of curiosity; what country did you do you test?

[manuel]

Romania. Same rules. The other thing (among others that I can't remember now) was to never shift when turning (especially left). You don't want to mess around with your shifter when there are cars coming at you - sure you remember manual transmissions back then were not as slick as nowadays...

[Greenhound386]

Typing on a tablet, so please excuse the brevity.
 
Have your foot positioned under the shifter and ready to shift.
Chop the throttle closed while simultaneously engaging the clutch lever and the shifter. Remember to make a firm, deliberate shift with your foot.
Let the clutch lever back out quickly but smoothly as you roll back on the throttle.
 
When you get good, you can omit the clutch entirely on upshifts. I almost never, ever touch the clutch on upshifts.
 
Check out this video. Note how quickly the throttle can be chopped between shifts. Also, note that the clutch isn't touched on upshifts. This is to demonstrate that the engine only needs to be unloaded for the briefest period in order to get to the next gear.

 
Downshifting is trickier. The FZ has a ton of engine braking and can make downshifts rough. Try blipping the throttle when you have the clutch pulled in. This brings the revs up and matches the gears better when you go down a gear.

[mjh937]

I can do it pretty smoothly when I am not thinking about it. As soon as I think about it it gets less smooth. And faster seems a lot better.

[Cruizin]

Yesterday I did a balls out run on the FZ-09 in the desert and with the new ECU flash, fuel controller and pipe and me fully tucked I was able to reach 153 MPH.
 
I was speed shifting without the clutch.

[mjh937]

Was that an indicated speed or GPS?

[manuel]

 
Have your foot positioned under the shifter and ready to shift.

Thanks, yes, I figured that part . It didn't long to realize that if your foot is somewhere else, adding the "search for shifter" phase to the sequence clearly makes it harder.

Chop the throttle closed while simultaneously engaging the clutch lever and the shifter. Remember to make a firm, deliberate shift with your foot.
Let the clutch lever back out quickly but smoothly as you roll back on the throttle.

Working on syncing these parts. Noted the "chop" part, I was not doing it but I will try - makes sense.

When you get good, you can omit the clutch entirely on upshifts. I almost never, ever touch the clutch on upshifts.

I did this by mistake once and it worked very well - I just missed the clutch phase. Good suggestion though, noted the "when you get good" part. I am a bit far from that .

Check out this video. Note how quickly the throttle can be chopped between shifts. Also, note that the clutch isn't touched on upshifts. This is to demonstrate that the engine only needs to be unloaded for the briefest period in order to get to the next gear.

 
Downshifting is trickier. The FZ has a ton of engine braking and can make downshifts rough. Try blipping the throttle when you have the clutch pulled in. This brings the revs up and matches the gears better
when you go down a gear.

Funny enough, my brain has no problem working with the downshifts and the rev matching (I gave it a thorough workout during my car heel-toe-ing training days). I have less issues with it than with the upshifting.
But with all the suggestions here, I am getting better. Thanks a lot!
 
Oh, that video looks unreal. He's moving so fast! Hopefully, in time...