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New Matris F15 cartridge kit...thoughts?


fflier9

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@rick, I think I know why you can't see the images - they are served off of Dropbox and it's not uncommon for IT to block that lest they leak oh so valuable corporate IP to dog+world...
 
> So it's not the compression side that's bucking the flow on compression, but the rebound side?
 
No, it's the C leg. Specifically the mid-valve orifice size and base valve shim configuration. They're using a 12mm rod (vs 10mm) and that makes the problem worse.
 
> the impression that when you have only rebound adjustability, that making an R adjustment will also affect the compression as well. Is this not the case?
 
In the case of shocks, yes. But for forks if we're talking about a 4-piston setup, no, there is no interaction to speak of since the pop off spring is very light. If you run a beefy spring, then you might get some effects but you'll still need a dyno to see it.
 
> Sounds like both of these set-ups would have been better off with just that one adjustment.
 
Agreed. But marketing says the masses will never buy the product without compression adjustments from the convenience of the fork cap. No Comp == deficient product. Next!

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So pattonme, I have a somewhat exceptable configuration with sonic springs and fork oil (Matris rear shock, which improved things a lot).  I ordered these to try to get an improvement and also ordered some tools, getting ready to do a swap, but sounds like the swap may be no better than what I've got?  in which case, I'll just sell the Matris cartridges and take the loss.  Is that the deal?
 
 

Why can't left turners see us?

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Wow, just got a look at those graphs. So much for compliance.
 
How does your software do that simulation? Do you just feed in all the measurements from the shims and # of holes and diameters etc., then it gives you those curves?
 
i can take a small sample (0.1 milliliter) of blood, process to DNA and then using some expensive reagents, a fancy gadget + software ($18k worth of fancy) and in 2 hours tell you whether or not you have a 1 nucleotide change in a gene. hell, I can even change the genetics of a mouse (lots more money/time) ---
 
But all this stuff makes my head spin a bit.

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Wow. I've been following this thread since the beginning. But am very surprised of its current outcome.
 
I'm from the school of make your vehicle handle and stop well before you mess with the engine.
 
So, I was one of those who jumped in and purchased a Matris fork piston kit (the GVE-like version. The fully adjustable cart kit wasn't available yet) and their shock with the hydro preload adjust and installed them myself. So I have first hand experience with this brand. I am very pleased with the fit and finish of their products and it has, as everyone who has upgraded their suspension, transformed my bike completely. Its hard to believe that a company with so many brands and models of bikes that they cater to and a quality I have handled and experienced would let a mistake like that slide. Has anyone else installed and used this kit w/o dismantling it and found that it's performance to be sub-par?
 
I have no affiliation with Matris and paid full price for the kit through Paige at PJ'S parts. I would recommend the kit that I got to anyone who is confident enough to wrench on their own bike and doesn't want to spend $2k+ on Traxxions offerings.
 
 

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So pattonme, I have a somewhat exceptable configuration with sonic springs and fork oil (Matris rear shock, which improved things a lot).  I ordered these to try to get an improvement and also ordered some tools, getting ready to do a swap, but sounds like the swap may be no better than what I've got?  in which case, I'll just sell the Matris cartridges and take the loss.  Is that the deal? 

The Matris is totally fixable. First I am very eager for @randy2100 to chime in when he gets his forks put back on and has a chance to do some testing/tuning. He can revert to as-supplied in about an hour's worth of work. If he doesn't like my updates, well, I deserve the earful I guess. 
It occurred to me tonight/3am while working away on another "Patton special" for a forum member with *saintly* patience, that maybe the error was as simple as someone grabbing 0.2mm shims instead of 0.1mm. I wondered why the 'R' leg used 0.1 and the 'C' 0.2. Maybe this is a case of a mis-labeled bin or somebody just got careless. I'll run the numbers.
 
Splitting the cartridge isn't that hard and a set of replacement shims is like $10. I wouldn't abandon the otherwise very nicely made kit over this. I could have swapped in my pistons but the Showa actually flows modestly better as a base valve. Mine as the Mid would have spanked the Matris (3x more orifice area) and been significantly better (60%) than the Showa but I haven't gotten the jigs made to do final machining. The Matris Mid-valve had it been 'flipped over' would have been essentially equivalent to the Showa and thus performed vastly better.
 
 
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I updated the graphs with curves from a Traxxion and Racetech stack for the GSXR600 and also OEM. I also added a recompute of the Matris with the 0.2 shims replaced with 0.1 and the mid-valved flipped over. It helps for sure but still a long way to go.

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Bike is put back together, but due to thunderstorms this evening, it hasn't moved out of the garage. I'm a little bit concerned about the fork spring rate as it seems to be very aggressive compared to stock. I only get about 1/16" of sag when I sit on the bike! The spring is labeled 9.0 so what does this mean compared to the stock spring?

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it means 9N/mm rate or .92kg/mm. how heavy are you? Stock is .72'ish kg/mm. 150lb rider I would target 0.85, 180lb+ rider .90's, 230+ rider .95.
 
I'll assume you're measuring sag from full extension, yes? Can you show your measurements? There are HOWTO and videos on averaging measurements from push and let rise, and lift and let settle. But fork stiction really should be 5mm or less unless the forks are twisted. It's a 2-man job unless you've done the zip-tie method.
 
This is also where the 20mm of preload proves unhelpful. Aside from moving the spring perch down a slot (4mm worth) you can get another about 3 mm by taking off the black plastic spring 'spacer' and let the preload adjuster nest directly on the spring. I measured the preload thrice because it didn't make sense to put so much into the system from the get go. True, the stock FZ has almost 20mm but it has way too weak of a spring to start with.
 
Full extension (I use bottom of triple to fork dust seal lip generally)
Static sag (bike vertical and not on stands)
Rider sag
 
First check and bounce the front end with the axle just snug and the top triple clamp bolts loose. Do a quick stiction test - we don't care about actual sag just yet. If that checks out, torque the axle to spec and tighten the triple clamp. Then deal with measuring sag.
 

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I think the answer is that I have some stiction plus the rear is lowered as much as possible with the Ohlins shock. Front forks need to be raised in the triple clamp to compensate. Rear spring still seems much softer than front.

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Road review after two days of riding with the new forks: I love the stiffer front springs as brake dive is very minimized. This is my first motorcycle so I only have limited experience, but it's so much easier to brake hard going into a turn knowing the front end isn't going to bounce around. The damper seems fine and fully capable of handling the stiffer spring. I feel the high speed bumps in my seat rather than through the handlebar so @pattonme changes to compression dampening work.  One thing that I am going to adjust is to put the spring perch on the lowest setting as the higher spring rate and built-in preload cause the forks to ride higher than I would like.
[/img]Bike with upgraded forks

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I've noticed on my Martris springs that they need to be broken in. After a few months of riding it, it's much more compliant from when I first installed them. Also I had the preload adjusted all the way out in the beginning to set the sag appropriately. Now that the springs have settled, I've had the turn the preload in a few notches.

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Hi,
I joined this forum just so I can follow this discussion.Not much more info out there yet as it's a new kit. I have the same kit but for a Honda NC750X as I don't have an FZ-07. I haven't fitted it yet but I'm hoping I can tweak the kit or pay Matt to do the work for me. Hope you all don't mind me posting on your forum even though I don't own an FZ-07.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
PS. I'm located in the UK by the way. I'm a member of the UK NC700 forum (same user name) if it would be more appropriate to continue the discussion on there. Please let me know. Or send me a PM.
 

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I've noticed on my Martris springs that they need to be broken in.
 if the spring rates have softened in just a couple months, you'll be replacing them in a year. something else is going on. 
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Rick, "if the spring rates have softened in just a couple months, you'll be replacing them in a year. something else is going on."
That isn't necessarily true. If the springs are a reasonable close fit to the inside of the leg they will have a bit of friction until the outer surface of the coils polish. I have seen it before but modern manufacturing tends to make it less common. The amount they have to wear is tiny so you have to look pretty close. Because the wire is drawn, there tends to be longitudinal ridges on the wire as the dies wear from use. This is what usually polishs off. Same from springs that have the grain twisted too much as they are wound and tend to bow ( barrel) on compression.

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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I've noticed on my Martris springs that they need to be broken in.
 if the spring rates have softened in just a couple months, you'll be replacing them in a year. something else is going on. 
I'll keep an eye on it. Thanks for your concern. 
 
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Well, i guess that's possible. But those springs are surrounded by reasonably slippery fluid and the wire is likely far harder than anything inside those tubes. Been a while since having those springs out (their due for a fluid change), but in my Showa forks, i don't thing the springs touch anything between their mounts. And if the springs do rub anything inside my Andreani cartridge kit, they'll rub on a nylon collar (looks/feels like nylon, but might be LPE or something else) which will be far softer than the spring by a long shot - btw, the wire in those spring coils looks/feels perfectly smooth.
 
Nw, i'd believe that the piston and cartridge cylinder could take on a nice polish after some use and that would cut down on some stiction. And if new fork seals were used as well, those also could lose a little bite with time.
 
I can also believe (and have read), that just cause a spring is marked 9.0 or whatever, unless the finished spring has been measured carefully (probably not), there's gonna be some batch to batch error due to variations in the wire tempering etc. But I'd still assume any spring will be most consistent when new and not lose some of its uumph until a lot of work.
 
That would also suggest manufacturers to either use stiffer springs in valve trains than called for, or "age" (like good Scotch) the springs externally before installation.
 
 
 
 

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the Matris springs are cosmetically of very high finish. can't say how good the metallurgy is but in this day and age I can't imagine they'd screw that up. I wouldn't read too much into "breaking them in" not without some actual measurements and/or data that could control for external factors.

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Yes, don't read too much into "breaking then in" maybe it's the wrong choice of words. And like others have stated it might be the reduction of stiction that is making the fork more compliant.
 
What I really want to know is, value wise, how does this kit compare to the other adjustable offerings? Are the reb/comp adjustments noticeable or are they minute?
 
Thanks.

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hands down better than Andreani because mistake aside, it's a 4-piston system which is a significantly better platform than one with two. It's clearly better than mine on the cosmetic front, the convenience of no internal mods is nice to have, and the craftsmanship is very good. The rebound needle works as it should. The comp side is hard to say but that's more or less true of any Comp adjust. What people feel is the high-speed circuit and not the slow. Given the force curves of even the fixed version, you'll likely want to run it wide open. If I can get those values down some more, then the adjuster becomes useful.
 
I would love the opportunity to take a set of forks to a dyno operator and compare as-delivered vs various modifications vs my retrofit solution.
 
The value position boils down to how much it costs to fix the C leg. If I propose $130 (50 for pistons and shims, 60 for labor, and $20 for shipping) that puts the kit at 30% more than mine. Not to slit my own throat here, but yeah, I would consider it a strong buy even with the premium. I would use this Matris kit (albeit fixed) in my own bikes in a heart-beat, if mine hadn't already been upgraded.

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Praise indeed Pattonme. Now I have my MT07 deknackered , I am genuinely considering dumping the GVE's abd getting a cartridge setup of some sort.
 

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

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Pity there's no one in the UK who can do this work for me or I would have kept the kit. I might consider buying it again if they fix the issues mentioned and if someone else has got good results on my bike (NC750X). I'll keep a look out for further developments anyway.
 

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  • 3 months later...

So it sounds like we still haven't found the perfect cartridge kit for the MT-07 yet then? I've read the full review for the Andreani and Matris now, with the Matris sounding better but still not what we want... What other choices are there, or do we need to wait to see what ohlins have to offer?

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Actually there IS a perfect kit for the MT-07. Mine! ($4-500) and Traxxion's AK-20 ($1000).
 
The Andreani you can use as-is. The Matris you HAVE to fix. I wouldn't put any great hope in the Ohlins.

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If I lived in the States I'd probably consider something like yours, but being over in the UK I think I'd like an off the shelf option. I'll take a look at the traxxion then but it sounds a lot more expensive. Any point just upgrading the rear shock for now, or maybe the rear shock along with uprated fork springs/oil as a stop gap until more options come out?

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