Premium Member rowdy Posted August 11, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted August 11, 2015 @rowdy: Wow!! And you've replaced the mono with a Matris unit... Do you have the hydraulic preload installed or do you have the standard unit? I'm really interested to do a major upgrade to my suspensions, and Matris produce interesting and very good products. Let us know! etorty, I just have the standard unit. I never ride two up, so I really didn't see the need for the remote adjuster. It would be nice, but pushed the price a little over what I wanted to spend. Why can't left turners see us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 2-up is why I still have another bike. It came with a remote preload adjuster, and it sure is nice to just crank a handle. Can almost do it while riding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member rowdy Posted August 12, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted August 12, 2015 2-up is why I still have another bike. It came with a remote preload adjuster, and it sure is nice to just crank a handle. Can almost do it while riding. The basic KD doesn't come with a remote adjuster, so did you get another model? Why can't left turners see us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fflier9 Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 Could someone who has ordered these cartridges do a brief tutorial as they install them on their bike? My set should be here mid-sept (that's what they said) and I'm gonna try to do it myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 patience grass-hopper. The "expert" review will happen early next week. And then the installation write-up will regale all here with the precision photography, live commentary video, and of course witty, and insightful prose worthy of an award. No pressure, not one bit @randy2100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy2100 Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Since I promised photos, here are a couple: https://goo.gl/photos/oKXNs2LUADqRfgBS8 The short spring allows easy access to the lock nut. Also, it looks like extra preload adjustment is available by adjusting the spring perch location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etorty Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Sooooo nice! Thank you, randy2100! www.MT-Series.it Yamaha Official MT-Series Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member rowdy Posted August 13, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted August 13, 2015 Since I promised photos, here are a couple: https://goo.gl/photos/oKXNs2LUADqRfgBS8 The short spring allows easy access to the lock nut. Also, it looks like extra preload adjustment is available by adjusting the spring perch location. Those look super nice! Looking forward to an install report if it you have the inclination! Why can't left turners see us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I'm thinking yer still gonna have to compress the spring to get at that nut holding the cap. The preload adjuster likely moves that silver bit above the nut with a flange the size of the spring. What locks that lower collar in place? Wonder why there's an o-ring there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 it's not an o-ring, it's a wire clip. Notice he took the tension off the spring (well, looks like it has some slack) and moved the lower spring seat upward to expose the 3 grooves to set different levels of preload. It's actually a pretty smart system. Instead of fighting the spring at the cap end, you just remove the wire clip and let the spring go slack. Tighten the fork cap against the nut per the rebound needle setting, and then turn it upside down, grab the lower spring collar and compress the spring and hold it while you re-insert the wire clip. It's even more ingenious because you can use any standard length spring you want (within reason) whereas it seemed upon my earlier inspection of website pictures that they would have to source rather short springs. The caveat is that the ID of the spring has to be at least 24-25mm which probably isn't a problem (have to go measure what Sonic provides) AND you get a several inches long spring guide to boot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Ah, so the split in that ring is just hid on the back side. Nice way to give a bigger range of preload adjust - though that's usually better done with a different rate spring. So I guess that would be handy for spring removal, but will that lower seat/clip be accessible (might be a pita to pry that clip off and on with it in place even if you can put hands on it) w/o removing the entire "cartridge" to get at it. If not, considering the spring has to be out to measure the oil height, I don't see how that's gonna help. Even if my homemade spring compressor wouldn't work here, I'd just build another. Still can't picture in my head how the compression side works. My brain sometimes needs to actually "see" the bits to understand how things work. The nicest bit of this kit is not having to "modify" the bottom of the stanchion for installation. Kinda wishing I'd not pulled the trigger on the Andreani kit quite so soon. Hopefully Matris got the valving a bit more in the ballpark. From all my reading and the fact that guys are turning the adjusters full open on that Andreani kit, I'm still tempted to use that lighter fluid in both sides. That's what the Bonneville guys are doing and those bikes are closer to 1-1.5 turns out on both sides. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Yeah I didn't fully think that thru... You can't bleed a cartridge or arrive at proper fluid levels with the spring in place. So I guess the best way to characterize the 3 grooves is that you can cut a spring spacer to X length and if you want to change the "built in" preload (normally it's 10mm before any external adjusters are involved) you can alter it without having to cut new spacers. I use PVC which is very easy to find and incredibly cheap so I'll happily cut spacers new spacers even if just 3mm shorter... Or it's just that since this is a "bulk" made part, and that the spring length can vary for various applications, this was just the factory's way of keeping SKU count down. Yeah that's probably it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 So your thinking on the valves (let's just talk compression) - there is a fixed valve just above the holes at the bottom w/shim stack and another valve/piston on the piston with a one-way check to push the fluid at that lower valve? Then the needle adjuster opens a bypass for that one-way check valve in that upper valve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy2100 Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I'm not an expert at forks, but the spring is loose with full extension of the rod. Once the top cap is unscrewed from the fork, the lock-nut should be exposed above the spring. The kit didn't come with any other spring spacers so the first picture is the full guts with extra room above the spring to loosen the lock-nut and remove the cap. The second picture is just to show that there is even more possible spring preload adjustment by moving the spring perch to one of the other grooves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Well, that's interesting. That would mean that there is either no preload on the spring (probably not likely) or the preload will be created while screwing the cap into the fork - which is basically how the non-cartridge stocker works. Personally, I'd rather use a a tool to compress (and hold) the spring to get at the nut, than try to start those fine threads in the cap properly while fighting against a spring pushing back. Been there, done that, and it can be a royal pita. The normal cartridge set-up (as long as you have the compressor of course) is far easier to deal with. Hmm, what keeps it from topping out w/o coming off the spring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 So your thinking on the valves (let's just talk compression) - there is a fixed valve just above the holes at the bottom w/shim stack and another valve/piston on the piston with a one-way check to push the fluid at that lower valve? Then the needle adjuster opens a bypass for that one-way check valve in that upper valve? Sorta. The lower valve is very likely to be traditional. The upper 'sliding' piston I don't know what they did. If it weren't for the needle to do something useful it could be a piston with no shims whatsoever. What forced oil thru the lower piston is the fact that the damper rod it taking up volume, not any shim stack. For a needle to work in that direction you need the pop-off plate to be under a fair amount of pressure. I don't know what "fair amount" is quantified as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Hmm, what keeps it from topping out w/o coming off the spring? Since they were nice enough to retain the damper rod, the OEM top-out spring is what limits travel - no different from stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member rowdy Posted August 18, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted August 18, 2015 [attachment id=815" thumbnail="1] 8-) Any tips for the install would be greatly appreciated! Why can't left turners see us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 no instructions? Ok, here's mine: 0) send kit and stock forks to Matt with lots of money. let him do install. Just kidding!! 1) split forks, dump out old contents 2) replace bushings 3) slide top-out spring onto new assembly's damper rod, drop into fork uppers 4) join upper and lower fork parts, add bolt, install upper bushing, oil seal and snap ring 5) dump 1/2 of the oil into tube. pump upper tube up and down ~8 times, grab rebound rod and cycle it up and down for several minutes till there is no longer an air pocket at the top of the stroke (don't shoot oil into your eye) 6) set oil height with Motion-Pro oil syringe (or turkey baster) to 120mm 7) drop in spring fully extend fork and measure from spring to top of tube. add 10mm. then subtract length of fork cap. cut spring spacer to said length (if not already done *correctly* by matris 9) turn needle adjuster all the way OUT till lightly seated, back in 3 turns. 10) put thin (optional?) washer between spring and spacer and between spacer and fork cap (can't tell if needed from pic) 11) spin on fork cap till it seats. May have to compress spring by hand to get 'slack' to not fight the spring while spinning on. 12) turn nut on rebound rod back up to cap and tighten against each other 13) cross fingers 14) thread fork cap into fork upper 15) turn needle adjuster out 1.5-2 turns and pump forks. turn needle in all the way and notice change in behavior (on Reb leg it should be plainly obvious, C leg not so much). Turn needle back out to 1.5-2 turns 16) install forks on bike, install axle (important), install brakes (even more important) 17) bounce front end and see if it po-go's. shove on backend and compare rate of rise. Adjust Rebound till similar but the needle should not be bottomed, frankly shouldn't be less than 1 turn out. 18) put gear on, kiss love ones goodbye. Solute your emperor. Go ride. 19) go ride some more. wipe bugs from teeth and get ahold of your jump for joy delight emotions, and shet-eating grin. 20) find a circuit with nice, reasonably tight curves ideally with left/right transitions, varied pavement, the odd frost-heave or rippled section and a clean braking area 21) adjust Reb in at least 1/2 turn increments while noting (not imagining) any improvements or tradeoffs. Aim for stability especially when coming off brakes and tipping into corner (ie. coming off highway onto round-a-bout) 22) ride it that way for a couple days. see if you can find fault with setup. Make road-side adjustments for giggles 23) try your hand at adjusting Comp. do NOT mess with Rebound during this part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 that oil is supposedly 22.6 cSt. That's where I'd aim, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member rowdy Posted August 18, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted August 18, 2015 Thanks pattonme! I changed the springs earlier in the year, so I've done the basic remove/install, but wasn't sure about calculating oil amount or if there were any particular difficulties with the top out spring and end stroke hydro stop. Again... Thanks a ton Matt! BTW, where do I measure from for the 120mm? Why can't left turners see us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 where do I measure from for the 120mm? with the fork collapsed and damper rod down in and spring out, from the top of the stanchion to the top of the fluid - is what I've done with my showa usd and was what I was planning with the FZ's - when I git around to it.. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etorty Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 8-) Any tips for the install would be greatly appreciated! @rowdy: please, can you measure the length of the spring, before the "big work" Thank you in advance! www.MT-Series.it Yamaha Official MT-Series Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member rowdy Posted August 19, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted August 19, 2015 8-) Any tips for the install would be greatly appreciated! @rowdy: please, can you measure the length of the spring, before the "big work" Thank you in advance! 26cm uncompressed. Why can't left turners see us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etorty Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Thank you!!! www.MT-Series.it Yamaha Official MT-Series Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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