Premium Member rowdy Posted August 20, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted August 20, 2015 Okay... It looks like I'm gonna need a tool to hold the damper rod, while I unscrew it. Anyone (like pattonme got a source for such a tool that will fit the FZ-07? (Yamaha Part # 90890-01460). Why can't left turners see us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 http://racetech.com/page/id/70. The tapered rectangle thingy I bought off Amazon was made of aluminum and just rounded off the edges. a stout dowel pounded in will work (miserable to get back out though) and don't be shy about flambe'ing the bolt good till it smokes. But before you go all medieval on it, first try cranking in the preload with a cinch strap and using an industrial high-CFM impact wrench on it. Send Yamaha and Kayaba a letter of appreciation for their rigorous quality control practices and excellence in selecting tooling and component vendors. NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member rowdy Posted August 20, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted August 20, 2015 So the racetech tool is alu. Is that the one that sucked from ebay? Or is racetech a higher quality version? Why can't left turners see us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etorty Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Okay... It looks like I'm gonna need a tool to hold the damper rod, while I unscrew it. Anyone (like pattonme got a source for such a tool that will fit the FZ-07? (Yamaha Part # 90890-01460). @rowdy: I don't know the shape of the head of the damper rod of the MT (...FZ) -07, but take a look inside the stanchion. With my previous bike (a Virago XV250) I've changed the fork seals, and I've used a simple (home made) tool to hold the damper rod. You can see it in the pics. Hope can help... www.MT-Series.it Yamaha Official MT-Series Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 The tapered tool I bought for 18 bucks is definitely steel. This one http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005SUU0Y8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00 I'm still 2, maybe 3 weeks of weeks up on a ladder before getting to mine. I've seen others break that bolt free while using the spring pressure to hold the damper still. Might have ingersoll rand have a go at it this way 1st Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Guys, let's move the rest of this line of thought to a different thread http://fz07.org/post/52523/thread Moderators, please consider moving the last 3 posts over to ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I received @randy2100's kit earlier this week. Got a chance to take it apart this morning. Very nicely assembled and quality components. It's a full 4-piston setup and the pistons are very nicely done. Top shelf machining, and easily on par with Ohlins and Traxxion. I'd say an improvement on Racetech and a clear step up from Andreani. Seems our Continental friends think that if some Lock-Tite is good, a lot more must be that much better. There was a veritable pool of green around the base of the cartridge tube. The instructions call for re-using the OEM fluid-lock and I disagree. Fluid locks are just a bad idea and IMO rather silly in a cartridge system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Comp leg parts. The were nice enough to punch a C or R on the parts that threads into the cartridge tube. The damper-rod cum lower cartridge base is at least 2 pieces but I wasn't about to take it apart because I'm pretty sure it's pressed together which also explains the copious amount of green thread lock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Pistons. Unfortunately it uses the same sliding material as the Andreani, which means it holds it's shape so don't casually take it off unless replacing for real. I guess it's another European thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Fork cap disassembled. The machining is very nicely done. You can see the small 'lip' in the right collar which seats on the wire clip on the cartridge body to act as the lower spring seat. I didn't take apart the 'clicker' in the middle of the silver spring preload rod. It's a shaft with 4 grooves cut lengthwise so the spring-loaded ball bearing can 'click'. Wasn't going to tempt fate trying to get that back together without specialized tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Rebound leg's valving parts. Notice the shim on the left piston? They put an undersized shim to simulate a bleed hole. It leaves a LOT of room though. Instead of the 14mm I would have used a 15mm or cut a small groove across one of the walls. But as we'll see in the shim chart, they gave it a light stack already so why bother with the bleed? I could totally understand if they had put a "full strength" stack on there instead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 The rod and piston on the Reb side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Shim stacks. [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]Reb base[td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]Reb mid [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]pop-off[td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]pop-off [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]piston[td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]piston [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]14, 0.1[td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]17, 0.2 [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]17, 0.1 (3)[td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]16, 0.2 [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]10, 0.2[td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]14, 0.2 [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]12, 0.2 [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]pop-off [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]10, 0.2 [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px] [td style=border:1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);padding:3px]8.5, 0.2[/tbody] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy2100 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 The rod and piston on the Reb side. So how do adjusters control compression and rebound damping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 behind that hole in the side, is a spring-loaded needle. I didn't feel like trying to take that end off but if you want me to I can. turning in the adjuster pushes on the needle till it closes the hole that runs axially. I'll snap a picture of the end so you can see it. The rebound side is bog standard. The comp side they put a shim stack on the top side instead of a pop-off so that they could generate enough pressure to force fluid thru the middle and past the needle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy2100 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I couldn't tell from the pictures, so does the bolt holding the piston and shim stack have a bleed hole that is controlled by the needle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etorty Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Well... no news? Really nothing?? www.MT-Series.it Yamaha Official MT-Series Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy2100 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I could post a pic of the bike hung from the handlebars with no front suspension... Shipping is delaying putting the bike back together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etorty Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Ouch!! I hope for you that the shipment will arrive soon... It's really a bad thing to have the bike stopped in the garage... :( www.MT-Series.it Yamaha Official MT-Series Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 it's my fault. Well and Matris'. I took the C leg apart a half dozen times trying to figure out why it wouldn't compress except under VERY heavy pressure and no faster than crude oil at the North Pole. Basically zero bump compliance - might as well be rigid. After many rounds of shim arrangements, piston swaps, and corresponding simulation which at first I didn't believe, turns out the software was correct. The Comp configuration is totally F'ed. The Andreani guys are shim-stack savants by comparison. The orifice in the base piston is fine in a standard compression arrangement or in rebound, but just like the guys over at Andreani, they kept the same configuration for the mid-valve and thus tried to cram 2/3 of the displaced oil thru an orifice designed for at most 1/2 that. The force curve goes exponential at high shaft rates (1" bump at 50mph - so not exactly motocross whoops). The stock shim stack modeled at well over 3x the shaft force than what a Racetech or Traxxion setup would produce. Then they put a VERY heavy shim stack on the base piston. To get something approximating the right curve I had to put a Showa piston at the mid-valve (50% more valve area), and then calculated I would have to put just 1 light shim on the base valve to make it work. Since the flow rates would lift that shim a lot that was a recipe for a permanently bent shim. So I put a Showa piston in the base and put in a moderate stack. Like the Andreani boys, they should have had the sense to design a flipped-over mid-valve piston. It wouldn't have solved the underlying problems but the error wouldn't have been so egregious. Now when I cycle the system it actually moves! And the force curves are rational. Obviously the real test is to ride it and see. Maybe it's a tad light, but I will say this - not having to split the forks is a VERY nice benefit. 1 bolt and the whole thing drops out. If/When you buy, make sure to split the cartridge, remove the Lock-tite at least at the base valve and make yourself a pin-wrench to stick into the bleed holes so you have something to hold on to. See the 2 handled 'ring' tool in this picture http://www.traxxion.com/Fork-Service-Tool-Kit/. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 By comparison the Reb leg was reasonably sane and can be used as-is. Of note, they built the system so that you get 20mm of spring preload even with the adjuster all the way out. That's 2x the typical baseline and IMO a mistake. You can move the wire clip from the middle position downward and reduce it by 4mm. They really should have cut more grooves into the cartridge tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Setting needles - I wondered why there were no instructions about this subject. Under practically every cartridge system out there you have to set the needle to say 3'ish turns in the fork cap and then thread it on till it seats. This is the needle reference point. Matris instead designed their rebound rod and cap to seat independently of the needle which is a handy touch and prevents the all-too common mistake you get with the others. So seat the cap, then when you want to adjust needle, turn it all the way in till the adjuster stops and that's your 'zero'. Count clicks out. At some number of turns out the adjustment does nothing since it's recessed off the plunger that drives the needle. I should have measured the thread pitch but it's probably around the 5 turns point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 so the same problems - an attempt at a BPF set-up but with pistons that are really too small. Guess it's all a compromise. At least the Andreani isn't a complete hydraulic lock-up out of the box. The bulk of this year's house rehab/painting is nearly done so I'll have time to get at my Andreani cartridges in the next couple weeks. I'll let ya know how my experiment with lower viscosity fluid in that C side works. And then I'll be learning how to flip that valve over for next year. Man, my Aprilia's fork fluid is also due for a swap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Not so much 'BPF' but trying to pursue "adjustable from fork cap" and apparently not even running a simulation. Here are some graphs to visually show how far off they were. The Matris 'R' is the basevalve compression stack that's on the R leg. The baseline is what I use when building stacks. 'Repaired' is C leg with both pistons replaced with Showa and the stacks altered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Will have to look at those graphs at home as IT here blocks your images for some reason. So it's not the compression side that's bucking the flow on compression, but the rebound side? I don't get it. They machine all of these nice eye candy parts but don't get the basics of their profession right? I was always sorta under the impression that when you have only rebound adjustability, that making an R adjustment will also affect the compression as well. Is this not the case? I don't miss not having compression adjustments on my Showa fork. Sounds like both of these set-ups would have been better off with just that one adjustment. On another note, the piston rod on my Showa has a threaded bit up near the cap with a locknut. When the rebound adjuster is zeroed, if everything is indexed properly, there's a dot on the adjuster that lines up with a dot on the cap. Ordinarily that lock nut is left alone. But if it's messed with, it's a bit of a process to get the dots to match back up again at zero turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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