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pattonme

All things Gold Valve Emulator (GVE)

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pattonme
Kickstarting discussion and user reports of their experiences tuning these devices to include the Matris and Ricor. I think we should try to keep it mostly practical (eg. I used the blue spring, 3 turns, 15w oil and got XXX results) as opposed to delving deep into theory unless it's germane.
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gtmn
so no one wants to talk about the little magic valves
if you don't own that set you may consider it
they really work
 
yellow springs 3 turns in
the entire stroke of the fork is smooth
not bottoming out with the new springs and
no hard impacts
the fork just sucks up the bumps no matter what it is

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pattonme
@gtmn, did you remove the fluid "cup" aka the hydro-lock device from the bottom of the damper rod? I believe the instructions say to do so but I don't remember.

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gtmn
traxxion damper kit is all new stuff top to bottom
so ya it all came out
I still have no idea what that little plastic piece is
or why it has a spring
the other bike that we drilled the stock damper rods I did leave them in
it seemed to center up the damper rod and that was about it
id doesn't cover any holes or any thing
 
for the record the gold valve had to be slightly modded to fit the oe damper rod in the second bike
but the guy likes the way it feels

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gregjet
I have had them for a while but looks like I might finally get around to the forks today. Glad this thread was started. Unless I can see a good reason to remove the bottom hydraulic ramps, I will leave them in, but I may mod them after I have seen them. As said above they help centre the rods when installing. I will post when I have installed them.
Having said that if you are in the US I think Pattonme's way is probably better than GV's.

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pattonme
@gregjet, I would actually recommend removing them. they put the fork into hydro-lock when you get deep into the stroke. The plastic "fills" up the area under the upper tube and flow is reduced to ~nil. If you're crashing hard into the fork bottoms I think something else is rather amiss in your setup and how you ride.
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howworkclutch
A wee but askew from the topic...
 
I hit up Ricor about thier 41mm trinkets: crickets. I've heard good things about these from the Harley crowd but that's like saying "I should compete in the special Olympics because everyone seems so happy"
 
No offense to special people intended.

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pattonme
> from the Harley crowd
 
yeah well, consider the source. The only bike AFAIK that doesn't have complete, total crap that even the 1960's would be embarrassed over is the SPORTSTER 1200 STREET TRACKER.
 
I don't know of anyone who's done a GVE vs Ricor back to back comparo.

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howworkclutch
Somewhere in my junk box is a circuit I designed for a raspberry pi computer. It's an ADC logger that accepts input from two inexpensive homebrewed linear potentiometers and logs what it sees.
 
Basically: it's a data logger for suspension movement.
 
It started out as an electronic musical instrument experiment but showed promise as a data logger.
 
I had always wanted to buy up all the various suspension valves and test them, but that's not a cheap endeavor. Maybe someday.
 
Anyway I should dig that thing out and mount it on the yam someday. Eventually I'll upgrade the suspension and it will be nice to have before/after data to compare.
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gregjet
Pattonme,
Are yoou sure about the bottom "ramp". I had a good look at it now it's out and it is not only a ramp but appears to be a dymanic valve. Haven't seen this setup not even in my BMWF800R.
The nylon piece has a spring in it and floats to some extent. It also has a set of channels in it between the damper rod and the piece. It looks to me like as the stantion begins to cover it the fluid flow is restricted ( same as usual in a simple hydraulic ramp, but as the fluid flows it flows under the bottom of the "valve" and lifts it. As it hits bottom the fluid below looks like it would act as a hydraulic cushion. Haven't tried it out ( should be easy to do won't waste much oil). I'll let you know. BTW I also have the gapeing lower bush. I will find the appropiate thread and add my comment about the Aussie model.
The gold valves I was sent won't fit the tops of the rods. I have had them too long to ethically send them back so I just made a set of cups to go between the rod tops and the GV. Gives me bigger orifaces to play with anyway so tuning will be more controllable hopefully. Not going to put them back together for a while as it will take ages to get my new bushes so the yammy is out of action til them. Lucky I have the Husky still.

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pattonme
I accidentally held onto @Montana07's damper rods so I will revisit the matter tonight. But if memory serves as the pressure spikes at the end of travel, the pressure overcomes the very modest spring and lifts it off the floor as you mentioned. Since the grooves are on the inside bore instead of the base, this would imply oil needs to escape the center of the tube and fill underneath it.
 
In any event the fork essentially goes into almost hydro-lock so you don't smash into the bottom. But everything I've read says to remove it. If you're hitting bottom you're doing something very wrong. And especially for those who push the pace, the extra 1/2"+ of properly moving suspension (instead of locked out) is worth it.
 
 

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gtmn
yup don't know what its for but the bottom of the damper rod bolts to the bottom of the fork and the white piece is solid on the bottom
so don't think anything flows past it seems more to center the rod then anything else
just a guess and im really dumb so I could be wrong
the reason it has a hard hit is due to the velocity of the oil trying to pass the holes in the bottom of the damper rod
lots of good vids out there on damper rod forks
 
also I had to sand down the very small edge on the bottom of the valve to fit the Yamaha rod
put it in the end of a drill and spun it with emery cloth till it fit ( just the small lip ) be very carefull
only took like 20 mins
if you are trying to install valves in factory for then you know what I mean if not you wont understand till you do

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bmwpowere36m3
Isn't it a bottoming cone… crude maybe, but usually is there to prevent metal on metal contact in most situations. I did a bunch of work on my dirt bike forks, so I know its an essentially part of the design on those. And there are tuners who modify them and come up with some really ingenious designs (like, MX-Tech "huck valve", speed-sensitive, basically another damping circuit with pistion and shims). Granted your using ALL and more of your stroke, frequently, when riding hard off-road.
 
I don't know what standard protocol is with road bikes…

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pattonme
yes it's a bottoming cone but it "prevents" metal to metal contact by virtue of approximating hydrolock. The plastic fits fully inside the upper tube so there is no mechanical bumper as it were. There is no centering action either. The bottom just sits on the floor and the underside is heavy tapered. The max the cone can float off the bottom is ~1mm.
 
2015-06-04%2006.55.44.jpg
2015-06-04%2006.56.58.jpg

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gregjet
As you have pointed out Pattonme, if you have your forks down there you are probably badly setup, or in a bit of trouble ( whole bike wise). I am a fan of the hydro ramp from my dirt bike days, where you visit it often. The stretching to, but not at infinity, end of the stroke is what gives the "bottomless" feeling. If you have a shock dyno and reckon it is bottoming anyway with this dynamic valve, I can always turn down a couple of static cone ramps. Square bumps of silly size are not unknown on Aussie roads and vicious bottoming can occur on occasion ( had it happen on my Husky TR650 and it has 190mm of travel) so I am inclined to have some sort of hydraulic ramp for the road.

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gtmn
 see I told you I wasn't real bright

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thomascrown
I'm contemplating riding my butt up to Racetech and having them install gold valve emulators on completely stock forks. The springs are plenty stiff for my style of riding, I just need the high speed damping fixed. Every pothole is like getting your hand hit with a baseball bat.

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gregjet
As Pattonme points out, the harsh front end is most likely a factor of the effective compression damping caused by the smaller than optimium compression holes. I am 84kg and the springs are definitely too soft ( even for the bike alone weight by the sag). This points to the bike being aimed at the commuter market as the bike will feel "more comforatble" in city riding as it is more "plush". Depending on your weight you may find if they fit just valves and not springs the front ends up feeling soggy.
BTW I pulled out my springs at 300km and one of them was not straight at that mileage . Actually dragged on the insides of the fork. That is BAD spring manufacture. I hope the valve springs are better made...
 I have stiffened my springs by cutting 4 coils off and reseating them. Still waiting for my new bottom bushes so can't confirm if that is enough yet. Should stiffen them about 13%. Still have plenty of coil space let to coil bind.
 
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gregjet
Finally got my new bushes . The All Balls Racing kit has a heap of extra stuff as it is aimed at a range of forks, not just one.
Comparing the bushes and the rest ID of the new ones is the right one as Pattonme points out. Gap is now correct. So should be no ovaling.
 
Before:
IMGP0653.jpg
 
After:
IMGP0660.jpg
 
Put some external preload fork caps on ( once I get the right preload height I might make new stack tubes and go back to the stock caps).
 
Shortened the springs about 4 coils and reseatted them. Should be about 14% stiffer.
 
Gold Valve emulators:
Yellow springs ( was recommended )
2 turns preload
Extra 2mm hole in the small movement plate ( I can add or solder up if I need to tune them more) to make them a bit more small bump compliant)
The GVE's sit in an adapter I had to make up for them as they didn't supply them ( they should have as the GVE's don't fit in the top of the rods otherwise)
New spring spacer tubes from stainless as I couldn't get any aluminium ( I will try again later)
5 mm extra preload adjusted from standard spring/spacer/washer height.
The GVE instructions now recommend 15W oil which is new . All my previous ones have been for 10W.
Stock rebound hole with the inside edges smoothed.
"rebound" holes as per instructions 6x10mm and smoothed.
Bottom hydraulic stops fitted.
Static bike weight sag is now 25mm
Forks set about 3mm up in the clamps.
 
The rear is nitron shock and raised 25mm link.
Will ride it today hopefully and see how it went but I have a sad lack of decent testing roads in this place.
 
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pattonme
> New spring spacer tubes from stainless as I couldn't get any aluminium
 
shit man, PVC pipe does the business.

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gregjet
Couldn't get it in the right size PVC in this tiny town. Only lived here a couple of years and they had floods just before it got here, so I am still finding the businesses I want ( if they exist here) and when I do they almost immediately move out of their temporary premises and I can't find them.
For spacers, Al is my material of choice though.
Had some spare Ti I used once but I just happened to have some. Might try making some shaped carbon fibre ones one of these days. Have an idea for a soft hydraulic/pneumatic valved bump stop using the upper chamber with tuneable compression ratio. One day... Suzuki DRZ400SM's have an interesting compression chamber at the top that got me interested.
Didn't get to ride it as it poured yesterday and today fog.
 

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gregjet
Rode it finally, though not a serious work out. At least at speed and twisty and bumpy enough for give me an idea.
Small bump compliance front is now pretty good but will slacken off the preload a touch.
Rear is still too stiff so I will slacken that preload a little as well.
Turns in WAAAAAy better. Still has a bit too much resistance to tight turns. May be the tyre as well. I have the S23's and I think they are a little too harsh for the road. No where near the weave or wobbleys that was there before.
I am surprised that the 15w isn't more harsh. They must have modded the valves a fair bit since I last used them.
Either way, pretty close to right and the fine tuning will get me good and close. Completely different feeling bike. Much more planted and doesn't resist tip in as much. Remember I have the rear raised and the ECU reflashed so some of that will be rear control and smoother throttle.

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ratlab
i got the traxxion kit with preload caps-i have done about 5 bikes with the racetech springs and emulators,but this time i didn't touch anything and used the traxxion settings for weight,riding style etc.i went with 10 wt. fork oil because traxxion said with their rods i could use a thinner fork oil than i usually do.i have a ohlins rear shock and i dropped the forks 5mm.i like this setup-closer than i thought it would be.the compression is good,but the rebound is better than the usual racetech setup with stock damper rods.i put dunlop Q3's on and the sharper profile really helps. the front seems better than the rear even with the ohlins-,maybe the lack of a linkage in the rear shock?
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pattonme
> the rebound is better than the usual racetech setup with stock damper rods.
 
You can be sure Traxxion didn't use an awl to make the rebound holes. (see pogo thread)
 
> maybe the lack of a linkage in the rear shock?
 
Very much so. I don't know if it's truly a packaging thing, this recent fad with no-linkage shocks, but the results are frequently less than great. It's right royal to get right. KTM's been doing it for decades and it's still their sore spot.

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gregjet
Errrr... the MT HAS a linkage rear shock. I even bought an aftermarket adjusting link for it. So does Sally's KTM 690 Duke ( a particularly wierdly tapering one which is why it took so long to get a lower link from Kouba as it was so wasteful to machine).

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