Performance Exhaust Rant / Discussion

[No Hater]

Hey....If I was the only one on the block (or even 1 of 10) that was making exhausts for the FZ, I would charge $1k just because I know people would pay that much.

[howworkclutch]

the thread title is "Performance Exhaust Rant / Discussion" 
it is what it is. have fun with it.

I know, but you keep saying the same thing over and over and over.... WE GET IT! Just keep beating that dead horse.

lol c'mon now thats what rants are. 
i wouldn't give akropovic $3 for a custom built dead-horse-beating-pipe. 1.25 is all i'd ever spend. anyone who pays that much for a pipe to beat dead horses has got to be off their meds.
 

[aeisan]

you missed my point but thats ok. i like typing. 
i'm not questioning the demand for pieces of pipe that connect to an fz07 exhaust port. i'm questioning the cost. if there was a clear shortage of pipes i could see why they would be so expensive.
 
but there is no shortage of pipes. there aren't even a lot of fz07's in the wild. the demand is not high. the costs should not be high. its a frikken piece of pipe.
 
if you bought a pipe you're inclined to believe you've done the right and proper thing. but surely some part of you thinks "damn that really is an expensive piece of pipe. and its not much different that the top-rail of my fence"
 

Just a piece of pipe?  Ha!  Do you know anything about the real cost?  Anything at all?   
Material cost is probably, at best, 1/3 to 1/2 the total cost.  You're not paying for a piece of pipe, you're paying for the piece of pipe, the equipment that went into putting mandrel bends or fine TIG welds into it, the engineering behind it (and yes, sir, there is a large amount of complexity in how those pipes are designed, from thermodynamics to gas dynamics and beyond), the drafter that drew up the fabrication drawings, the labor that went into making it, the sales and marketing force behind selling it, the overhead that pays the wages of the receptionist and to keep the corporate lights on, and most importantly to the seller - the margin they make on top of all that.  So no, I never once thought "damn that really is an expensive piece of pipe. and its not much different that the top-rail of my fence" because I know full well there is a LOT more to it than that.  
 
This is by no means a challenge to your intelligence, so please don't take it that way, but I find it very hard to believe if I hired you to design an exhaust for my bike that you could come anywhere close to the results I would see if I bought an exhaust from the likes of Akrapovic or Yoshimura - and to be completely fair and honest even with my engineering background neither could I.  My point is simply this...  Their sheer experience in the industry alone is worth money to me, let alone the engineering prowess each of them posses.  If you would like to dispute my perception, please by all means send me your resume and prove me wrong.  
 
If you do want a prime example of a guy that CAN match wits with the big dogs, look up Marthy.  I haven't seen him on here in a while (he seems more active on the FZ-09 forum), but I'm sure he can tell you how it's done.  If I recall, his system is a good bit lower in price (please notice I purposefully did not call it cheaper) that the Akra or Yoshi systems, but it still runs around $525.  Why?  Surely not because of material costs.  If I had to guess, I'd say primarily because of lower overhead and lower margins, but i don't presume I know the extent of either.  But that brings up another point...  Part of what I expect to be paying for is the time spent researching all of this.  Even if I could build a system myself for a lot less cost, I value my time greatly and would rather pay more of what I do have (money) than what I don't have (time).  
 
I'm all for intelligent banter back and forth, but as was pointed out earlier all we hear is the same thing over and over again.  You guys have fun, I'm done with this one.  I've exhausted all I really care to say ha.  Good day!

[fooschnickens]

All I gotta say about this thread:
 

[Kwaipuak]

you missed my point but thats ok. i like typing. 
i'm not questioning the demand for pieces of pipe that connect to an fz07 exhaust port. i'm questioning the cost. if there was a clear shortage of pipes i could see why they would be so expensive.
 
but there is no shortage of pipes. there aren't even a lot of fz07's in the wild. the demand is not high. the costs should not be high. its a frikken piece of pipe.
 
if you bought a pipe you're inclined to believe you've done the right and proper thing. but surely some part of you thinks "damn that really is an expensive piece of pipe. and its not much different that the top-rail of my fence"
 

Just a piece of pipe?  Ha!  Do you know anything about the real cost?  Anything at all?   
Material cost is probably, at best, 1/3 to 1/2 the total cost.  You're not paying for a piece of pipe, you're paying for the piece of pipe, the equipment that went into putting mandrel bends or fine TIG welds into it, the engineering behind it (and yes, sir, there is a large amount of complexity in how those pipes are designed, from thermodynamics to gas dynamics and beyond), the drafter that drew up the fabrication drawings, the labor that went into making it, the sales and marketing force behind selling it, the overhead that pays the wages of the receptionist and to keep the corporate lights on, and most importantly to the seller - the margin they make on top of all that.  So no, I never once thought "damn that really is an expensive piece of pipe. and its not much different that the top-rail of my fence" because I know full well there is a LOT more to it than that.  
 
This is by no means a challenge to your intelligence, so please don't take it that way, but I find it very hard to believe if I hired you to design an exhaust for my bike that you could come anywhere close to the results I would see if I bought an exhaust from the likes of Akrapovic or Yoshimura - and to be completely fair and honest even with my engineering background neither could I.  My point is simply this...  Their sheer experience in the industry alone is worth money to me, let alone the engineering prowess each of them posses.  If you would like to dispute my perception, please by all means send me your resume and prove me wrong.  
 
If you do want a prime example of a guy that CAN match wits with the big dogs, look up Marthy.  I haven't seen him on here in a while (he seems more active on the FZ-09 forum), but I'm sure he can tell you how it's done.  If I recall, his system is a good bit lower in price (please notice I purposefully did not call it cheaper) that the Akra or Yoshi systems, but it still runs around $525.  Why?  Surely not because of material costs.  If I had to guess, I'd say primarily because of lower overhead and lower margins, but i don't presume I know the extent of either.  But that brings up another point...  Part of what I expect to be paying for is the time spent researching all of this.  Even if I could build a system myself for a lot less cost, I value my time greatly and would rather pay more of what I do have (money) than what I don't have (time).  
 
I'm all for intelligent banter back and forth, but as was pointed out earlier all we hear is the same thing over and over again.  You guys have fun, I'm done with this one.  I've exhausted all I really care to say ha.  Good day!

Going to have to agree with this. I lived in Asia, the land on knock offs and stuff made for cheap. There were so many dirt cheap exhausts that were basically just noise makers. They would rust, corrode, come apart, unpack, break seals, lose power on a dyno etc etc. They were just there to look cool and make the bike louder because someone knew they could pump this crap out and it would be bought. Real manufacturers charge higher prices for the R&D, materials used and the proper machines to make them. A noise maker was fine on my little scooter, not on any real bike I owned.

[batscat]

I don't have old or new money I have medium.
I win.
 
If you can't pay don't play.(or comment with the I'm wiser then you attitude)
 
Just makes you look sad.

[rotaryryan24]

I was staying clear of this one but I thought I would share some info. When I built my exhaust for my bike, there was almost $350 in materials alone. $150 for a decent quality muffler, and $200 for the highest quality stainless steel tubing I could source. But once you go farther into details you have a $3500 TIG welder, $200 bottle of argon (welding gas), $1000 in welding supplies and safety equipment, $2500 pipe bender, 21 years of learning the trade and over 30 hours of design and building.
This is why exhaust systems cost so much. When done right exhaust systems should last the life of the vehicle. Let's say on average owner will keep a bike for 5 years. It comes out to $1.82 a day for a $1000 exhaust system. I don't know about you but I would rather wake up with a good sounding exhaust than a cup of coffee any day. Sadly this world is extremely expensive, but like @crazycracka501 said you can't take your money with you.
Would I buy a $1000 exhaust system, I really don't know. Luckily I have never have had to make that decision and hopefully never will.
 

[Lusiphur]

the M4 is not that expensive, sounds great and looks great
 
Hell, I bought this bike, put a decent amount of mods into it, then sold it less than a year later so I took a loss.
I don't regret a penny spent on it and enjoyed the bike a ton.
 
If you don't want to spend the money don't.

[gregjet]

OK My few cents worth ( the real advantage of Australia going to decimal currency in 1966 was so we could post that on US forums...even though online forums or internet hadn't been invented or even thought of yet)
NO current pipe available for the MT07 yet is designed for max performance. It has a 270/450 degree firing pulse crank so the pulses will be exactly wrongly timed to allow proper tuned length tuning.
A 2 into 1 cannot work at max engine efficency. You have to have 2into2. ie discrete pipes.
You can get an improvement in output by replacing the pipes as the stock ones are design to shut the bike up and catalyze the gas, not improve performance, at as cheap a price as possible. It will be small but it will be there.
I really like the uninformed comments about the length of the pipe. This is a relatively low rev peak HP bike. That means that the tuned length will be comparatively LONG ( the higher the revs the shorter the pipe tuned length). If you want a short pipe on this bike because it looks goos , then you want LESS HP.
I DO have a changed exhaust. I bought a Akra carbon even though it is a 2 into to one. Why. First because it weighs a LOT less. ie increase in acceleration due to deceased mass ( simple F=ma). Second because I like my motorcycles to be a light as possible to improve braking and handling . And 3 because it got the required length by use of a snail section which I like as an elegant engineering soultion. The improvement in torque ate lower revs hasn't hurt either. However I would have bought a GPR GPE model for the MT07 if it had been available as it is cheaper, as well made, and has a nonrestrictive can type cat. It is also the "correct" length and offends the sensibilities of the short pipers. Still, even if it was a tuned long pipe, it will only have a real effect at or near the tuned max HP revs where few of us manage to ride the bike EXCEPT on a track.

[pattonme]

there you go @gregjet confusing people with facts again. spoilsport! ;-)

[Lusiphur]

Grgjet needs to be banned
Bringing logical discussion to an internet argument just can't be allowed!!!!!!!
 

[norcal616]

Choosing the right exhaust is like the blue and black dress or white and gold dress that stopped the internet...

[gregjet]

I never let fact influence MY judgement!

[gregjet]

Hey! I can get a rant too. Mine is the 2into 1 exhaust. You guys can have your own rants...
It's a sore point for me because I discovered it when I was racing a VTR250 in Production where the class rules said change the exhaust only from the junction of the pipes back. The VTR ( vtwin 90/270deg crank like ours) joined the two pipes before the junction so all the 4's and parallel twin 180 and 360deg cranks could get a proper exhaust and I couldn't. In place where the rules allowed free exhaust mods they could get over 30hp but the best we could get with the std headers was 25hp. Racing against CBR250RR's with 45hp was seriously hard work even with two thirds of the weight.

[pattonme]

@gregjet, it made you a better rider. and next time a better reader of the rule book. Successful winners might have talent, but they have even better rule-book parsing mechanic. And one who can cheat and not get caught. ;-) Like welding in a divider as far up as the "joint" was to separate the flows even if outwardly it looked like they still were combined.
 
Yeah I'm not much impressed with all the exhausts out there for the -07. Except for Akro (and was it one of the SC models?) Arrow, they cheaped out on the engineering and didn't bother to address the need for volume. Stubby headers and a standard can slapped on the end. The OP does have a point; none of these so-called solutions merit the premium price demanded.

[ryan4130]

Maybe the bike model is too young and is at a low price point so manufacturers didn't bother to take risks putting expensive R&D into it. As the bike becomes more popular and more model generations come out, hopefully that will change. And sooner the better

[gregjet]

Pattonme, A divider wouldn't help unless I could have cut the "collector" off. The "collector' was way too narrow and the divider would have made 2 "D" shaped, too narrow cross-sections. Hardly conducive to decent gas flow. The back pipe was WAYYY too short to the collector anyway. The pipes had to be 16" longer before the muffler ( low power peak rpm). It did however end up with Spada dual valvesprings ( same motor and same HONDA model designation) instead of the valve munching single ones.
It's not about cheating though. It's about pushing to the very limits of the written rules . You should have seen my solution to the "no airbox modification but snorkel may be modifies or removed" rule. One of the reasons I went racing was exactly to become a better rider. I knew my riding was limited but you don't realize HOW limited until you get on the track with real racers and a chance to experiment with the pointy end on the machine and technique. I sooooo miss racing. No track here.
This is the VTR. To get it even looking like that was an exercise in rule pushing ( and it weighed 110kg and that was before LiFePO batteries were available.)

 
Ryan the basics of exhaust physics should tell a pipe designer that 90/270deg exhaust pulses should not go into the same collector. Makes me question the design philosophy of the aftermarket manufacturers. That was until I started seeing comments on forums about how ugly the long pipe ones look... They can't win. People are more worried about how the bike looks than how it performs. They will buy a "pretty" pipe instead of a "right" one. And spend a thousand on a exhaust, and baulk at spending $800 on a shock and a couple of hundred on forks upgrade which will have more effect on the overall performance of the bike ( especially the MT07).

[aeisan]

Ryan the basics of exhaust physics should tell a pipe designer that 90/270deg exhaust pulses should not go into the same collector. Makes me question the design philosophy of the aftermarket manufacturers. That was until I started seeing comments on forums about how ugly the long pipe ones look... They can't win. People are more worried about how the bike looks than how it performs. They will buy a "pretty" pipe instead of a "right" one. And spend a thousand on a exhaust, and baulk at spending $800 on a shock and a couple of hundred on forks upgrade which will have more effect on the overall performance of the bike ( especially the MT07).

So true.  
 
Part of why I went with the M4 for now is that I at least wanted a good sound.  Of the options available, it was the cheapest out there and to me each design was similar enough the performance differences would be negligible.  I got the M4 knowing full well I'd be replacing it with a better system somewhere down the line.  That system does not exist yet, but I hope it does soon.  In the mean time, at least my bike sounds nice! 
 
Roughly adding things up, I've put this much into the bike so far:
 
Exhaust: $400
Fender Eliminator: $100
Bars: $200
Rearsets: $425
EJK: $225
Levers: $200
Mirrors: $50
Sliders $80
Indicators: $20
Paint: $100 (I haven't used any just yet, but I did procure it)
----------------------
TOTAL $1,800
 
That's without having done any suspension work yet and planning for a new exhaust that will likely be in the $800-1000 range, at least.  Plus I still have a few more cosmetic mods lined up.  So I'll likely be putting close to $4,500 into the bike before all is said and done, and that is conservative.  It's highly likely I'll go north of that number.  That's over half the cost of the original bike, and you know what?  I don't feel bad about it one bit! 
 
My philosophy on performance mods is that I like to get a good feel for the baseline of the bike first.  I like to know where the strengths and weaknesses are, so I can make a better judgement on where I want to go with it.  Plus, I think mentally it helps validate why I spent so much on them ha... Feeling how much better the bike got.  
 
 
 
 
 
 

[norcal616]

Turbo kit??? Hehehe

[pattonme]

@aeisan You forgot the 200-section rear tire, LED under-lights, and extended swing-arm; chromed and polished of course. Not only does it add to resale value, but it'll corner as well as a freight train on standard gauge rails, and the swing-arm flex will help compensate for the rigid shock valving.

[vertigo]

Who'll be the first FZ-07 darksider?

[aeisan]

@aeisan You forgot the 200-section rear tire, LED under-lights, and extended swing-arm; chromed and polished of course. Not only does it add to resale value, but it'll corner as well as a freight train on standard gauge rails, and the swing-arm flex will help compensate for the rigid shock valving.

Ha...  Sure, whatever floats your boat.  I like to actually ride my bikes and not just once a week to bike night! 

[howworkclutch]

 People are more worried about how the bike looks than how it performs. They will buy a "pretty" pipe instead of a "right" one. And spend a thousand on a exhaust, and baulk at spending $800 on a shock and a couple of hundred on forks upgrade which will have more effect on the overall performance of the bike ( especially the MT07).

I'm currently in talks with Ford to get Yamaha badges for F-150 trucks.  Ford is all for it. Yamaha's unofficial statement was "wtf is with americans?"
 
I thought Toyota might want to get a piece of this action, but they're response was "wtf is with americans?"
 
Foreigners and their crazy logic.
 

[howworkclutch]

and on a more serious note....
 
does anyone know when the valves are opening on this bike? a pair of pipes that make power would be dead-simple to have made at the local-yocal muffler shop.

[gregjet]

I have been trying to get the Exhaust valve openings for a while with no luck. I will degree it a some stage in the future but that's a while away yet. Please post if you find out. Big problem is the Aussie model may have different cams because of the detune.
If I get a bigger bee in my bonnett about the 2 into 1 pipes I may do it earlier, but I only use the bike on the road so not as important to get prime max HP.