Performance Exhaust Rant / Discussion

[outcrydrummer]

Just feel like I needed to express myself here and rant a second.
 
First off lets just all agree that all the exhaust for the fz07 is expensive...... Starting at the cheaper end with the yoshi 600+ all the way to the Akrapovic, graves, etc etc at or near a grand for the full exhaust. Combine those with a fuel controller and your looking at 800+ for the Yoshi and slightly over a grand for the others or somewhat close. ( I understand there are cheaper options but I'm talking the mainstream pipes available almost anywhere and full systems ).
 
So this starts my rant haha. HP and TQ gains on a motorcycle are EXPENSIVE!!!!! No thats not quite my rant..... its no secret that buying hp and tq for a motorcyle or almost anything today is crazy crazy expensive. So where my rant actually begins is why is everyone sipping the proverbial kool aid and buying the Yoshi pipe? Combined with a fuel controller your talking somewhere around 850 bucks and your not really gaining anything except sound ( Please dont bash me until you look at the dyno results ). When for 200 more bucks you can gain somewhere around 1-2hp and 1-2 ft lb of torque across the entire rpm band.
 
I agree that at a glance a thousand bucks for a few hp seems stupid. But when you consider your already commited to buying a 850 dollar pipe that extra 200 really is pretty cheap ( In the motorcyle hp and tq buying world ) for that extra 2 hp and tq.
 
 
I'm not saying the Yosh pipe sucks or this pipe is better then that pipe I just feel like people see other people buying the Yoshi and jump into the situation unaware only to be dissapointed when they get on their buddies bike and feel that extra power with another pipe. I was utterly blown away after researching all the pipes to find that pipes that made the best power overall were the two most un-popular pipes ( Arrow, Graves ). While these didnt make peak hp numbers that the Akrapovic did ( also a good pipe obviously ) they did make better power ( In my opinion ) over the entire rpm. Lets face it your not riding around thinking " Man i love this extra 3 hp at 9000 rpm " LOL. At least I don't do most of my riding at 9-10k rpm.........results may vary in that regard.
 
Again this isnt targeted at Yoshi pipes it just seems to be the obvious and easy target in this particular application. Had a great yoshi pipe on my drz400sm that made great power for the money and was very competitive.
 
 
 
 
****** This is not lets start a war thread ********    ********* Everyone has an opinion this is simply mine ****** ******* Lets hear your feedback *********

[howworkclutch]

I kinda agree. But differently.
 
I can't justify spending that kind of coin on a $7k bike. No way. Ever. I'll punch a hole in the exhaust first.
 
And I can't understand these tuners. They're absolutlely gouging thier customers. In the old days you could get a jet kit for a few bucks. Keep in mind that a jet kit was not a magical set of numbers that could be freely reproduced. A jet kit was a set of screws that had to be machined to tight tolerances by someone somewhere.
 
Finding a tune took more time because you had to take the carbs apart to re jet them.
 
You could rejet for pocket change.
 
But these new guys they're rock stars. They need to buy more shop logos to plaster on their shop monster trucks. So they sell you 3 peak hp at about $100 per hp and you're ok with it.
 
But honestly you gotta be out of your damned mind to put so much money into a $7k motorcycle.

[bmwpowere36m3]

And?
 
People like to modify their vehicles and they justify their purchases for different reasons. I think most understand that full exhaust systems are really only about the sound anyway... any HP gain is a plus. Some will pay to have the "name" on the can.
 
It's like spending $100 on a fender eliminator.... does the stock liscense plate holder/bracket not sufficiently hold your plate? No, it's mearly cosmetic.

[outcrydrummer]

Howwork i see what your saying but a carb jet kit is in nature cheap....its essentially a redesigned needle and a few larger jets that cost pennies.
Fuel injection controllers are pricey due to tuning costs for the maps and the cost of electronics.

[bmwpowere36m3]

I kinda agree. But differently.  
I can't justify spending that kind of coin on a $7k bike. No way. Ever. I'll punch a hole in the exhaust first.
 
And I can't understand these tuners. They're absolutlely gouging thier customers. In the old days you could get a jet kit for a few bucks. Keep in mind that a jet kit was not a magical set of numbers that could be freely reproduced. A jet kit was a set of screws that had to be machined to tight tolerances by someone somewhere.
 
Finding a tune took more time because you had to take the carbs apart to re jet them.
 
You could rejet for pocket change.
 
But these new guys they're rock stars. They need to buy more shop logos to plaster on their shop monster trucks. So they sell you 3 peak hp at about $100 per hp and you're ok with it.
 
But honestly you gotta be out of your damned mind to put so much money into a $7k motorcycle.

A $7k bike... that's the same argument I here when someone says they have a $1000 car, but doesn't want to pay $500 to do work on it.  The price of the bike is irrelevant.  Its all about personal preferences and satisfaction.  Seems the reasoning is that it won't add $1k or so in value to the bike... true, but neither will it on a $18k Ducati.
Yes, tuning carb'd bikes is "easier and cheaper".  However if you paid a tuner to dyno and jet your bike, I bet you'd be looking at the same money.  If you're a DIYer, then tuning a carb only requires TIME, open area to ride and jets (cheap).  With FI and electronics, the biggest hurdle is cracking/manipulating the factory programming.
So I don't think ECU-tuning is more expensive.  Especially when you consider the investment (by tuner to "hack" the ECU, develop software, dyno and provide a electronics interface in the case of EJK and PC) and product you receive (not just machined brass bits) get a product that's essentially plug 'n play.  And you better get used to it, as FI is becoming the new "standard" in motorcycling.
 

[grahamfz07]

I'm very happy with my "most un-popular" choice of the Arrow. The price tag is hard to swallow in comparison to buying a full flowmaster exhaust for my car at less than $500. For me it was more the sound/look of the bike that lead me down the road of an aftermarket exhaust. the extra 1 hp is just an added bonus

[outcrydrummer]

grahamfz07 the arrow actually makes the best mid range power out of all of the exhausts. I was torn between the arrow and graves and ultimately bought the graves.

[magsz18]

The price of the bike is NOT irrelevant if you bought to that particular price point.
 
If you buy a seven thousand dollar bike and you spend three thousand in "upgrades" you could have just spent 10k and gotten a faster bike. Sure, it wouldnt be "personalized" but it would still be faster.
 
The points being made here is that per dollar, HP is expensive as hell.
 
To each their own i say.
 
My biggest gripe is that alot of these systems seem to LOSE power until you get a fuel controller for them.

[hobbs]

There's no replacement for displacement.

[aeisan]

OK, so here's my perspective...
 
First, if you think $600-800 for a full exhaust system is expensive, you should look at systems available for other bikes. I've seen systems for the R1, for example, that run north of $2k. I understand the cost difference between an FZ-07 and an R1, but still... $800 for a full exhaust system is cheap in my opinion.
 
Second, do not only judge a system by the dyno... A lot of people seem to think that the HP increase from the improved air flow is the only performance increase aspect of getting an aftermarket exhaust. The real increase, in my opinion, comes from the weight savings. If I recall based on some quick math assuming base ~70HP and ~400lbs weight weight), for an FZ-07 shaving 12 lbs off the weight was about the equivalent to a 2 HP gain, and that is across the entire power band, not just a peak measurement. I can't be certain the 70/400 base numbers are accurate, but I think they are close.
 
Also... If fast is your objective... You are barking up the wrong tree. A better suspension will make you much faster unless you ride in a straight line all the time.
 
In terms of the price of the bike... One way to look at it is that it's a "budget" bike and why would you put money into a inexpensive bike? I don't see it that way.. I see it as an inexpensive bike with a lot of potential that leaves more money in my wallet to mod the way I want it to be. I don't need a faster bike per se, so it's not an issue of why didn't I get one that is more expensive and faster. I could have gotten an FZ-09, but to be honest I thought they looked like shit. I was actually in the markey for a used FZ8 before I had even heard of the FZ-07. I even considered an older FZ1, but again I wasn't finding many in my area. As for faster... Yeah, I'll take care of that later. My current plan is to get the new R1 in either its 2nd or 3rd year of production. Until then, I am thoroughly happy on my 07 and plan to keep both bikes when the time comes. Like the guy above said... To each, his own.
 
That's just my three cents.

[aeisan]

Also... They do not lose power. They lose low end torque, and just about every aftermarket exhaust on every bike has that same issue. You feel less "power" but technically speaking you are not feeling a lose in HP, you are feeling a loss in torque.
 
Torque is much easier to measure on a butt dyno than HP is. That's why the butt dyno is not always the ideal tuning instrument.

[bmwpowere36m3]

The price of the bike is NOT irrelevant if you bought to that particular price point. 
If you buy a seven thousand dollar bike and you spend three thousand in "upgrades" you could have just spent 10k and gotten a faster bike. Sure, it wouldnt be "personalized" but it would still be faster.
 
The points being made here is that per dollar, HP is expensive as hell.
 
To each their own i say.
 
My biggest gripe is that alot of these systems seem to LOSE power until you get a fuel controller for them.

Sure, but you think the guy who bought a $10k bike won't spend 3k in mods as well?  Regardless of price, perception, etc... I've seen almost every vehicle mod'd in some shape or form.  Many times exceeding the value of just buying a better vehicle to start with.
I think most people would agree that the FZ-07 is a LOT of bike for $7k.  Even if you spent 3k in mods (like suspension, brakes and intake/exhaust/tune)... what bike at 10k would be comparable?  You'd be foolish to think that tuning a 700cc bike will get you to 1000cc hp levels, barring forced-induction and/or serious engine work.
Anytime you do intake or exhaust work, jetting or fueling needs to change.  So just slapping on an exhaust in most cases will result in a loss of power....  you can still ride it without a tune/jetting, but won't be optimal.  Sorry, gone are the good 'ol days of slapping on some high flow filters and mufflers and magically producing a lot more HP.  Nowadays its much harder to make more HP than delivered from the factory.  HP = expensive... always.  Whether it'd be cars or motorcycles.
 
I get the feeling there are a lot of individuals (young, new to motorcycling, lower-income, etc...) who purchased this bike because of the low-price and then complain about the cost of an OE air filter, for example or the price of aftermarket parts.

[aeisan]

The price of the bike is NOT irrelevant if you bought to that particular price point. 
If you buy a seven thousand dollar bike and you spend three thousand in "upgrades" you could have just spent 10k and gotten a faster bike. Sure, it wouldnt be "personalized" but it would still be faster.
 
The points being made here is that per dollar, HP is expensive as hell.
 
To each their own i say.
 
My biggest gripe is that alot of these systems seem to LOSE power until you get a fuel controller for them.

Sure, but you think the guy who bought a $10k bike won't spend 3k in mods as well?  Regardless of price, perception, etc... I've seen almost every vehicle mod'd in some shape or form.  Many times exceeding the value of just buying a better vehicle to start with.
I think most people would agree that the FZ-07 is a LOT of bike for $7k.  Even if you spent 3k in mods (like suspension, brakes and intake/exhaust/tune)... what bike at 10k would be comparable?  You'd be foolish to think that tuning a 700cc bike will get you to 1000cc hp levels, barring forced-induction and/or serious engine work.
Anytime you do intake or exhaust work, jetting or fueling needs to change.  So just slapping on an exhaust in most cases will result in a loss of power....  you can still ride it without a tune/jetting, but won't be optimal.

This.

[1finefz09]

 

[outcrydrummer]

 
 
 

OK, so here's my perspective...  
First, if you think $600-800 for a full exhaust system is expensive, you should look at systems available for other bikes. I've seen systems for the R1, for example, that run north of $2k. I understand the cost difference between an FZ-07 and an R1, but still... $800 for a full exhaust system is cheap in my opinion.
 
Second, do not only judge a system by the dyno... A lot of people seem to think that the HP increase from the improved air flow is the only performance increase aspect of getting an aftermarket exhaust. The real increase, in my opinion, comes from the weight savings. If I recall based on some quick math assuming base ~70HP and ~400lbs weight weight), for an FZ-07 shaving 12 lbs off the weight was about the equivalent to a 2 HP gain, and that is across the entire power band, not just a peak measurement. I can't be certain the 70/400 base numbers are accurate, but I think they are close.
 
Also... If fast is your objective... You are barking up the wrong tree. A better suspension will make you much faster unless you ride in a straight line all the time.
 
In terms of the price of the bike... One way to look at it is that it's a "budget" bike and why would you put money into a inexpensive bike? I don't see it that way.. I see it as an inexpensive bike with a lot of potential that leaves more money in my wallet to mod the way I want it to be. I don't need a faster bike per se, so it's not an issue of why didn't I get one that is more expensive and faster. I could have gotten an FZ-09, but to be honest I thought they looked like shet. I was actually in the markey for a used FZ8 before I had even heard of the FZ-07. I even considered an older FZ1, but again I wasn't finding many in my area. As for faster... Yeah, I'll take care of that later. My current plan is to get the new R1 in either its 2nd or 3rd year of production. Until then, I am thoroughly happy on my 07 and plan to keep both bikes when the time comes. Like the guy above said... To each, his own.
 
That's just my three cents.

 

[outcrydrummer]

Not sure what went on there ^^^^^^ Was trying to quote and respond to Aesian.
Anyways I agree that weight is also a factor. I think the graves weighs in just under 8lbs being one of the lightest full exhausts as well.

[howworkclutch]

if you weigh 200 lbs in gear and the bike weighs 396 wet, the gross vehicle weight is 596 lbs. If you reduce the weight by 10 lbs, you've decreased the weight by 1%.
 
 The Ikea Effect.
 
horsepower = torque(rpm)
 
Chose the most powerful:
70 = 7(10)
or
70 = 10(7)
 
hp = bs.
 
you can believe in santa, jesus, and true love. no one can take these away from you.
 
but you can't argue with maths.
 
if you want to go stinky-fast, buy a used buell 1125r.
 

[Cruizin]

The lightweight FZ-07 can keep up with the liter bikes or almost any other bike on the track and twisties, if set up correctly. If Upgraded.
 
Kinda like how Suzuki SV650's often pass liter bikes in the twisties. Lightweight and good midrange are what matters, not top speed. Unless you are at the salt flats.
 
It is far better to upgrade a lightweight $7,000 bike than it is to upgrade a $13,000 bike. Unless you are rich.
 
Upgraded FZ-07= $10,000 with suspension, exhaust, ECU and like the SV650 Suzuki, passing or keeping up with liter bikes, laughing like hell at the money saved.
 
Upgraded LiterBike=$14000-$18,000 and being passed by a lighter FZ-07, or having one right on yer ass in the corners, and hearing him laughing at all the money you spent.

[Allan]

Honestly, I could care less about performance numbers with this bike. It makes all the power and torque where it counts and it is just an amazing overall bike. I bought my Akrapovic Titanium and I had no interest in the power gains it gave me, and I knew it wouldn't be much of anything to gain power wise anyway. I was more just interested in my bike sounding and looking better. And thus I bought the Akrapovic. I bought the FZ-07 because I feel in love with it at a test drive event. I love the fact it was the price it was, and I plan on keeping this bike for a very, very long time. I'm sure a lot of people here are in the same boat as me where I'm buying things not for power upgrades, but to make the bike MINE. Everything I buy for this bike is because I liked it and it speaks to my taste. My bike is an expression of me and if part of that results in a $1,100 metal tube that makes loud noises, then hey, that's my business. Haha If others can't justify spending that much on a $7,000 bike, that's up to them. Not everyone is interested in raw performance figures. Sure they are nice, but with a bike like this personalizing, for the most part, will put a bigger smile on your face then trying to squeeze every single drop of power out of this bike, when it was not intended to be a high performance race bike. If you want to add serious power to this bike, the only way to do so is forced induction or serious engine work. You can't go into buying this specific bike with the mind set of, "I'm going to make this thing sooo much more powerful than stock with all of the power boosts I get from little mods that add up to a big gain." That's just not how this type of bike works. Like others have said, if you want a bike that can get you to 100 MPH in the first gear, get a liter bike. That's just MY 2 cents. Happy riding!

[phicurious86]

I guess I'm not alone in thinking that the exhaust is not about raw performance numbers. I got the exhaust for aesthetics and care very little about the performance number comparison between all the different pipes. Yoshi looks sweet, sounds sweet, and was thus purchased. Graves, not look sweet. Arrow, not look sweet. But that's just me.
 

[DFDFF]

I bought the Yoshi for looks as well. That stock job was hideous. I understand the rant about upgrading a $7k bike. I would think Yamaha would look into upgrading some of these components and releasing a FZ-07R. I know some of us would be interested in better suspension and higher end components from the factory while others would rather upgrade their own bikes. I picked this bike as a new rider. Affordable, easy to ride, forgiving, good looking, sporty, etc. I added a few mods: sliders, screen, exhaust, and fender eliminator to clean it up and suit my tastes. Do I see myself spending a lot more money on it....No, as it does what I need it to do. I rather see myself upgrading bikes instead of upgrading this bike down the road.

[outcrydrummer]

Phicurious are you serious.....you dont think the graves is a good looking exhaust.....dang lol

[phicurious86]

Phicurious are you serious.....you dont think the graves is a good looking exhaust.....dang lol

Sorry man. It's the length of the muffler that gets me on that one.

[pgeldz]

To the OP, I think everyone has pretty much said how I actually feel but to address your actual rant, I'll give you my perspective on it.
 
Why is everyone buying these expensive pipes just to add a few hp and tq?
 
For me, that's easy...weight, sound, aesthetics.  The power gains were just a bonus for me.  I have a lot of, lets say, "love" into my bike and wanted to create my ultimate expression of what a naked sport bike could be to replace my beloved SV650.  I found it in the FZ-07.
 
And that's really what it comes down to, personal expression.  If I wanted something faster, I would have bought it, and prob will in the form of a 2016 R1 next spring.  But it's still a way different experience.
 
As far as getting a faster bike to begin with, here's my take on that one.  Most people really don't realize that the more powerful bikes don't feel all that more powerful at reasonable speeds, say 20-70 mph, where the bulk of street riding is done.  Many of them feel sluggish and heavy at low speeds.  Their performance envelope is so much higher than what typical street riding allows, that for me anyway, it's not as fun.  Their power is usually towards the higher end of the rpm range, and you wouldn't even get out of 2nd gear if you kept it on the boil on the street.
 
I test rode the BMW S1000R, and the Triumph Street Triple before I rode the FZ-07, and chose the FZ for it's ultra lightweight and monster tq.  As Cruzin pointed out, it has the power in the right places to really surprise people.
 
I'll leave you with this thought about one bike being faster than another...
 
Performance figures aside...it's NEVER the bike - it's ALWAYS the rider.
 
Most people (including me), don't have the skill to ride any of these bikes to their full potential, PERIOD.  
 
I'll never forget this - Many moons ago, when I was stationed in So Cal, I thought I was a bad ass cause I had a 1988 Suzuki 750 (the "slingshot" model for you old timers haha).  I use to ride Angela's Crest Highway every weekend.  I was like 20 years old.  This one time, I was getting tailgated by an older gentleman all geared up on a Honda Goldwing so I pulled over and let him pass, and he did, all leaned over dragging parts of that bike that just shouldn't ever contact the pavement.
 
I was like, did that just happen?  Yessir.  I caught up with him at Newcombs Ranch, the little bar and grill about halfway into the ride and had a chat with him.  Turns out he's been riding his whole life, and has learned a thing or two on the way.
 
In the coming months I became an MSF Instructor for George Air Force Base and have been riding off and on ever since.  Just recently, I've become quite interested in track riding and have taken a couple of classes for that.  One was an Advanced Riders Course, and the other was the 2-Day California Superbike School.  This weekend I'm taking the FZ to the track for it's first real outing and getting instructed by one of the Senior Instructors from the Yamaha Champions Riding School.
 
So my point is, as it relates to this, is...a few hp won't make you a faster rider.  Practice, experience, education, and instruction will.
 

 
- Paulie 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[FZRDR]

Paulie,
 
You nailed it,  enough said!