bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Sport Rider Extract STREET One of the major keys to a successful suspension setup is the condition of the components. Before attempting any setting changes, check to make sure your bike's fork and shock are in good working order. This includes replacing leaky seals, lubricating sticky linkage bushings, and changing old fork or shock oil. If your current components have more than 15,000 hard miles on them, you can bet it's time for a rebuild. Check your steering head bearings for notchiness or tightness and replace them if needed. And most importantly, squared-off or worn out tires will mask almost any suspension change you make. The first step to a good setup is setting static sag. For street purposes, front sag should generally be between 30 and 35mm, and rear sag between 25 and 30mm. Don't vary from these numbers if you're heavier or lighter--that's the whole idea of measuring sag while you are on the bike. I thought I was pretty close with 35 front and 30 rear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 Right @bigtwin but the "absolute" values you referenced are highly dependent on what the full travel numbers were in the first place, the arrangement of the shock, the linkage rate, and the weight bias of the bike. 35mm fork for a 8" street-motard is completely wrong. But for a 110mm fork (pretty common in sportbike-land) it's on the money. Similarly for shock. On my SV650 for example I target 5-10mm static and no more than 25mm on the rear. I also pull the forks up in the triples 5-10mm since the SV is needlessly ass-heavy. Personally I'd add another turn or two to that rear spring assuming it didn't cause the shock to top out. Tinker and measure and ride and find out what you like the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 > That's a lot of pitch mate. Big rear wheel unload and possibility of chatter. @gregjet, hey we're talking street riding here, not bombing into a corner on the track. I go to the races at Summit Point and it's amazing to watch just how many bikes have the shock going all nuts into turn 5. Why? Too much rebound damping in the shock. There are a lot of racers (even seasoned experts) who don't have the first clue about suspension and run things so stiff you can't move either end by hand. I have had occasion to make a paddock suggestion or two and after they get over the initial change, some come back and tell me how much better the bike worked and they knocked serious time off their laps. I just smile. Good suspension is a combination of supple, firm, and control. I'd love to be have the opportunity to shove on an AMA or MotoGP/2/3 bike and see how they feel. But again, those guys are running so much faster, stiffness may be the only saving grace to the extreme braking forces being applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 These pictures show the needle bottomed out on the piston hole. The 58.4mm on the caliper is the depth of the threaded hole in the fork cap. This dimension obviously disagrees with Bigtwin's since his part is much shorter but the concept is the same. So what we see here is that there is up to 15mm of thread on the black rod that the fork cap can maximally engage (needle fully topped out in cap). If we position the needle 4 turns in, as specified, it shortens to ~11mm. There is enough engagement left over is do another 2 or 3 and if you're adventurous, 4. Normally you don't engage less threads than the diameter of the fastener, but aside from top-out forces (pretty rare), the push/pull on the rod is the hydraulic action of the piston and I can't imagine that's anywhere near the level needed to strip the threads out. And I was wrong about the 2-stage threading. M10x1.0 is common to both pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 I calculated the taper of Andreani's needle. 2.6 to 1.7 over 8mm of distance or 6.5deg included angle. At 4 turns the diameter of the needle is 2.15mm. At 5 turns it's 2.04. Showa needles run an included angle of 15 degrees and I believe I've seen as high as 20. The piston bleed hole is 2.5mm which is rather common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Thank you Pattonme...... Regarding static sag....On the front there is 140mm of fully extended stanchion and I have dialed in 32.5mm front (stiction adjusted) and I have 28mm rear....Will Test ride it when I'm back... I also promise to explore the possibilities re. extra needle turn potential when I return from vacation. Thanks to all here for a very sensible discussion. My very best wishes to all of you. Until July 12th regards. Bigtwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Pattonme, You are right about racers and suspension. They pretty much only think about HP and tyres at all except the top level. They try and find all sorts of cheats for the motor etc and ignore the suspension. Or just use fashion word of mouth for it. Often they would get more track speed ( high corner carrying speed and later braking) with a substantially cheaper suspension upgrade. $1500 for an exhaust to give them a tiny handful of HP and a second or 2 off their lap ,$1000 for a rear shock that works and 5seconds off a lap. True, not so important with modern sports bikes as they now have not too bad suspension, but the non-sportbike classes usually have aweful suspension. Maybe because I grew up setting my suspension for our seriously neglected NQ roads. I use 25% for the road (and 10-20% static sag for the track). That would be about 31mm. It allows a big margin of error for bumps in the entry and mid corner. While I doubt we have the corner on the bump growing market, we sure grow a fine crop. You have to add the top out spring sit into the static though. The forks don't start from 0mm travel. I was lazy and didn't do the numbers to fund what it is so I just gestimated ( road bike not track so not that vital) it as about 5 to 10mm. So the static measurement I use is 31mm less topout spring set of 10mm, or about 21mm external measure from rest. Anyway that is a starting point so once I can start tuning it the world may change. 1 Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 What IMO the compression-side piston should have looked like. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 The side showing is where the shim stack would be? Yeah, lots more potential flow. I think I'm still gonna use lighter vis fluid in the left leg. That's still a ways off. Have a beat up 2006 Ninja 250 in the garage in need of a coolant swap and its 1st valve inspection after 36k miles!!!!! This is the bike i broke a 40 year old socket on trying to remove a caliper bolt. It's always an adventure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Well, well, my kit is apparently on its way! If it's here by Thurs, I'll have the shock on Friday evening after work and give it a good work-out this weekend. Gotta get that 250 Kaw out of my way. All 4 exhaust valves, tight as a drum, lol. Pretty amazing how a few thousands of an inch can so adversely affect idle speed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huskydave Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I love this thread, hey Pattonme, what your opinion of this kit have leg compression, one leg rebound. How does compare to each leg both duty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I love this thread, hey Pattonme, what your opinion of this kit have leg compression, one leg rebound. How does compare to each leg both duty seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 @huskydave, I think you're looking for http://www.fz07.org/post/41928 on page 6. I know 14+ pages is a bit to wade thru... but the idea of threads is to start with page 1. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 here, let me take a quick shot one valve doing the work of 2 can be done properly - it's done that way in big piston forks (BPF). With size being limited - even in a bigger USD fork than what's in the FZ, the engineering would have to be perfect to be as good or better with 1 valve vs. 2. So, the Andreani kit will be better than the OE crap that's in there stock. Would 2 valves in each leg control better? - likely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 It's funny that Huskydave asked that question as my Husky TR650 has compression ( and a little rebound on one leg and almost totally rebound on the other). It was the first bike I had owned with biased side damping duties. Owned plenty of mountain bikes with it though. USD forks though. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huskydave Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 The only time I open my mouth, is to change feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 My Kit came today, Almost hate to tell you this Pattonme, but mine also has the short gold section. Didn't measure the potential travel, but I'm gonna guess it's also the same as Bigtwin's kit. The directions do show the longer gold section, so it's anyone's guess what's up with this. No fork fluid came with my kit, so I'll be buying that Redline oil. I must be having another senior moment. This "phasing" business to get 4 turns of adjustment. I was expecting to see the directions say to turn the adjuster fully closed (clockwise?) and then open 4 turns ( counterclockwise) before bolting on the cap. But the directions are the other way round - fully open and then turn 4 turns clockwise before bolting the cap to the rod. Guess when it's all open that will make sense, but for now, not This is different from my Showa forks as that cap screws onto the exterior of the damper rod. The adjuster assembly is bolted separately to the damper and the relationship between the needle it's seat are not affected by removing the cap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I must be having another senior moment. This "phasing" business to get 4 turns of adjustment. I was expecting to see the directions say to turn the adjuster fully closed (clockwise?) and then open 4 turns ( counterclockwise) before bolting on the cap. But the directions are the other way round - fully open and then turn 4 turns clockwise before bolting the cap to the rod. Guess when it's all open that will make sense, but for now, not This is different from my Showa forks as that cap screws onto the exterior of the damper rod. The adjuster assembly is bolted separately to the damper and the relationship between the needle it's seat are not affected by removing the cap. Never mind - after a little oxygen therapy, i get it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 > No fork fluid came with my kit Seems the Kayaba Bushing Guy is now part of the pack the box before shipment, crew. You paid for oil. You didn't get it. They owe you a bottle ($10-15) When did you order @rick? My criticisms/analysis (shortened version of what's here) went to corporate a couple weeks ago. It's not inconceivable they modded the bill of materials. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I ordered somewhere around the 1st week of June. So, maybe you had an impact - if that's the case - thanks for that. Aside from it being the right length, having that lock nut so close to the cap will sure make life easier. I emailed David about the oil. He emailed back and said he thought he'd packed it in the box - hmm - it's not like it's a small item. Monday he emailed that he was installing a lighter spring on the shock to compensate for my weight. The package had clearly been opened and re-taped - a bit sloppily, I might add. So the oil was probably in there and it's now on HIS shelf along side of yours . He's in Utah right now for a race and answered my email about the fluid pretty early (his time) I'm gonna order a qt each of that full synth Redline in the 5wt for the right side and the lighter stuff (2.5?) for the left compression side. I might even dilute the 5wt down to the cSt of the Ohlins stuff. If that doesn't give enough adjustment, I'll play lab rat (lord knows, the lab rats (white ones) have earned some vengeance at this point) and flip that valve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huskydave Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I wish I was at MILLER right now.....GO JOE ROBERTS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huskydave Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Go Joe!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Hi Pattonme. Rode to UK yesterday so 80MPH most if the way. Front end very nice in general but thumping on any sudden road seams...expansion joints and bridge joints etc...as you know I am almost out of needle. Nothing I can do until I get home in one week but it looks like your proposal regarding restricted oil flow is correct.Rear end nice and trouble free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I'm definitely gonna use a lighter fluid in the compression side - Iir, that fluid's around 9 cSt. From others who've done this, it sounds like some adjustment is gained back. With both your adjusters nearly maxed out, I'm tempted to use the lighter fluid in both sides. Rebound might not have enough control however with the lighter fluid. Hey, do you remember how much fluid it took to fill the tubes to 120mm from the top? Having to mix to get the right vis in the rebound side, I don't want to run out of the lighter visc fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 @rick, don't go with the lighter fluid on rebound. Well, you can do as you like, but I think you'll find it's self-defeating. It's about 450ml or so. If you mix based on that, then adding a few extra cc of heavier to get to the needed height isn't going to make any material difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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