rick Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Given these numbers and the many forks I've done successfully with Showa cartridges (the SV Gen1 is the same 27.25mm diameter as FZ07) I have to conclude that the guts have to come out or you put it in a big, honkin' lathe and take a bite out of the bore. I'm confused - again. Is this more guts than what we've already talked about - the seal at the bottom of the stanchion and the lip that holds it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Handling update Went for a ride today...fast smooth roads....undulating twisties, humpback bridges and speed humps. I was very happy and very confident in the safe controlled feeling...... both from the front and rear of the bike. Perhaps the front springs are a touch too firm......I would love to try a set of slightly lower rated springs.... but I cannot justify buying some just for a test..... Oh yes.....fast smooth roads with occasional undulations felt fantastic.....smooth...controlled and tight. Clearly everything can be improved and I am all for that (it is my mantra!). The Rick/Pattonme investigation into the Andreani/Stock Kabaya/Showa forks is very interesting and I am sure will lead to even better performance than I am enjoying so far on Andeani cartridges and Ohlin rear. Keep at it guys.... and keep us all informed as to your findings and outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etorty Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Hello all, I'm a little confused about the two - different - kits that are available from Andreani... The Andreani cartridges will be - probably - my choice for the fork of my MT-07, and I would like to be sure to order the right (or the better??) kit for my needs. Please, can someone make a summary, in order to clarify any difference between the two kits?? Thank you very much in advance... www.MT-Series.it Yamaha Official MT-Series Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Hello all, I'm a little confused about the two - different - kits that are available from Andreani... The Andreani cartridges will be - probably - my choice for the fork of my MT-07, and I would like to be sure to order the right (or the better??) kit for my needs. Please, can someone make a summary, in order to clarify any difference between the two kits?? Thank you very much in advance... I don't think we know why this happened or whether there's actually a functional difference beyond the 10mm in throw between those kits. The one hat bigtwin got has the correct throw and will be easier to take apart for maintenance. Why the one that pattonme got is different is still a mistery. But aside from going grey market and ordering direct thru Omnia, we have one distributor in the states. I'm gonna email him today about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Perhaps the front springs are a touch too firm......I would love to try a set of slightly lower rated springs.... but I cannot justify buying some just for a test..... Have you checked sag - now obviously front and back? Cause if that is in the right ballpark, then it'll be the damping that needs to be softened more than going to a lower spring rate. That said, seems like many of the aftermarket set-ups wind up being a bit over sprung. But carefully check sag numbers 1st. I'm fully expecting springs that will be a tad too much form 135 lbs cause I'm just way lighter than the average guy our there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 So @rick, you're not a patriotic 'murican then? Obesity is our pride, our differentiating attribute of national excellence. JK I'm going to go out on a limb and agree that the 'stiffness' @bigtwin is chalking up to the spring is actually the lack of sufficient flow. He's hitting the plateau of flow-rate. > fast smooth roads with occasional undulations felt fantastic.....smooth...controlled and tight. I don't doubt it. But those are low-shaft-speed conditions. Also Rick, I'm talking about the same big piece of metal in the bottom of the fork. If you're using a Showa-based kit (24mm tube) then all you need is to knock the little plastic ring out. If you're using a Andreani kit (25.12mm tube) then in my opinion, the entirety of the guts have to come out. It would be interesting if @bigtwin could compare his current setup to one in which the C leg's valve is flipped over, holding all the spacers and whatnot constant. My Andreani kit has the EXACT same label as Bigtwin's. So I am at a loss to explain the rather obvious differences. I guess I'll have to measure the full-system length and see if there is something amiss there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 The needle is just under 9mm long and the adjuster thread is 1.0mm pitch. So the difference between seated and backed off 4 turns (aka 4mm) is *incredibly* slight. Also this means that the bleed orifice (is heavily impinged) at all times which to me is a bit curious at least for the C side. I haven't measured the taper as yet. If there is enough thread to work with, I would set the needle at 7 turns and reinstall the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Sag was spot on for the Ohlin.... But I do not have figures for the Andreani I'll measure and post soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 The needle is just under 9mm long and the adjuster thread is 1.0mm pitch. So the difference between seated and backed off 4 turns (aka 4mm) is *incredibly* slight. Also this means that the bleed orifice (is heavily impinged) at all times which to me is a bit curious at least for the C side. I haven't measured the taper as yet. If there is enough thread to work with, I would set the needle at 8 turns and reinstall the cap. Please keep some perspective.....I actually said the the handling was great.....both on the twisties and smooth roads. I am sure it can be even better...... but I believe most who will do the conversion will be very satisfied, particularly when compared to the original equipment. If I get time later in the summer I am happy to experiment to help you Pattonme, and Rick test your theories....Perhaps between us all we can get a really good solution, whether it be a modified Andreani or a modified Showa.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I should also clarify something. I cannot say for certain that when the adjuster screw is fully in on the fork cap that the needle is actually fully closing the orifice... I only know that 4 turns in from fully out the adjuster stops!!and when fully in and the adjuster is turned four turns out..... it also stops..... Where the needle point is in relation to the orifice I have no idea...This would slightly put a hole in Pattonme's theory on the needle and 8 turns etc....Perhaps he can check this on the bench as I cannot do it now the forks are assembled and in use. Also remember I am using 120Nm springs rear and something similar in the Andreanis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 > 4 turns in from fully out the adjuster stops!!and when fully in and the adjuster is turned four turns out..... it also stops..... I presume you followed the kit's instructions when installing such that you turned the needle all the way out, then counted 4 turns in, and then installed the cap, yes? For the turning-out direction you're hitting either the end of the threads or the end of the larger diameter section within the gold rod. I'll post a pic of the adjuster end of the needle rod and you'll immediately see what's going on. As to turning-in, yes you're hitting the end of the needle - see pic right at the '6' mark. That diameter is greater than the orifice and so now it's bottomed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Thank you for the explanation Sorry to appear dumb.....Can you now explain how .....if I were to turn the adjuster in 8 turns prior to assembly....... how that would enable it to expose more of the orifice? I can't seem rationalise to the relationship between adjuster/threads/distance of needle from the fork cap. Could it be that there is a 'foolproof' needle length adjuster that we have not mentioned yet (assuming we know all internal measurements)....the number of threads used on the threaded portion where the lock nut goes into the Fork cap, I would have thought this would work better if we had some definitive measurement values as this lock nut adjustment surely alters the effective length of the needle rod....or? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 So @rick, you're not a patriotic 'murican then? Obesity is our pride, our differentiating attribute of national excellence. JK I'm going to go out on a limb and agree that the 'stiffness' @bigtwin is chalking up to the spring is actually the lack of sufficient flow. He's hitting the plateau of flow-rate. > fast smooth roads with occasional undulations felt fantastic.....smooth...controlled and tight. I don't doubt it. But those are low-shaft-speed conditions. Also Rick, I'm talking about the same big piece of metal in the bottom of the fork. If you're using a Showa-based kit (24mm tube) then all you need is to knock the little plastic ring out. If you're using a Andreani kit (25.12mm tube) then in my opinion, the entirety of the guts have to come out. It would be interesting if @bigtwin could compare his current setup to one in which the C leg's valve is flipped over, holding all the spacers and whatnot constant. My Andreani kit has the EXACT same label as Bigtwin's. So I am at a loss to explain the rather obvious differences. I guess I'll have to measure the full-system length and see if there is something amiss there as well. Heehee, I'm plenty enough patriotic. Heart disease runs in my(erm, dead) father's family and my mother was only 4'10" - I was doomed to a life of watching what I eat ( I'm not getting any taller, dat's for sure) and climbing on shelves at the grocery store to reach the healthy stuff. So if there's only one cat #, that means either Andreani has 2 similar kits, or the same guy who does lower bushings for Kayaba is filling the boxes. So, luck of the draw as to which set-up goes into the box before it's grabbed from off the shelf and in the mail OK, I thought I understood your suggestion to unscrew the cap to gain more adjustment, but the 8 turn thing has confused me as well. If the design was to limit travel by 4 turns from within the cap, then backing the cap off of the rod by 1 full turn would result in the adjustment range making the needle further back from the valve - even at what used to be 0 turns out. At 4 turns back (assuming that will always be the max # turns), the needle ends up even further back, just cause the cap is now further back. End result is the same number of turns, just hopefully more flow. Well, I've already resigned myself that some surgery has to be done to the stanchions to remove those metal bits. I don't think I'd bother with the conversion if I didn't want that commitment. Still the set-up sounds better than the OE POS. And we'll all be getting inside there anyway at some point to do the lower bushing. Better me than whatever dealer, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 SAG Fully extended fork leg exposed = 140mm Static sag =20mm (leg exposed = 120mm) Rider sag =15mm (leg exposed = 105mm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 > if I were to turn the adjuster in 8 turns prior to assembly....... how that would enable it to expose more of the orifice? There should be 2 sets of threads inside the golden rod. M10x1.0 for threading onto the black piston rod, and another M?x1.0 for the needle rod. Well, that's how Showa does it. There might be just the one size (M10x1.0) but if they engineered it right, then there is plenty of internal thread length such that there is considerably more than the ~20mm for the black rod and 4 turns for the needle movement + 5mm for the needle rod's threaded portion such so that if you set the needle to X turns the needle is bottoming out on the piston's hole rather than the black part hitting the needle rod's threaded portion. Now maybe there is only ~4 turns worth of room in which case 8 turns is not possible. I'll have to autopsy to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Now maybe there is only ~4 turns worth of room in which case 8 turns is not possible. I'll have to autopsy to check. Read more: http://fz07.org/thread/2415/andreani-advanced-cartridge-kit?page=13&scrollTo=43346#ixzz3dFqeHlAz Thankyou Pattonme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 > Still the set-up sounds better than the OE POS. No question. My bitching and "high-brow" (baffle-them-with-bullsh*t) maths notwithstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 SAG Fully extended fork leg exposed = 140mm Static sag =20mm (leg exposed = 120mm) Rider sag =15mm (leg exposed = 105mm) just to keep the terminology consistent, rider sag per above is 35mm. Is that with the preload backed all the way out? If so I might be inclined to agree with you the spring rate is a little on the high side but not enough to warrant buying a different spring. But since you seem to ride 2-up fairly commonly, I'd leave it alone. Curious, did you see any noticeable amount of stiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Fully extended 140mm (engine jacked up) Bike weight only 120mm Bike+me 105mm just to keep the terminology consistent, rider sag per above is 35mm. Is that with the preload backed all the way out? If so I might be inclined to agree with you the spring rate is a little on the high side but not enough to warrant buying a different spring. But since you seem to ride 2-up fairly commonly, I'd leave it alone. MY THOUGHTS TOO Is that with the preload backed all the way out? YES Curious, did you see any noticeable amount of stiction? NOT NOTICEABLY Read more: http://fz07.org/thread/2415/andreani-advanced-cartridge-kit?page=13&scrollTo=43371#ixzz3dG8JCeir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Pattonme, 35mm rider sag on a 130mm travel fork I think is a little excessive ( personal opinion ). That, for me, would be a good to too soft spring, depending on roads and how hard you brake when chucking it around. Now I appreciate that having a more controlled compression compression ramp means you can run a little further into your static travel , but that , surely would be on the edge of pitching under brakes. If you pull only an extra G under brakes that would use more than 70mm ( as you lose the extra advantage of the preload already applied to the first bit of travel). Even at that medium brake force you only have 60mm left for turning load and, on the road, surface irregularity. Or am I just too much of a hoon ( and ride on crappy roads)? Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 > Or am I just too much of a hoon ( and ride on crappy roads)? this ^^ hehe hehe At maximum threshold braking I like to see full travel - 15mm used. The extra 15 (or 20) is for handling bumps and trying to stay out of the fluid-lock. Well, the "rule of thumb" for STREET bikes is 0.3xfull=rider sag which is 39mm (up to 45, vs measured of 35) in this case. It's not off by much and if I were to bother to change springs, I'd simply replace one of the legs with the next rate lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I would agree.....and the real test is riding it. In my experience air space is also a spring relative to oil level ....generating a progressive action...... I do not get anything like the dive I had experienced on the standard forks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 That's a lot of pitch mate. Big rear wheel unload and possibility of chatter. If you acc early and move the weight back it would be not too bad, but if you have to carry the brake into the corner at speed and then have to trail brake the rear is gonna be on the edge of grip. Any surface irregularity and the bum is gonna get real light and the front maybe use it all. Just a thought. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I'll keep you posted the more miles I do. I will be on Vacation for the rest of June so no riding....when I get back I ride it to the UK so lots of nice fast roads and even more fast very bumpy pot-holed ones.....all that I know well and have ridden on with countless bikes over the years....I'll report back when I return from that trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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