Jump to content
The MT-07 Forum

Andreani Advanced Cartridge kit


pattonme

Recommended Posts

I have one more question - have to go some pages for the conversation though.
 
The directions for this kit say to remove the flange ( some guys are using a hand held grinder - not sure what I'll use, but it might be a metal cutting bandsaw. Might just find a machine shop) holding that plastic collar/guide at the bottom of the stanchion. It's probably far easier to just break that piece out. But doesn't leaving that flange create a smaller gap for the fluid to pass between the stanchion and the cartridge? I'm thinking having it gone will alleviate some of the issues.
 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> But doesn't leaving that flange create a smaller gap for the fluid to pass between the stanchion and the cartridge?
 
yes it does. I'm not convinced the slight reduction in passageway (25mm vs 24mm tube) crosses the threshold, however.
 
A bandsaw is the wrong tool. You're taking off very little metal, just enough to punch the guts out. A few seconds on a belt sander or a grinding wheel is sufficient to knock the lip off. Then all of the guts can come out.
 
To just remove the plastic collar (damper rod "seal") but leave everything else alone, you need to hit it with a chisel. A screw driver might work too.

  • Like 1
bannerfans_1095431.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@rick, I say go for it WRT the oil weights and see what you think.

  • Like 1
bannerfans_1095431.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The oil that came with my cartridges is Ohlins No 5 Viscosity 20,04 cSt at 40 degrees C Part number 01330-01 Created for Cartridges High viscosity low friction. (info from side of bottle)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The oil that came with my cartridges is Ohlins No 5 Viscosity 20,04 cSt at 40 degrees C Part number 01330-01 Created for Cartridges High viscosity low friction. (info from side of bottle)
well that's also interesting and good to know as I've seen Ohlins No 10 shipped with this set-up in the past. It was for bikes other than the FZ so who knows what's goin on. But No 10 well up in the 30 cST range
 
If that's what comes in mine, then I'll use that in the rebound side - it's only 1.6 cSt higher and that'll save me a few bucks. I'm still going lighter on the rebound side. Between what pattonme has gone on about and some minor complaints here and there and some harshness in compression that could not be dialed out, it'll be a lot easier to close the needle vale than open past WFO. 
 
 
 
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

> But doesn't leaving that flange create a smaller gap for the fluid to pass between the stanchion and the cartridge? 
yes it does. I'm not convinced the slight reduction in passageway (25mm vs 24mm tube) crosses the threshold, however.
 
A bandsaw is the wrong tool. You're taking off very little metal, just enough to punch the guts out. A few seconds on a belt sander or a grinding wheel is sufficient to knock the lip off. Then all of the guts can come out.
 
To just remove the plastic collar (damper rod "seal") but leave everything else alone, you need to hit it with a chisel. A screw driver might work too.
Sheesh, belt sander!  I have 2, 4x24" belt sanders. One that's stationary and one that'll run away at 20mph if you let got.  
I'm thinking that even though it won't make much difference in space, having a smooth surface for the fluid to flow past instead of lip  that might cause some swirling should be better for fluid movement. (stand back, I work for vascular surgeons - I get to listen about fluid, erm blood, flow dynamics all the dang time) 
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you remove the guts, the gap between the cartridge and the fork tube will be ~5mm. Any disturbance caused by the narrow edge will be completely irrelevant. Maybe you misunderstand the 'lip'. It's part of the fork tube that's been folded over the "barrel" in the bottom of the fork. Look again at picture [HASH]7 on post http://fz07.org/post/41876. The "barrel" is the dark colored section inside the fork. All of it's corners have been radiused. The 'lip' is the outermost silver "rounded" part. You grind that off and the barrel can slide out and you end up with 
 
2015-05-23%2016.14.23.jpg
 
 

  • Like 1
bannerfans_1095431.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Been intrested in fluid floe since I was a kid ( LOOOOOOONG time). Most research I have done was originally for designing sail boats stuff but then go interested in induction ( check out Gordon Blair's stuff on the web), then of course sonic stuff for 2 strokes ( where air starts acting like liguid). Again not definitive just some knowledge and you know how dangerous that is. The proof is in the dyno as most things.
BUT non round holes flow VERY badly ...full stop. This can be used, like anything else, if you have the knowledge, as it isn't linear. Maybe that's what they have done. Even an oval of the same crossection area does not flow as well as a round one. The arced ovals flow even worse ( per area)

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

bmwpowere36m3
Been intrested in fluid floe since I was a kid ( LOOOOOOONG time). Most research I have done was originally for designing sail boats stuff but then go interested in induction ( check out Gordon Blair's stuff on the web), then of course sonic stuff for 2 strokes ( where air starts acting like liguid). Again not definitive just some knowledge and you know how dangerous that is. The proof is in the dyno as most things. BUT non round holes flow VERY badly ...full stop. This can be used, like anything else, if you have the knowledge, as it isn't linear. Maybe that's what they have done. Even an oval of the same crossection area does not flow as well as a round one. The arced ovals flow even worse ( per area)
 
 
Its been a while since my fluid dynamics course, but most pistons I've seen have either "oval" or wedge shaped ports.... However some older ones have round ones. Regardless of their shape, the fluid immediately encounters the shim stack and must exert enough force to crack it open and change direction almost 90 degrees thru what would be a narrow slot.
 
All that friction, in part, adds to the circuits damping... not necessarily a bad thing.
 
I'd be more concerned with the port size and not shape. Too small and it'll act like a fixed orifice damper at high speeds, a bad thing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can someone please post a good photo of the lip I have to remove....before I start the job. I have looked at picture 7 in the earlier sequence... but I think any lip (on whatever it is) has already gone....Thanks in advance.
 
p.s. The Adreani picture instructions only show a loose bush in a lathe being machined, but it is not close enough to really see what is being done. Yet this thread seems to describe a process of lip removal while the bush is still in the tube....hence my slight confusion.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you remove the guts, the gap between the cartridge and the fork tube will be ~5mm. Any disturbance caused by the narrow edge will be completely irrelevant. Maybe you misunderstand the 'lip'. It's part of the fork tube that's been folded over the "barrel" in the bottom of the fork. Look again at picture [HASH]7 on post http://fz07.org/post/41876. The "barrel" is the dark colored section inside the fork. All of it's corners have been radiused. The 'lip' is the outermost silver "rounded" part. You grind that off and the barrel can slide out and you end up with  
 

Ya know, now that i go back and re-look at that #7 pict, it did confuse me a bit. i took that photo to represent how much space (only 1mm, wtf!) there'd be around the cartridge when it was all done - w/inserts removed.  You called it the upper tube. My addled brain translated that as the upper end on the stanchion - and that of course made no sense. 
Ok, thanks, I get it now. 
 
I'm probably gonna use the belt sander to remove that lip and the clean the edges smooth. May as well give the fluid a nice smooth surface 
 
 
 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can someone please post a good photo of the lip I have to remove....before I start the job. I have looked at picture 7 in the earlier sequence... but I think any lip (on whatever it is) has already gone....Thanks in advance. 
p.s. The Adreani picture instructions only show a loose bush in a lathe being machined, but it is not close enough to really see what is being done. Yet this thread seems to describe a process of lip removal while the bush is still in the tube....hence my slight confusion.

maybe this will help give perspective   https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113288
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@bigtwin, the bush (I've been calling it a barrel) is the big hunk of metal inside the fork. What you're machining off is the part of the fork tube that is folded over (probably 50T press) to keep said hunk of metal from pulling out. In pic [HASH]7 you see the cartridge, a slight gap to the hunk o' metal, and then a slivery ring. Take off the silvery ring.

bannerfans_1095431.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you.......
What stops the hunk from falling out after the mod?
Or is the hunk then discarded?
Sorry for sounding dumb.....I am sure it will be very obvious when I dismantle.....I am just trying to be clear in my mind and prepared.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Rick
Re. maybe this will help give perspective www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113288
 
Yes....now I get it! Many thanks Pattonme and Rick for their help and patience.
Dorian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

discard. Or make into wall ornament - you have one right? A parts wall and burn incense to our dear, departed parts? tie it to a piece of string and you have a plumb weight. swing it around and you have a weapon.

bannerfans_1095431.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just did my first bush removal on one leg (yes I know I said I'd do it Monday) But then I realised something.....
So Guys ....next dumb question.....what now holds the fork bottom on to the fork leg if the top caps are removed?? As far as I can see its only the fork seals......
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bolt that used to screw into the bottom of the damper rod thru the bottom of the slider will now screw into the bottom of the new cartridge. Once that fancy large nut at the top is attached to the damping rod and then screwed into the top of the stanchion, the cartridge now rate limits travel in both directions. That's what those plastic bumpers do

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks.....I am clear on that.....but my question was "what now holds the fork bottom on to the fork leg if the top caps are removed??" But of course I just realised it's the 'lock nut' under the top Cap Nut. Once that is removed the tube will/can seperate from the bottom slider and leave the spring damper assembly attached to the fork bottom by the bottom plug bolt. Just seems strange to me.
 
 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

bmwpowere36m3
Thanks.....I am clear on that.....but my question was "what now holds the fork bottom on to the fork leg if the top caps are removed??" But of course I just realised it's the 'lock nut' under the top Cap Nut. Once that is removed the tube will/can seperate from the bottom slider and leave the spring damper assembly attached to the fork bottom by the bottom plug bolt. Just seems strange to me. 
 

 
 
I assume you mean, what holds the upper chrome stanchion when you remove the fork cap... Nothing. With the fork cap removed, all that's keeping it from separating from the fork lower are the oil seals, bushings and wire clip. That's normal for cartridge rod forks. With the fork cap installed, attached to the damper rod, there is a stop within the cartridge that keeps the fork from over-extending.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What he said..
I was just chucking in an idea as to why the relative cross sectional areas may be as they are. As I said really the proof is in the pudding and what shows up on the shock dyno will really be the thing that matters , then you can set about finding what and where the problems may lie. ( eg oriface size inter alia)

Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.