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Andreani Advanced Cartridge kit


pattonme

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@rick, don't go with the lighter fluid on rebound.Well, you can do as you like, but I think you'll find it's self-defeating. It's about 450ml or so. If you mix based on that, then adding a few extra cc of heavier to get to the needed height isn't going to make any material difference.

heehee, that's pretty much what I said to the guy who uses a pressure washer to clean his chain and also runs it with 1" of play instead of the specified 2".  
OK, I'll stay with the Ohlins visc in the rebound side. I guess it would just bounce about too much with lighter fluid.
 
Good, I'll just order one of each.
 
The thing I guess i don't understand is how much of a role that needle valve plays vs. the shim stack. I was sorta under the impression it was there to fine tune. So if the shims/valve can't flow enough fluid, there's not enough flow to fine tune - even with them turned all the way soft? 
 
Maybe we should cut 1mm off of the end of the needle - just kidding. But, do you think that after that 4 turn index is established, backing off the cap 1/2 or 1 full turn before locking it down would help?
 
It would still only have 4 turns of adjustment, but the range (with that full turn extra) would start from 1 and go to 5.
 
I'm getting the feeling this cartridge would work better if both sides were rebound valved only and the compression came along for the ride the way it does in my Showas.
 
On it goes. I still haven't ordered the bushing kit (I'll be number 7?) or the fluid. 
 
 
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rebound needles are generally set to 1-2 turns out from seated (if using Showa taper), so in effect the orifice is ~half blocked. With the Andreani taper even after the full 4 turns I don't think it will be any less than still 2/3 blocked. If you need the needle seated to get desired behavior your shim stack is too light for the oil used. If all the way open, too heavy. The Andreani needle is making VERY small changes.
 
Don't fudge the needle position by not turning the cap all the way on. Keep it question free.
 
If you stall long enough maybe I'll just send you replacement pistons and shim stack...

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heh, heh, I'm not stalling. Just too dang much to do. If I could only find an indentured 16 year old to diligently do all the mundane chores, I'd have more time to play with the tools and toys. Retirement in a couple years will take care of that. Lots of time for the chores, and even some riding.
 
I'll round up the the extra bits necessary for the next weekend of rain and get at it.
 
I'm right around 1.25 turns out on the Futura's Showas. And 1/4 turn either way really does makes a huge difference. Wonder why Andreani went that route for the needles?
 
So w/o changing that needle shape we're stuck with a narrow adjustment range - double whammy - insufficient valves and too long a taper on the needles to compensate properly.
 
I put 125 back road miles on the Futura yesterday. Even at 13 years old, that bike's ride quality has such a refined feel to it (it's just rebound adj at both ends), compared to the FZ. I'll be happy to get within 75% of the same ride quality with these changes. The shock alone made a huge leap in that direction. So far so good.
 
 

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Hi Rick and Pattonme
I can confirm that both needles are actually fully out. I will continue to experiment while I am riding in UK and post on this thread. I can't imagine adrenani will want to help me as they are sold as race items and I actually think my set up would be fantastic on a track....but I will never ever be on one..so I will have to find a solution for myself. Pattonme we talked earlier in the thread about needle turns preset change which I now think will not help if it is a cartridge to tube dimension problem. But lighter oil is an easy check as part of the elimination process.

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If I could only find an indentured 16 year old
 
There are a zillion unemployed College grads, many with even "useful" degrees. They have tens of thousands of school loans to pay off. Granted, they might not work for peanuts or might not take instruction without thinking they know better than some 'old' guy. :)
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@bigtwin, I would try both the lighter oil in the Comp leg and set the needles to 6+ turns out if it tickles your fancy and have threads to spare.

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@bigtwin, I would try both the lighter oil in the Comp leg and set the needles to 6+ turns out if it tickles your fancy and have threads to spare.
 
 
Thanks Pattonme.... I will go that route when I'm back in the Netherlands and report back. Kind regards bigTwin
 
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Now back home. This week I hope to track down some Ohlin 2 oil so that I can do the next experiment. The return journey today was 400 miles. I made the journey with the fork needle settings set as follows.... compression 2.5 out and rebound .5 out. Most of the time I was happy with the fork action. But on rippled surfaces it seemed overwhelmed and felt unable to deal with the damping/recovery speed that is required in patter situations.... also the whole front of the Bike really jumped when striking expansion joint tarmac ridges.....even so the Bike remained on track and the handlebars did not shake. I just don't like the jolting. Apart from these observations that I did not like .....the ride otherwise was very tight and un-flustered. A world away from standard suspension and feeling closer to more exotic setups.

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With those settings your forks might be pumping up (and losing travel) on the rebound side - fluid can't get back thru that rebound valve fast enough cause you've got it nearly closed - on those stutter bumps that I'd call a washboard surface.
 
The lighter oil in the compression side will hopefully help deal with those big hits like expansion joint jolts.
 
i think the average rebound setting (conventional forks - one each side) is set 1-1.5 turns out. With a Showa needle having a much steeper angle (needs less turns to have a bigger effect) than these Andreani needles, i'd guess both of your adjustments are just way too closed for comfort (pun intended) - and let's face it - having a tire come off the ground is not exactly a suspension under control
 
W/o knowing 1st hand how it feels, from all these conversations and your own observations, i would have the compression side backed maxxed out those 4 turns (that will soften the blow from quick rises in the road) and start with the rebound somewhere 2 turns out. Then only mess with the rebound side if you feel it's not as solid as it could be.
 
I think even after you put the lighter fluid in the compression side (only) that would still be a good place to start playing
 
My fork seals are here, the proper lower bushings are on their way and my fork oil has ben ordered and shipped.
 
on it goes

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With those settings your forks might be pumping up (and losing travel) on the rebound side - fluid can't get back thru that rebound valve fast enough cause you've got it nearly closed - on those stutter bumps that I'd call a washboard surface.  
The lighter oil in the compression side will hopefully help deal with those big hits like expansion joint jolts.

I agree with @rick, run the C all the way open for now and with the lighter oil. Expansion joints are a high-velocity event in both directions. You may not be feeling the initial hit so much as the "landing" after the fact.
 
I hope you can find a convenient circuit near your home with sufficiently varied surface on which to test.
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As you have both been following my comments you will know that I started the UK trip with both sides 4 turns out. but then it felt as though the spring was just doing its own thing and I was really feeling the bumps....so I started to increase the damping. I tried many combinations and there was a 'feeling' that things were generally better where I ended up.
 
Re. I agree with rick, run the C all the way open for now and with the lighter oil. Expansion joints are a high-velocity event in both directions. You may not be feeling the initial hit so much as the "landing" after the fact.
At speed these happen so fast its hard to read.... but there is a 'bah bam' as the front and rear hit the ridge and it could well be the "landing"
I might have to order the Ohlin 2 oil as there are no dealers near to me.
 

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With those settings your forks might be pumping up (and losing travel) on the rebound side - fluid can't get back thru that rebound valve fast enough cause you've got it nearly closed - on those stutter bumps that I'd call a washboard surface.  
The lighter oil in the compression side will hopefully help deal with those big hits like expansion joint jolts.
 
i think the average rebound setting (conventional forks - one each side) is set 1-1.5 turns out. With a Showa needle having a much steeper angle (needs less turns to have a bigger effect) than these Andreani needles, i'd guess both of your adjustments are just way too closed for comfort (pun intended) - and let's face it - having a tire come off the ground is not exactly a suspension under control
 
W/o knowing 1st hand how it feels, from all these conversations and your own observations, i would have the compression side backed maxxed out those 4 turns (that will soften the blow from quick rises in the road) and start with the rebound somewhere 2 turns out. Then only mess with the rebound side if you feel it's not as solid as it could be.
 
I think even after you put the lighter fluid in the compression side (only) that would still be a good place to start playing
 
My fork seals are here, the proper lower bushings are on their way and my fork oil has ben ordered and shipped.
 
on it goes
 
Rick.....I will be very happy when you are using your Andreani cartridges as it will be great to have another informed opinion.

 
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As you have both been following my comments you will know that I started the UK trip with both sides 4 turns out. but then it felt as though the spring was just doing its own thing and I was really feeling the bumps....so I started to increase the damping. I tried many combinations and there was a 'feeling' that things were generally better where I ended up. 


The feeling of the suspension getting more controlled and not bounded about like a freely moving spring is from turning the rebound side up. 
 
The whack you get in the bars when hitting a patch or an expansion joint is from the compression side. 
 
That you've had the rebound into the 1 turn range is actually a good thing as that's the ballpark you'd expect most for adjustable forks.
 
Just for grins set the rebound at 1 turn out and the compression side 4 turns out and see if that gives a good (well, acceptable)  mix of comfort over sharp bumps, but is still well controlled. I don't recall you mentioning a combination like this. 
 
You should be able to find BelRay fluids in EU http://www.belray.com/locator/524?did=556   If you can't get the Ohlins, see if you can find the 3WT  You might also be able to find Golden Spectro's UltraLight   http://www.spectro-oils.com/dealer-locator/denmark-distributors/
 
http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/?title=Suspension_Fluid
 
 
 
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hahah..... I was with/ahead of you....I already set them to 4 and 1.... Rain tomorrow so will test on Wednesday. Roads here in my part  of the Netherlands are different to the UK. Also difficult to go at the speeds I was at last week...but I'll try!!
Thanks for oil info. There is an Ohlin dealer not too far away from me. Closed today open tommorow (Tuesday) so I'll call them.
 

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I found pictures of Ohlins 2.5, but no one selling it. Got the feeling it had been discontinued. Hopefully you'll find some.
 
I think those settings will be very telling - whatever speed you are traveling as there's always sharp edged bumps and dips to deal with. I think you'll get an idea pretty quickly. And if it's better, but still a bit hard edged over bumps, then the lighter fluid in the compression side should make it better yet.
 
BTW, traveling at a continuous 90 mph here would become expensive in a hurry.
 
 

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90MPH is not normally possible in most cases netherlands and Belgium France and UK .....but I have some 'safe' roads where it is possible (for testing purposes of course!) I have found ohlins 2 which is 11 centiStokes.... so approximately half that of ohlin 5, as quoted on the bottles.I hope to go to the shop Thursday.

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actually a more sedate speed would be a good idea. how fast you travel is not important, as long as you're above say 40mph.

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Hi Pattonme
Yes you are right regarding speed. I only push it when I ride with my two brothers in the UK. Otherwise most of the time I mostly potter about. I just thought a good test of the front end was to push it a bit.I was bouncing my Buell suspension in the garage this afternoon and realised that the rear shock rebound damping was much slower on return compared to the MT-07 ohlin.I rate my buellXB suspension as quite good.... So I firmed up the setting until the return speed was the same. Went from 14 out to 4 out before it matched. I rode around local roads a bit ......over speed humps and general imperfections and there was quite an improvement. So the quest continues.
 
There was a write up in a UK Bike magazine (Performance Bikes) this month, where the journalist took his MT-07 staff Bike to a track day and decided that although the engine was competitive ....the suspension needs attention ...I guess we could have told him before he went racing!

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Update.
HK Suspension specialists are based in the Netherlands. I rode there yesterday to get some Ohlins 2 oil. When I arrived they asked what I wanted it for... so I told them....intrigued the 'main man' asked if he could come out to see the bike. He sat on and dived the forks and bounced the rear end and said I was 'close' but not dead on with adjustment. He ran off for some tools and a tape measure and a colleague and started to bounce the bike over and over with adjustments until he was satisfied. I was with my wife and he set it for the two of us and suggested adjusting a little for when I rode alone. They have a big workshop and a huge 40,000 parts inventory....he showed me a stack of Andreani cartridge boxes and a parts bin full of Andreani springs etc. They do Ohlins, White Power, Wilbers etc etc and theyhave vacuum chambers for rear shock work etc etc. There were a number of racing bikes in for setting up and loose front forks everywhere with job labels on. Very impressive.
 
My wife and I had a 60 mile country-road return ride home. The suspension behaved well and I am now going to live with it for a while. I will be back in the UK August so I'll test again on familiar roads....
 

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nice to have expertise close by for hands-on help.
 
OK, don't leave us/me hangin - details on the settings please.
 
So out 1 turn on the rebound and 4 out on the compression was close? Are you still at 4 clicks out on the shock? I'm currently at 17 as I'd prefer to not have those floppy-dog turn signals break off in the middle of a ride. Our roads here are far from smooth
 
My suspension fluid showed up yesterday. I, of course, only have enough of the heavier wt. fluid to do one side. If yer still near maxed out on the compression side, I'll carry on with my plan to use the lighter weight fluid in the compression side.
 
Still waiting on the bushing kit, so won't be opening things up until that comes.
 
BTW, when I ride 2-up, I don't touch the front fork settings on my Futura. All I do is add a bunch of preload (remote preload adjusters are a very nice thing) to the shock and turn the rebound in one click, from 16 to 15.
 
 

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Settings front......2 compression ....2.5 rebound...and zero pre-load Then on rear 14mm preload....4 clicks out.rear spring 120....front spring not known (yet)

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Hi, just got the kit, haven`t mounted it yet, what oil do you use ? Got ohlins shock as well big improvement. I want to take mt to the track in august, live in Danmark by the way so sorry for my English.
 

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Just had a look at the spring that was put on mine - it's a -34/100. To me, that seems like a lot of spring for a 400 lb motorcycle with a 135 lb rider aboard. That rate is frequently recommended for a rider carryin another 70 lbs or so. My Futura, already 130 lbs heavier, has a 95Nm spring OE and that's probably what i should have on this Ohlins.
 
My static sag with that same 14mm of preload on the spring is no more than 5mm. I have to wonder if yours is not completely topped out with no weight aboard? I might just take out 4 more turns of preload. That's still not gonna change the rate though.
 
we clearly have different preferences for seat of pants suspension feel - and that's fine.

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Hi, just got the kit, haven`t mounted it yet, what oil do you use ? Got ohlins shock as well big improvement. I want to take mt to the track in august, live in Danmark by the way so sorry for my English.
These kits are suppose to come with a liter of Ohlins 5 fluid. Some of us seem to be not so lucky. Ohlins 5 has a 16.5 cSt viscosity - any fluid that's close should be OK
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that seems like a lot of spring for a 400 lb motorcycle with a 15 lb rider aboard.
Guess you haven't looked at the spring on t he R3. 1000lb/in
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