pattonme Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I swear a $10 a child's toy from Toys R'Us is probably made better. I'm just flat amazed the damper rod is such utter crap. 1. the compression orifices are HALF the required size. I think I'd have to go back to 1991-97 on the Honda CB750 (or the GS500E) to find an example with holes less than 6mm in diameter. Regardless of trying to improve things with a Gold Valve Emulator, these holes need to be 8-10mm in diameter to have sufficient flow when encountering sharp bumps and high shaft velocities. If they wanted to design some bottom-out resistance, then at least set the higher holes to the large size. 2. I couldn't believe my eyes - the rebound orifice is PUNCHED, not drilled. And let's not forget at least 2x if not 3x too big. Do you wonder why the forks don't have any stability? This is no small reason why. 3. They didn't include a simple washer under the fork cap. Yes, it might seem like a small thing but the entirety of the spring's coiled up energy is applied to the thin-wall preload spacer which then directly acts on the soft aluminum face of the fork cap. Naturally when you spin on/off the fork cap the sharp edges of the spacer chew up the surface and you end up with aluminum tendrils. And for want of a 3 cent washer which EVERYBODY else supplies in their assemblies. Un-$!)(*$ real! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Global Moderator Guru Posted April 7, 2015 Global Moderator Share Posted April 7, 2015 Thanks for sharing. Yes, it is becoming clear that the FZ07 could use a 'little' help in the suspension department. The pictures need to be in your public Dropbox folder. You then copy/paste the Public Link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtmn Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 yup ssssoooo bad I was surprised to see how bad the Yamaha parts were and how simple the fix was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geteup Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 @pattonme The cartirdge retrofit that you do will eliminate all of the cheap shortcuts and omitions to the forks right? That does sound like a great deal...... 87' Honda VFR 700 F2 (sold) 03' Honda CBR F4I (donated) 05' Yamaha R1 (sold) 15' FZ-o7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member snowdriftless Posted April 7, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted April 7, 2015 I will be investing in fork upgrades before I do exhaust. Probably not the cartridge retrofit but at least something better than the stock fork internals. P1: Vice? I have no vice, I'm as pure as the driven snow! P2: Yeah but you've been drifting All the gear all the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 @pattonme cartirdge retrofit that you do will eliminate all of the cheap shortcuts .... absolutely. ALL of the guts are removed and cartridges put in their place. The SV650 (any gen) has a much better quality of damper rod. But I don't know if the diameters match. But if nothing else you can drill the (esp. upper set of) holes and use JB weld (make sure the surface is CLEAN) the punched rebound hole shut and then drill it to say 1mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 well, it is a $7k bike after all. This is how they kept costs down on an otherwise nicely done bike. What do the internals of a new Gladuis' ( stupid name, uglier bike) forks look like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 Gladius is just a re-tooled/re-framed Gen2 SV. I look at it as "it's a bloody $7000 bike, this shit is inexcusable". If it was a $3500 bike (Ninja 250, Honda Rebel 250, etc.) I would give them a pass. Kayaba makes these parts in a thousands on a production line so each one is a mere handful of dollars. If it costs $200 for the entire set of forks I'll be amazed and the expensive bits are the fork tubes both lower and upper. Yamaha should be ashamed of themselves for spec'ing such inferior gear. Last I heard the FZ is made in Thailand where labor is cheap vis a vis Japan. Which would you rather have? Numerous silly "beauty" covers and farkles or by god a preload adjustable fork cap? Or perish the thought a cartridge fork from the YZF6R (thundercat, not R6) from 10 years ago that worked pretty good? Just look at the nonsense under the gas tank. The bike was designed by accountants pretending to be engineers and not one of them was a rider apparently. The 80's called, they want their UJM back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Global Moderator mjh937 Posted April 7, 2015 Global Moderator Share Posted April 7, 2015 The FZ-07 is made in Japan. I think the Gladius is made in Thailand though. That is still not an excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruizin Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Be care careful in this public thread please. To be fair to other supporting Vendors, all questions about Patton's service need to be asked in either his board or in a PM. This is a general FZ-07 Forks thread and Patton is doing a great job of keeping it general.. Yamaha MT-10 ForumYamaha Tracer 900 Forum Yamaha Ténéré 700 Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roninracing Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Gladius is just a re-tooled/re-framed Gen2 SV. I look at it as "it's a bloody $7000 bike, this Shet is inexcusable". If it was a $3500 bike (Ninja 250, Honda Rebel 250, etc.) I would give them a pass. Kayaba makes these parts in a thousands on a production line so each one is a mere handful of dollars. If it costs $200 for the entire set of forks I'll be amazed and the expensive bits are the fork tubes both lower and upper. Yamaha should be ashamed of themselves for spec'ing such inferior gear. Last I heard the FZ is made in Thailand where labor is cheap vis a vis Japan. Which would you rather have? Numerous silly "beauty" covers and farkles or by god a preload adjustable fork cap? Or perish the thought a cartridge fork from the YZF6R (thundercat, not R6) from 10 years ago that worked pretty good? Just look at the nonsense under the gas tank. The bike was designed by accountants pretending to be engineers and not one of them was a rider apparently. The 80's called, they want their UJM back. I still need to break down and take the front forks off to see if the YZF6R I have in the basement will fit. The caliper mount is different on the lover fork leg but I may be able to mount up a spare set of rotors I have from the 6R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted April 17, 2015 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 see if the YZF6R I have in the basement will fit. The caliper mount is different on the lover fork leg but I may be able to mount up a spare set of rotors I have from the 6R. The 6R has 41mm forks too and the FZ07 seems like it has pretty good brakes. The easiest thing to do it take the upper tube and guts from the 6R and drop it into the FZ's lowers. Compensate for any length differences (I suspect the 6R is longer) to restore original geometry and now you've got at least 2-way adjustable cartridge forks. Ok, it's not quite that simple. The complication will likely arrive from the fork bolt. If you luck out the bolt for the 6R is the same or smaller diameter as the FZ. But is it long enough to reach? and where are the bleed holes located? Do they clear the floor of the fork lower? And does the cartridge support aka fluid cup properly space the end of the cartridge off the floor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Thanks for this pattoneme. I have a set of gold valve I haven't got to yet ( too busy and away). The pics and post allowed me to make some decisions before I get them apart. Punched rebound hole.... Drills must be too expensive. Actually punching would do a better job IF it were back mandrilled but this is not good. Have you gold valved a set of these forks. Any tips or findings perculiar to this bike. I have used gold valves for years both in my racing bikes and road bikes ( where applicable) so I like em and am familiar with them. Never swapped a conventional fork to cartridge so really should have given it a go since they are available, even if just for the experience. They are expensive though. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 > Have you gold valved a set of these forks. no. I wasted my time on GVEs on 4 different bikes a decade ago. I've since seen the light. > They (ed. cartridges) are expensive though The AK-20 kit sure is, but you do get a professional and excellent product. There are alternative sources, just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I have used gold valves on every race bike and most of my road bikes with conventional forks for years. Need a bit of messy fiddling but I have always had pretty good results. Helped to have a really good suspension guy to advise me though and it made the most difference on my track bikes mostly I guess cause I was more prepared to put the time into fine tuning them. Even made the godaweful Sachs 150 front end work ( superlight class racing at our club. Same bike Jack Miller started his road racing on. Special deal for one bike racing. Probably why he is so good at carrying speed in corners cause they sure don't accelerate real quick) . Made the ER6N actually track properly. But I take your point. For a whole lot of reasons a well designed cartridge set is going to be better. Was condsidering the Adreani's but just too expensive for a retired bloke for a road only bike. And I do like split duty concept forks ( rebound mostly one side/compression other) though I have some reservations on conventional forks because they rely on the stiffness of the axle to keep them in line a lot more than USD's. If I am unhappy with the GV's, I may see if I can find a cartridge set. Sally ( my girlfriend) had a SV650 and the rods were a joke. Didn't look like they did anything ( and felt like it). Guess they have used the same rods since the bike was first designed forever ago. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 actually the Gen2 SV damper rods are of much higher quality (in materials and machining) than Gen1, FZ07 or EX650. However it doesn't change diddly squat to (lack of) performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Here's was a 2005, a EFI one, I think but just a plain 3 hole damper rod ( I think there was only one rebound hole but there may have been a tandem pair). Wasn't badly made, just lacked complexity and any sort of dynamic control. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 @gregjet wrote: ... concerned with the position and size of the rebound hole. Any thoughts on where and what size with the gold valves. I was going to solder it shut and redrill. I am guessing too much front compression as you (ed. @pattonme) allude to, but it would be nice to ballpark the rebound while I have them apart. To be fair, I haven't worked on remediating damper rods in quite a few years. The primary problem is that there is just enormous leakage in the system. Once you solder it closed, I would try the following iterative states. You can do this at your bench. Install damper rod, and add enough oil to generously cover the piston. Semi-install the upper bushing but don't bother with springs, seals, or cap. 1 - no hole w/ 15w oil in one leg 2 - no hole w/ 20w oil in other leg can you feel any difference between them when you pull hard on the tube? 3 - add spring and spacer that yields 5-10mm of preload and cap. Push down hard and see if you can feel any differences on the rebound stroke. I expect it'll take 30W oil before you notice much in the way of slowing anything down. If so, then the orifice is irrelevant. If by some miracle 15 or 20W oil yielded a noticeable slow-down in the stroke, pick the lighter of the weights, install the forks, and go ride for a while. Smooth, bumpy, washboard, sharp "curbs" and see how you like it. Keep good notes if you can. If it seems like the rebound is too slow (general harshness) then come back to the shop and drill a 0.8mm (1/32") in both, re-fill, reassemble, and re-test. Next try 1mm hole. The reason why I ditched the damper-rod+GVE route is assuming the cartridge shim-stack isn't completely, wildly off, all these hours spent doing multiple rebuilds, re-fills, and drilling, etc can be reduced to ~30 minutes of twisting the adjusters a few clicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I don't need convincing that a decent cartridge is better than damper rods. Fully support you on this one. I just had already bought the Goldies before I found this forum and your posts. That plus I like a challenge . That's why I bought the mt07 in the first place . It's a depowered 50HP bike is Australia and I wanted to see if I could make it into a serious fun bike. The bike seemed to have potential to be a good handling light bike with fixable flaws. I will have a really good look at everything especially slip tolerances. I was going with a 1mm hole. Could even try to make a set of aluminium rods, I guess. That would allow me to close up some gaps and improve the leakage. Might even get me a few extra mm of travel. I might make a cap weight so I can get a more measureable comparative damping rate. A bit primitive but a touch hard to justify buying a shock dyno. I am waiting for some preload adjuster fork caps to arrive before I start work on the forks. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 @cassecou wrote: "Its just because its a cheap bike. I am talking Japanese cheap, not Chinese cheap mind you." I don't know about that anymore. I think the FZ07 is borderline Chinese "cheap". Witness the difference between a FZ07 damper rod and one from the R3. Both Yamaha and the R3 is the cheaper bike, remember. Top is R3. The rebound hole is drilled and actually the "right" size. Oh, and the threads were pretty good by comparison. Even the black "oil ring" actually fit snug to the point that I had to shake/push the damper rod out wereas the FZ07 is so loose it'll slide out on it's own if you but barely tip the stanchion. I think my theory about the FZ07/9 being done by an inexperienced, straight out of school engineering teams is getting stronger by the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member username Posted August 24, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted August 24, 2015 So are you going to make pogo sticks with the fz 07 shocks or did I just waste my time reading this? What a misleading title.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 So is the R3 damper a possible part swap? I'm guessing it isn't going to be something you can just order up from Yamaha, and probably cost prohibitive if so, but one can hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 So is the R3 damper a possible part swap? I dont' see why not. 1WD-F3170-00-00 seems to go for $27'ish. But that same $50 could go toward springs. you're going to have to replace the fork oil with something heavier with the R3 damper rod or the FZ one. I doubt you'll be overwhelmed by the results though. If you *really* want to stay with damper rods for some reason (maybe already have/only afford GVEs), then it might be worth the swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 well I already put a set of .85 racetechs I pulled out of a set of crashed SV forks, and 15w. this might make that a little better still. thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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