Wrong fork bushings installed at factory - heavy wear ensues

[Guest unknown]

I would suggest going to the dealer and talking to them first. If they try to charge you, have them contact Yamaha and go from there. At this point I don't recommend spending money to get it fixed as the problem isn't that well known yet and not all bikes may be affected. I was told directly that Yamaha will replace it under warranty.

[rick]

Well, that's excellent news. But it would sure be nice if they could come up with a range of build dates that were affected. I was just about mentally prepared to buy the parts and spend a weekend doing this. But if I don't have to open up a brand new fork (or let someone else do it) I'd rather not. I did want to make sure the front axle was well greased. The back one was just barely so.
 
Of course, coming up with a build date might just not be impossible. Have to believe if they find a couple more worn, Yamaha will wind up recalling all of them, even if there's only a couple affected.
 
Guess we'll have to be a bit patient or decide to be proactive. Still, this is progressing amazingly quick and you guys get a big thanx on that.
 
It's time to say hello to the dealer and get them prepared. This will not be a fun conversation.
 
 
 

[Guest unknown]

@rick Unfortunately, this problem is so new that they don't know what bikes are affected yet. They are working now to determine the dates of which bikes are affected. As soon as they can narrow it down, they will let us know.

[hippiebikerchick]

I am somewhat relieved to hear this problem may not affect all bikes. I hope we can find out more soon and am glad Yamaha is now aware of the problem and intends to correct it. In my conversations with my local suspension tuner, this is what they have said:
 
 
Hi, So to fix the issues there are two ways:
 
1) Service forks, add
preload, washers, bushings, fixing damper rod, oil
roughly $345 plus tax (more
of a band aid fix in the sense of no springs
to support the weight of the bike
& you)
 
2) Service forks, add correct rate springs ,spacers, washers,
bushings,
fixing damper rod, oil roughly $485 (this is the correct
way)
 
Does any of this sound reasonable to you? I am hoping to wait a bit and Yamaha will pick up the tab or some of the tab.

[rick]

Yep, tough to be patient . Breath!
 
My avatar bike (aka, "the brown stain" - only friends would do such a thing) was the 1st of 3 - - -s over some decades. I've experienced some stonewallin' over obvious problems waiting to happen, that happened, and still weren't problems. lol. The ink on these pages is barely dry with this, good on Yamaha for are acting so quick.
 
Hopefully, Yamaha will also reimburse you for labor and parts, even if you were in there anyway for another reason.
 
 

[pattonme]

> 1) ... add preload ... no springs to support the weight of the bike & you
 
Geez, what's the point? The FZ07 already has way too much preload in the system to compensate for Yamaha choosing the wrong spring rates in the first place.
 
485-345=140 for springs? Heck, Traxxion Dyanamics doesn't charge that much. I can provide Sonic for $75 vs their website price of $85. (in their eyes I'm a suspension supplier so I get a discount).
 
The standard rate at a Racetech service center is $135 for labor. Oil is $10-20 depending how fancy you want to get. They'll charge you $40 for their "super slick" bushings (WARN: they may not be using the correct size!). So Let's round up to $200 all in. I forget if Racetech charges for taking the forks off/on (probably) so let's add another 1hr of shop-rate labor $80 to the price. Your tuner is padding that bill just a bit IMO.
 

[hippiebikerchick]

Well, it also includes labor of taking the forks off and putting them back on.
 
I don't know enough about any of this to really know what anybody is talking about.

[rick]

I am somewhat relieved to hear this problem may not affect all bikes. I hope we can find out more soon and am glad Yamaha is now aware of the problem and intends to correct it. In my conversations with my local suspension tuner, this is what they have said: 
 
Hi, So to fix the issues there are two ways:
 
1) Service forks, add
preload, washers, bushings, fixing damper rod, oil
roughly $345 plus tax (more
of a band aid fix in the sense of no springs
to support the weight of the bike
& you)
 
2) Service forks, add correct rate springs ,spacers, washers,
bushings,
fixing damper rod, oil roughly $485 (this is the correct
way)
 
Does any of this sound reasonable to you? I am hoping to wait a bit and Yamaha will pick up the tab or some of the tab.

It's not like there are no springs in there OE. the springs are only wrong if the sag with you on the bike is wrong and adding spacers or preload adjusters can't fix make it right.  
The damping could sure use some help, but at 135 lbs and no track use in my future, I don't have a big issue with the springs. I suspect that with better damping, I'd feel the difference after the fact and then never want to go back. I rode bikes for decades that handled far worse after spending loads of money than the FZ does stock. I just adapt. 
 
Seems the Traxxion Dynamics route mentioned earlier or similar for springs and pseudo-cartridge damping set to your weight and riding intentions is a decent price alternative. I'd do that work myself (and I'm thinking on it) . You'll pay extra for labor. 
 
You've logged a fair number of miles in a short time. Were you unhappy with how it performed. It doesn't matter what guys who are heavier and ride faster think on the subject. Don't get caught up in the swirl. If yer not happy with it, then use this occasion to fix it. If you are OK with how it goes down the road, then have the bushings looked at. They might just be fine and you'll put another 5k miles and save money for gasoline. 

[qjohnson]

So let me just get this straight real quick.
 
Okay so there's a problem with the bushings. So if I were to get an upgraded forks setup installed will I have fixed this wrong bushing problem along with the fork upgrade? Or will I still have to buy the right bushings in addition to the fork kit?
 
I'm asking this because I've been looking at upgraded fork kits and rear shocks for a while now and really want to do those but I just need a little clarity wether I need to also purchase the correct bushings or not. Thanks a bunch!
 
Edit: if there is a recall anytime soon I may have them put the right bushings in along with the fork upgrade kit and pay the additional labor of course. Might as well do it all at the same time.
 

[pattonme]

Not to swing this completely off tangent... (should I start a new thread)?
 
> the springs are only wrong if the sag with you on the bike is wrong and adding spacers or preload adjusters can't fix make it right
 
Yes and no. The "correct" spring rate for 140-150lb is at least 0.75 and Traxxion is of the opinion 0.8kg/mm. But leaving that aside, you can tell if the spring rate you have is wrong when you compare static sag vs rider sag. If to get the correct rider sag (~35-40mm or 1/3 of travel) you have to wind in a ton of preload (or use longer spacers) and the static sag goes to less than say 20mm, then the spring rate is too weak. Another quick rule of thumb is if the preload needed is in excess of 15mm, you have the wrong rate. No one is staying that using springs off by 0.1 is lethal. It's not. Just the other week I dealt with a guy on a Kawasaki Concourse (580lb ? bike) that was running I think it was .7 springs with something like 30mm of preload. He had a really tough time wrapping his head around the fact that all of his complaints about stability and dive was because the bike should have been equipped with 1.0 or even higher. "but the factory ..." "is full of sh*t" was my none too politic retort.
 
I'm not here to drum up sales of springs. I mentioned it simply as a data point. Nor to twist people's arms into buying stuff they don't know how to use, or frankly aren't experienced enough riders to recognize the deficiencies of the bike they're sitting on. If all you've ridden are budget bikes (I argue somthing with a $7000 price tag is no longer budget and deserves an honest effort from the factory), then one doesn't know that it's not supposed to behave like that.

[Guest Ralph]

Will this gap allow oil to bypass the damping valves and lead to less effective damping?

[rick]

There might be a problem with the bushings! Is there a problem with all of them, Yamaha has found one that was correct so no. Stay tuned.
 
The bushings are bearings that keep the hard chrome plated stanchion from wearing out the inside of the alloy sliders. If they look perfect and the disassembly leaves them w/o harm, there's really no need to replace them. If ya had 10 k miles and some normal wear, then a shop would replace them. I suspect you'd pay for the bushings but not extra to have them put on as that's not much time compared to the rest of the job.. The seals probably get dinged in the process as they have to be removed and unless you can fill the fork with oil and compress of the fork hard enough to pop the seal out, it's not gonna fare well being popped out with the tubes.
 
pattonme will be along if this is completely FOS

[rick]

Not to swing this completely off tangent... (should I start a new thread)? 
> the springs are only wrong if the sag with you on the bike is wrong and adding spacers or preload adjusters can't fix make it right
 
Yes and no. The "correct" spring rate for 140-150lb is at least 0.75 and Traxxion is of the opinion 0.8kg/mm. But leaving that aside, you can tell if the spring rate you have is wrong when you compare static sag vs rider sag. If to get the correct rider sag (~35-40mm or 1/3 of travel) you have to wind in a ton of preload (or use longer spacers) and the static sag goes to less than say 20mm, then the spring rate is too weak. Another quick rule of thumb is if the preload needed is in excess of 15mm, you have the wrong rate. No one is staying that using springs off by 0.1 is lethal. It's not. Just the other week I dealt with a guy on a Kawasaki Concourse (580lb ? bike) that was running I think it was .7 springs with something like 30mm of preload. He had a really tough time wrapping his head around the fact that all of his complaints about stability and dive was because the bike should have been equipped with 1.0 or even higher. "but the factory ..." "is full of sh*t" was my none too politic retort.
 
I'm not here to drum up sales of springs. I mentioned it simply as a data point. Nor to twist people's arms into buying stuff they don't know how to use, or frankly aren't experienced enough riders to appreciate the deficiencies of the bike they're sitting on. If all you've ridden are budget bikes (I argue somthing with a $7000 price tag is no longer budget), then one doesn't know that it's not supposed to behave like that.

Would you consider moving to SW PA?  
 
 

[pattonme]

@qjohnson
> So if I were to get an upgraded forks setup installed will I have fixed this wrong bushing problem
> along with the fork upgrade? Or will I still have to buy the right bushings in addition to the fork kit?
 
No idea since you didn't specify which kit you're thinking about. Neither the Traxxion Dynamics kit nor any of the "drop in" upgrades (cartridge or otherwise, Matris, some Italian outfit) typically include wear items nor do they call it out. Whenever you take the forks apart, you should always replace the oil seals. It's just a good idea since you might have nicked something or if your tubes have hardened bugs and stuff on them, you may have scored the lips. It's $10 worth of piece of mind.
 
I would bet money that the replacement bushings you can buy from RaceTech and Traxxion are the wrong ones. Shoot, I had the Racetech parts guy at HQ argue with me that the Gen1 and Gen2 SV650 uses the same lower bushing despite the one being 4mm narrower than the other. The only way to be sure is to bring the bushings in yourself. Either from a All-Balls kit, or whatever the correct yamaha part number is (once we get it from our contact - or you go look it up from the XV650 model year I posted in the first post).
 

[qjohnson]

Thanks very much! @pattonme

[pattonme]

@Ralph
> Will this gap allow oil to bypass the damping valves and lead to less effective damping?
Like @rick so eloquently said, no the two are completely unrelated.
 
> Yamaha has found one that was correct so no. Stay tuned.
 
We'll see. I asked our Yamaha contact what exactly did he measure to conclude he found a good example. No answer as yet. I'm with you, I sure hope this is isolated to an early run.

[pattonme]

IMPORTANT!!
 
<quote> from our guy at Yamaha
There isn't a case number or anything like that to use at the moment. Please don't advise the guys on the forums to flock to the dealers just yet. If anyone turns up at a dealer with fork problems AND there is a defect, obviously we would cover it under warranty. If a dealer takes it apart and there isn't anything wrong, the customer would likely get stuck with a bill. I don't want to do anyone like that.
...
If somebody is having trouble or does experience excessive wear / incorrect bushings the dealers can call the techline for instructions on retrieving sample parts.
</quote>
 
So everybody just sit tight. You're not going to crash and maim yourself over this. Yamaha has to follow procedure. It will take some time. In the mean time, any forks handed to me I will of course remedy.

[Cruizin]

Again feel free to send the Yamaha rep my email fz07forums@gmail.com He can log in and post anything he wants, or I can post announcements for him.

[FZRDR]

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag422/pics4me2/74A0213B-D6A8-4922-AAC8-71658B9CA3A8_zpsxo4onnqe.jpg
While you guys/gals are contemplating the forks........replace that rear shock.....your ride will improve dramatically 

[Guest unknown]

IMPORTANT!! 
<quote> from our guy at Yamaha
There isn't a case number or anything like that to use at the moment. Please don't advise the guys on the forums to flock to the dealers just yet. If anyone turns up at a dealer with fork problems AND there is a defect, obviously we would cover it under warranty. If a dealer takes it apart and there isn't anything wrong, the customer would likely get stuck with a bill. I don't want to do anyone like that.
...
If somebody is having trouble or does experience excessive wear / incorrect bushings the dealers can call the techline for instructions on retrieving sample parts.
</quote>
 
So everybody just sit tight. You're not going to crash and maim yourself over this. Yamaha has to follow procedure. It will take some time. In the mean time, any forks handed to me I will of course remedy.

Sorry, I should have clarified. Only go to the dealer if you are having issues with your lower bushings. I should have been more clear. It's a catch 22 for most people now.  

[mjh937]

How would this manifest itself in normal riding? Should we be looking for something specific to know we might have a problem?

[rick]

Hmm, if it takes 2-3k miles for the teflon lining to wear off, the next thing to start wearing is the aluminum inside the slider. That's not gonna happen all of a sudden.
 
My guess, it'll probably happen so gradually, that most of us mortals will not feel it until it's really bad and the sliders need to be replaced. That's the biggest problem. And it's a fair amount of work to just get a look. Pattonme can do it in his sleep of course, but even yer average dealer probably doesn't do a fork tear down all that often unless he's sponsoring a dirt bike rider.
 
Think about how tires wear gradually enough you don't notice that the handling actually wasn't so great until new rubber goes on. If you change to a different tire, that new tire will be the best tire ever made. Mostly, it's cause the switch to new happens now and the change to worn happens so slow.

[she3pdog]

My forks will be getting torn down soon, so I'll be sure to ask about this.

[pattonme]

Excellent comparison re: tires, @rick. Most mortals won't notice the extra slop that is present in the forks today because of the wrong bushing (wear aside) and it would probably take 10K at least before you started to make a noticeable dent in the aluminum. I ride 20+K miles/yr so maybe I'm attuned to these sorts of issues.

[Beemer]

[video src=https://youtu.be/LeVk6L5Oibk]
 
Beware the internet black hole! Seriously, though, be careful. I hope you enjoyed the video!