Wrong fork bushings installed at factory - heavy wear ensues

[Cruizin]

But, going to the dealer to show them the wrong part starts the process of Yamaha Corporate getting the message from multiple dealers that something is wrong. An when the dealer tries to put the wrong part back on again, THEN call Yamaha Coporate.

[she3pdog]

Good thing I'm upgrading anyways. I'll make sure to look at these parts when mine gets replaced.

[pattonme]

> But, going to the dealer to show them the wrong part starts the process of Yamaha Corporate getting the message from multiple dealers that something is wrong
 
I wish that were true but I sincerely doubt the feedback loop will be exercised. You walk into the shop with your bike and ask for a tear-down. It'll be on your dime. Then when you point out how the bushings are already ruined, THEN the service manager might make the call and comp you back the labor he put on the invoice for taking the forks off and taking them apart. Hours pass as he tries to get Yamaha to make this a warranty claim. But you can imagine the reluctance on the Yamaha corporate side to authorize the replacement of the bushing with another part, especially if the only reference is a Suzuki or Kawasaki number. (we can probably dig up a Yam bike that use(d) the correct part)
 
I agree we need a critical mass (at least 6) low-mile FZ07 owners to submit their bikes to tear-down. But if I'm wrong about this ("inconceivable!"), people are going to be out the money and looking for restitution. I wouldn't object to setting up a $100 discount toward future services rendered or a set of free springs if it was a wild-goose chase. But I'd need good photographic proof and obviously a limit to the number of participants.
 
 

[fooschnickens]

Hmm, I had planned on doing the Traxxion emulator kit soonish, but I don't trust the dealer to be able to install them properly. They're right in my backyard and my local bike shop has a good reputation with them so I'd prefer either of them to do the install over the dealer. But if I had the work done at either place, would I be able to get reimbursed for the work? I don't mind paying extra for the peace of mind, but getting a chunk of change back while supporting local businesses would make me feel so much better.

[pattonme]

> But if I had the work done at either place, would I be able to get reimbursed for the work?
 
Should this become a major news item in the trade press, then sure Yamaha *might* be persuaded to issue a credit of some kind for the costs incurred to replace the bushings irrespective of what else you had done to the forks at the time they were in pieces. But pigs will probably fly first.
 

[rmdet]

If this went unattended, what would a potential failure look like? Meaning, what would happen if the bushing was wrong (or poorly designed) and it continued to wear? Just curious, since I will likely only address this if it becomes a recall issue or I see symptoms of a problem, so not sure what to watch for in the meantime.
 
Also, is this a concern that was seen on only 1 bike so far? Has there been a second bike looked at yet?

[pattonme]

> second bike
 
Not yet. But I've rebuilt 3 EX650s with the same problem. In fact the EX and FZ forks are VERY similar in outward appearances. My interest perked up when I started dealing with EX forks and was amazed how sloppy the tube fitment was. On the SV the upper fits very nicely into the lower. On the EX and FZ the silly thing rocks back and forth.
 
> potential failure look like
 
eventually it will start to erode the inner wall of the fork lower which will make the rocking that much worse. Could you go 30,000 miles? Sure. But for 27,000 of them you'll have hard steel (with a decently sharp, raised edge) rubbing directly against soft aluminum. On some forums you'll hear people asking why their front suspension "clunks" when they brake or accelerate. This is/can be a contributor.
 
If you look at forks from the 60's and 70's they didn't have Teflon nor did they have sacrificial bushings of any kind (eg. copper). Ask anyone with an old Ducati or other vintage bike. The forks get so bad that they are clapped out and there is no fixing them as the inner and outer legs wobble around. The bushing is a sliding surface and yes it is a wear item over a decently long amount of time.
 
If you don't want to fix the problem before it escalates that's your prerogative. $20-30 to fix it (modulo labor, tools, know-how) is a bargain IMO. Like I posted earlier today, any shop that works on suspension can handle the fix. You're due for new fork oil anyway more than likely.
 
For all I know the internal KYB part number difference between the current, wrong one and the right one is a single digit. Or the engineer who did the bill of materials hasn't actually built a fork in his life, and based on dimensions on a CAD program just picked what seemed suitable. Had he actually seen it in the flesh he might have realized his error. Or maybe when he looked at a 4mm gap he just shrugged his shoulders and thought that's how it's supposed to be. Or he calculated that the right part wouldn't fit the bore, while forgetting that the bushing is split and slightly sprung and once it's compressed it fits perfectly.
 
You do know that a distressingly large number of modern engineers have never built a damn thing. All they know are formulas, some reference books and how to use AutoCAD. They keep calling it progress. The machining industry is steadily getting that bad too. "But my CAM program said I could to this." "Not on your life, bub. Here, you just try making that on this here lathe/mill..."
 

[pattonme]

A little more background for those that wonder. A sliding bushing is a locator - it takes up manufacturing tolerances between 2 parts that slide and helps align them so the only allowable movement is linear. The wrong bushing allows the tubes to cant just slightly. which is why most of these cases of wrong bushing you'll find the Teflon worn at an angle.
 
The closest similarity would be to piston rings. Pistons can't be made a perfect fit or else they would seize or wear heavily. Rings support the "sloppy" piston, take up slack and seal against the wall. The wrong rings leads to abnormal fuel and oil consumption and low compression and damage to the cylinder walls.
 
This is not nearly as dramatic of course, but it's the same idea.

[rick]

Is there enough slop in the forks with these wrong sleeves that it can be felt (the std, tug/pull test) when new? In other words, is it bad enough to fail a safety inspection out of the box? Sounds like it might just be that loose judging by your description.
 
What's interesting and confusing at the same time is that this bike has been in Europe a year longer than it's been here. You'd think by now someone besides yourself has discovered this.
 
Sadly, the guys on the assembly line are probably in too big a hurry to even look at that big gap. And if they do see it, they're not getting paid to stop the assembly line.
 
I suspect Kayaba doesn't make the shims. There's likely a big box of wrong ones with the right part number due to some supplier's 1 digit mistake.
 
Guys like you take the time to do/make things right and would never let something out of your shop wrong no matter how many hours extra you have to spend. Pride in workmanship is still a darn good thing.
 
Can't tell you how many friends have brought bikes to me for help after a professional shop lost parts, used 500 ft-lb air wrenches where 25 would have been right and still didn't get the bike fixed. I broke a 40 year old socket once trying to remove a stupid tight brake caliper bolt from a 250 Ninja . There were opposed thumbs at work, not much else.
 
Looks like I'll be making plans for a new winter project
 
 
 

[pattonme]

> can be felt (the std, tug/pull test) when new?
 
No. It is only evident when there isn't 250lbs resting on the forks and the springs are out. We're not talking millimeters here but fractions thereof. But if you measure the displacement at the fork cap end of the tube it might register 1mm or so. It doesn't need to be off by much to have significant consequences. It's very clearly loose though and ditto EX650 and in direct contrast to SV, Bandit, ZX6, GSXR, YZF, CB and the like which are all built in the same manner, just different dimensions. I've seen worn bushings in everything if it has enough miles on it, but the wear pattern is uniform, as it should be.
 
Yeah I don't know what goes on over there in EURO-land. Aside from SVRider which seems to have a decent UK and Euro contingent I'm not aware of many bike-specific motorcycle forms frequented by Continentals that isn't in their native tongue. I don't read Spanish, German, or French (I know, ignorant American, but I read/write Japanese! not that it matters) so it may well be a known issue but because of the language barrier it isn't widely known.
 
Is there a Continental forum for MT07 owners? If so, can somebody with the language skills go look around?
 
http://mt07.motorcycle-talk.net/ redirects to http://www.dn-01.net/forum/cmps_index.php which makes no sense.
and https://www.facebook.com/pages/Yamaha-MT-07-Forum/648802765140774
I'll have to check out from home to see if there's actually something there and recent.

[rick]

I was afraid it would be too little to feel.
 
The lower bushings would normally wear to the back side? Is that correct?
 
Fortunately for us'ns, the rest of the world speaks English too. Have a buddy in Belgium who's written English is so good, i forget sometimes he speaks it with a Flemish accent, lol.
 
Price is listed in Brit pounds so UK http://yamahamt07forums.com/
 
This one is a mix of MT/FZ. I've seen one of this forum's members (Ralph) contribute http://www.motorcycle-talk.net/
 
You might very well be breaking ground on this one.
 
If it's really every one of these fork tubes, Yamaha really owes it to us customers to make it right. Hopefully, they'll run with the evidence you guys have presented. Not sure i trust my dealer to do it properly regardless.
 

[maalna2]

I wonder if reporting it to the nhtsa would do anything. Granted for now it is just 1 but it could very well be many more and every report could help with a recall.
 
 
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml

[rick]

can't hurt

[pattonme]

Guess who just called me an hour ago. That's right, a service engineer from Yam USA. All hail the power of RoadRacingWorld editor Mr. Ulrich (or his staff) - talk about next business day response time.
 
'unknown' and myself will be working with him, shipping him the bad parts to inspect and so forth and the factory is going to try to reproduce and propose a fix. Yamaha agreed (and the guy has an FZ07 himself) that the bushings should wear and be replaced every ~20,000 miles.
 
But they need more datapoints. If any of you have 5K+ miles on your bikes and can do the inspection yourself or are going to install springs etc. anyway and want to volunteer, PM me to discuss incentives.
 
 
Lets keep the USGOV out of this one. It's not like we're talking about oil or fuel lines popping off or brake pads falling out of calipers.
 

[pattonme]

> The lower bushings would normally wear to the back side? Is that correct?
 
it's not that simple. When braking the tube tilts forward and would rub the back. When accelerating it would rub the front. When cornering the opposite side. But it also depends on rotational position of the bushing's gap as that will heavily influence which of the sides experiences the worst of it.

[pattonme]

I updated the 1st post to include a Yamaha bike that uses the correct bushing pair. I'm sure there are others but I have other things to do.

[Cruizin]

Wow! Great job Pattonme! I look forward to you looking at my FZ-09 Forks even more now, interested in what you find.
 
So, now that you are talking to Yamaha directly, feel free to share this thread and forum because dialog is already taking place and you an Unknown are doing a great service for Yamaha.
 
Please let me know whatever I can do to help. Lets hope that this is limited to just a small batch of bikes. Either way, I'm sure that Yamaha will be all over this.

[FZRDR]

Very Happy I have my AK-20s installed.......
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag422/pics4me2/Bike/8A34DC95-90CA-499E-B482-E0091BD9333A_zpsmx8ag153.jpg
Traxxion even sent me the stock internals sealed in plastic, oh look carefully there's the bushing on top left
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag422/pics4me2/Bike/AB88B24C-3F1D-4AC0-B388-05900E450FEA_zpsmlnjzsg1.jpg
 

[p0k3yiii]

im still waiting on my hyperpro front springs to come in but when they do ill let you guys know.

[rick]

Just got a look at the picts in your 1st post. Dang. Toasted
 
Great news/job getting Yamaha's ear on this.

[FZRDR]

These images are from my bike with only 200 miles before I upgraded my suspension
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag422/pics4me2/Bike/ECF77FF5-166A-41E9-8692-476759D6B816_zpsa6nffan2.jpg
Another image  of both bushings showing unreasonable wear for 200 miles, look closely you can see cooper (Teflon wearing)
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag422/pics4me2/Bike/49EB9468-CF4F-4D28-99FB-43444425AA73_zpsslu7yw5y.jpg
 
 

[catfish]

THANKS Pattonme for sharing your information! :-)
 
I have my traxxion fork kit, but not installed yet. I just ordered the All Balls bushing (38-6096) & seal (56-129) kits to have on hand when I take the forks apart next week. ~1600 miles on mine so far.
 
Catfish ...
 

[Guest unknown]

Update:
 
I just spoke with a Yamaha Tech Specialist. We will be sending the worn bushings to them for review. He had some good news too. He tore down the suspension of another FZ and everything measured out correctly. That means this may be limited to a certain number of bikes / production dates! He also instructed me to tell anyone else worried about their forks to go their Yamaha dealer to have the bushing inspected/replaced with the correct diameter bushing for free under warranty. He was super helpful and really nice to chat with. He ended up telling me a little bit about a R6 front end swap and is going to be sending me some info regarding how much fabrication would be involved.

[squintyeyes]

I have almost 1000 miles on my bike and i purchased November of 2014. What do i tell the dealer when i go in? And at this moment is it definitely covered under Yamaha warranty? I just want to make sure in case they try to bill me or anything. Thanks for any info, i want to get my bike in as quick as possible if theirs a problem since im a bit larger at 250lbs and probably add more wear than noraml.

[pattonme]

> this may be limited to a certain number of bikes / production dates
whew, that would be excellent.
 
> telling me a little bit about a R6 front end swap
 
very cool. The galling aspect of this is like I mention in the 'pogo' thread, all Yamaha had to do was put in the 41mm cartridge system they used in the YZF6R (aka Thundercat) from the mid-late 90's (which was decent, not great) or even the system from a R6 from again, 10 years ago. Impact to MSRP? Probably $2-300 and the customer wouldn't have to spend $3-500 trying to fix Yamaha's decision to put suspension appropriate for a $4000 bike on a $7000 bike and trying to keep a straight face about it.
 
RRW is going to mention the bushing issue in an upcoming edition where they do an article on suspension upgrade options for the FZ07. I asked Ulrich why his mag and others didn't call out the problems with the forks like they did on the FZ09 and he said basically "we didn't expect good behavior from a $7000 bike being ridden at a race track." I guess I have higher standards for a product that costs this much.