Wrong fork bushings installed at factory - heavy wear ensues

[versysrider]

Just found this thread today after looking around this forum some more. Unfortunately I found it about 2 months late. I bought a 2016 used that had been put down, and both fork stanchions/chrome sliders were bent. Fortunately they are cheap online. I replaced both stanchions and re-used all oem parts (bushings & seals) as no wear was present. My oem bushing had the same "wide" gap as shown by "pattonme" in his post on pg.6. I thought it seemed like a sizeable gap, although having only pulled a few sets of forks apart before, thought it must be fine, as there seemed to be virtually no wear. This was at around 2,000 miles.
 
I replaced the stanchions as soon as I could as I wanted to evaluate what suspension mods I wanted to make over winter (still not decided). I can tell you switching to 15w fork oil made a huge difference in damping over stock, at least at my weight 170lbs in gear, with the oem springs. And as has been mentioned here I had major issues getting the damper rod bolts out, my 1/2 inch drive impact gun with a homemade damper rod holding tool finally did the job after 2 hours of trying different methods. The stock torque of the bolt is I believe 12 ft. lbs. The factory seemed to torque it to 70 ft. lbs., and there was a lot of thread lock on the bolt.
At least I know I'll be able to get the damper rod bolts out easily now that they have been apart once. And after pulling the forks apart once, I should be able to do the whole procedure in about the same time as it took just to get the first damper rod bolt out.

[markstertt]

I'll just say here that I will NOT press fit a ring and then re-bore for tighter tolerances... The SV Gen2 upper bushing is 3mm taller. I could see getting away with maybe 2mm. The pinched ID of the bushings seems to be the same for both so perhaps the FZ just needs a shim.

I pulled my forks to change fluid and also to check on this looseness or excessive clearance between the fork upper bushing and stanchion that twf had mentioned and sure enough at full extension it is very noticeable and still detectable when compressed, this is with 8500 miles on the bike but only 1000+ miles on new AllBalls bushing and seal kit (small gap) as recommended in this post to replace the oem with the large gap. Before I take the forks apart any further, I wanted to check with you guys and see if it's considered acceptable to use shim stock between the upper bushing O.D. and aluminum fork leg?  Any idea about how much clearance to shoot for between bushing I.D. and chrome stanchion? Once apart I'll measure what I have now and shim for less but wasn't sure how little clearance to try for. I have a little roller I can form a strip of shim material with, my local hobby shop has various thicknesses of alum., brass, copper and stainless steel shim stock...any thoughts would be appreciated as I don't want to put it back together this loose...Mark 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[pattonme]

what's the current end gap in the ring with it installed in the bore? Let's say the needed shim stock is 0.05mm thick, the trick is how do you get the bushing in and not mash the shim or completely displace it in the process. Say you glue it to the OD of the bushing, I think you'd still have to compress it with like a piston ring compressor.
 
For a close sliding fit you want 0.5-1 thousandth's of an inch or up to 0.0254mm. For a 'loose' sliding fit 0.04mm or less.
A 0.05mm shim would close the gap about 0.31mm.
 
There might be more merit (and definitely a hell of lot easier to do) to shim under the lower bushing instead.

[markstertt]

Thanks Matt, it would appear there is no gap with top bushing installed, hence an interference fit to gear leg once driven in. You can take the top bushing and squeeze it closed around the fork stanchion and see how loose the fit is, no way to do this with the bushing installed with stanchion and seal in the way. If you install the bushing by itself, it would be tough to get it back out with out the tube/lower bushing installed to bang it out. I was thinking of gluing shim to O.D. of bushing with the glue up squeezed in a split tube with a hose clamp squeezing it tight, thought was to leave the shim slightly long (tall) on one end to be able to form that end over the chamfer on the bushing so as to have a leading edge that would guide the bushing into the leg bore without displacing the shim. Since the split in the bushing is closed once installed (so it appears) then to make this work, that gap will need to be opened up a little wider to allow the bushing I.D. to collapse to a smaller I.D. once installed, also without opening up the end gap it would be even more difficult to install the bushing in the fork leg bore. I need to investigate a little further on the end gap being an issue. It's possible that just opening up the end gap a bit would allow the I.D. to collapse enough (once installed) to take up some of the slop without losing to much O.D. interference fit. I'll experiment with the OE bushing.
 
Yes it would be easy to shim under the lower bushing, between the bush and chrome stanchion, but I haven't yet determined if it needs it, that top bushing definitely could use some help however, to bad it isn't about twice as wide also.
 
At only about 1200 miles, there are no signs of any wear on the new small gap Allballs bushings.
 
 

[markstertt]

I'll just say here that I will NOT press fit a ring and then re-bore for tighter tolerances... The SV Gen2 upper bushing is 3mm taller. I could see getting away with maybe 2mm. The pinched ID of the bushings seems to be the same for both so perhaps the FZ just needs a shim.

Matt, I noticed that the bearing material on the ID of the -07's upper bushing stops short of the edge by a mm or more, if I thought it would make a difference, I'd shorten a couple of the SV Gen2 bushings to get the 2+mm increase in ID bearing material with the -07's length...question is...do you know if the SV bushing has the same OD/ID of our -07's, do you have one you could measure? Thanks 
oh, what years are the SV Gen2 bikes, in case I want to order a couple of bushings?
 

[pattonme]

I got a fistful of Gen1 (99-02) and Gen2 (03-08) and AFAIK the Gladius ('10?-15) is the exact same part.

[markstertt]

Thanks Matt.

[markstertt]

Just a quick follow up, as suspected the top fork leg bushing clearance to stanchion can be reduced by opening up the bushings end gap with a needle file allowing the bushing ID & OD to shrink when the bushing ends butt together on installation in the fork leg, however this also reduces the OD interference fit to the fork leg bore to where it's almost an easy push fit. I didn't like this so I wrapped the OD of the bushing with .001" brass shim stock and this resulted in a nice tight fit when driven home. I can't say how much I reduced the bushing to stanchion clearance as it was done by feel, file/fit, file/fit but once installed there is now almost an imperceptible wiggle with fork fully extended and almost undetectable when compressed, a huge improvement over unmodified. This was also helped by following a suggestion from pattonme in regards to the bottom bushing, I removed the bottom bushing and wrapped it's stanchion groove with a strip of 3/4" wide .001" shim stock and then reinstalled the bushing over the top of this. I tried a .002" shim but the resulting fit was a bit to snug. If I were to do just one, I think the bottom bushing would be it, very easy to do with good results and hard to screw up.
 
A couple things of note, one good and one not so, the Allballs top bushing has about 1mm less Teflon(?) material (in width) applied to it's I.D., 10mm vz. 11mm for the OEM even though the shell is the same width. As a plus, it has a large chamfer around it's edge that allows for forming the brass shim stock around which creates a nice leading edge so as to not displace the shim when installing, I did super glue the very ends of the shim strips (last 1/4") to the bushing to keep them in place on install, worked great. I did try to bond the entire strip first but it resulted in an increase in OD and to tight a fit on install so removed the now wrinkled up shim and did as above.
 
Be advised that this mod is all by trial and fit, depending on factory tolerances., mileage on forks etc. one size may not fit all and if you go to far on opening up the bushing end gap then you may eliminate all clearance and actually grip the stanchion once the bushing is reinstalled. I played with my old OEM bushings to get an idea of how much was to much to file and then just crept up on the final fitment. I feel that this is a worthwhile endeavor if you have your forks apart for any reason, at least the bottom bushing anyway.
 

[markstertt]

One more (honest) benefit of eliminating the fork bushings excess clearance, prior to shimming the bushings, when I would lock the front brake and rock the bike fore and aft I could hear a light clicking that I couldn't find the cause of, not steering head bearings, caliper/brake components, couldn't find it but now it's gone. I'm not totally convinced it was the bushing clearance issue but for now it's gone so just something to think about if you have a similar scenario.

[rick]

Think every motorcycle (w/o any play in the front legs) I've owned has done this - always just assumed it was brake pads moving in the calipers from one bias to the other.
 
Take the bike for a ride. Get off, walk it backwards a bit and slam the front brake on while it's still rolling back. If it then stays click-less, you might be on to something.

[markstertt]

Yeah possible Rick, in hindsight, I'm not sure if it was actually an audible clack or more sensory, regardless, it wasn't the purpose of the exercise just a possible side benefit.
 
What I will conclude is that if you are installing new fork bushings, it's worth the small effort to adjust the clearances by shimming. Only shim the bottom bushing if you are replacing the OE (factory large gap) with an AllBalls small gap bushing. The factory bushing (bottom) was a snug fit in it's groove around the stanchion (if I remember correctly) and I don't think I would want to shim it, however, the AllBalls was more free to rotate and was still so with my .001" shim behind it. I think you may want that bottom bushing to rotate and distribute the wear a little more evenly and I would assume that closer tolerances will hold the stanchion truer in it's bore which should make for less or at least even the wear out. I used brass shim stock from the hobby store, $3.99 for a pack with a small sheet of 1,2,3 & .005" which can be easily cut with scissors, brass to wrap around the OD of the top bushing worked great but I think I would have preferred a stainless shim for behind the bottom, however, I doubt it will matter.
 
It sounds like I'm trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear but in this case shimming for proper clearance when replacing the bushings is not a big deal and did dramatically reduce the slop in the stock assembly, can't hurt and after a short 35 mile ride yesterday all seems well. I do have a pair of 43mm early right side up R6 forks that I think might be a good candidate for this bike, it will take a new fork crown and more probably but would maintain the looks and stock front wheel I would hope, may look into that but am also thinking another bike for 2 up riding might be nice.

[shinyribs]

Just found this thread and read the whole thing. Not gonna touch on the gap size issue, but I can understand the concept of a too-small diameter bushing creating a wide gap ( really not good). Anyway, my question is about the AllBall's bushing. I hate AllBall's bushings (and fork seals). I've used them on two different bikes and both times had bad results. The coating they use is sticky and not free-moving at all and, in both occasions, the coating peeled off quickly ( coating peeled off on my XR4 in under 2hrs riding time). So, this replacement bushing that's being sourced from AllBalls, what would be the OEM equivalent? 

Quote

 

 

[r1limited]

All I know is it takes a lot of balls to say AllBalls are sticky

[pattonme]

3 hours ago, shinyribs said:

what would be the OEM equivalent? 

Teflon is sticky? You want '95-97 ZX6F bushings. There's a few more on the compat list but I don't have that handy ATM.

AB 38-1017 has 39.7 X 41.6 X 19.8

Looks like Yamaha BOLT 14-17 and FZ6R 09-15 uses the same (AB38-6096) kit. So it should be 4FM-23171-40-00 or

3VD-23135-10-00. I don't know why 2 different part numbers for what should be same item.

 

If you want K-Tech oil seals (FSS -005) no idea on price.

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by pattonme

[shinyribs]

30 minutes ago, pattonme said:

Teflon is sticky? You want '95-97 ZX6F bushings. There's a few more on the compat list but I don't have that handy ATM.

AB 38-1017 has 39.7 X 41.6 X 19.8

Looks like Yamaha BOLT 14-17 and FZ6R 09-15 uses the same (AB38-6096) kit. So it should be 4FM-23171-40-00 or

3VD-23135-10-00. I don't know why 2 different part numbers for what should be same item.

 

If you want K-Tech oil seals (FSS -005) no idea on price.

 

Thank you for that info. 

 

I don't know what to say about the coating. Maybe their Teflon on street bushings is different than the coating they use on dirt bikes? I've just had bad experiences with them. I can go to Partzilla and nab OEM replacements for a couple dollars more, typically, so I just go that route now. 

 

Really glad you found this issue and went to the trouble to sort out and post everything. Very much appreciated. 

 

BTW, do you sell Cogent valves, or do they only sell directly? 

[pattonme]

No relationship with Cogent, sorry. 

[shinyribs]

1 hour ago, pattonme said:

No relationship with Cogent, sorry. 

No problem. Just figured I'd buy through you if possible. 

[noodles]

This is one helluva thread, and yes I did read the whole thing... So the answers I gleaned from 18 pages are conflicting:

• Order the 38-6096 kit and use those fork bushings - but do any of the other kit's contents apply to the FZ07's forks? Or do I have to order 2 kits (one 38-6096 and one 38-6095 for the snap rings etc)
• Or order the OEM 'equivalents' of 4FM-23171-40-00 or 3VD-23135-10-00 ?
• And then there are dissenting opinions that the OE bushing is fine but the legs are manufactured incorrectly or the OE bushings are made of inferior material, either of which leads to the excessive wear. So then should I just order the Allballs FZ07 bushing kit because their bushings are "better quality"? Or is the size still the real issue here.

My bike has 22,000 miles on it and I want to put in the Bitubo JBH this winter while it's laid up anyway. What do I make of this thread?? Order one 38-6096 and one 56-129 to replace the seals??

 

And assuming I want to DIY this, I need a seal driver (43mm I think?), a bunch of socket extensions, that square damper rod holder thing, and an impact gun to remove the gorilla-tight bolt?

Edited July 12, 2018 by noodles

[DewMan]

1 hour ago, noodles said:



 

And assuming I want to DIY this, I need a seal driver (43mm I think?), a bunch of socket extensions, that square damper rod holder thing, and an impact gun to remove the gorilla-tight bolt?

I used this MotionPro 41mm seal driver successfully when installing my JBH. You'll need, if memory servers correctly, an 8mm Allen key I cut down to about 4-5 inches long to use with a socket to get the bolt out of the bottom. I used air impact and it zipped right out. No damper rod holder needed for me anyway. I ordered the bushings from @pattonme

Edited July 12, 2018 by DewMan

[pattonme]

ahh Maruchan - you need to lay off the MSG.

Snap rings last forever as do the upper bushings though if you want to swap those because 22k, no worries. I've got several combinations of bushing and seal kits so just tell me what you want and I can mix/match to suit.

[Beemer]

This thread is proof that you can't always trust what companies say about their products. I'm talking about the All Balls 38-6095 Fork Bushing Kit.

I'm a little ticked that after four years of this thread being started All Balls still hasn't made a correction to the lower bushing in their kit. You would think that after just one major complaint they would investigate, see that it's the wrong size (lower bushing) and correct it asap. That is if they gave a sh*t.

It was a major pain to put it in and worse to have to take out. I wasted time and money on their kit and I'm lucky I didn't ruin my forks taking them out. In hindsight, I could kick myself for not doing a search about their bushing kit before I bought it but on the other hand, why should anyone doubt them when they say it fits? They made it and stood by it so they're ultimately responsible for the mistake, not me.

In the end I had to use the old bushings that still had a good amount of Teflon on them. Time will tell just how much Teflon had been worn off. Right now everything is working good. Thank you DewMan for all your help, I owe you!

[DewMan]

1 minute ago, Beemer said:

This thread is proof that you can't always trust what companies say about their products. I'm a little ticked that after four years of this thread being started All Balls still hasn't made a correction to the lower bushing in their kit. You would think that after just one major complaint they would investigate, see that it's the wrong size and correct it immediately. That is if they gave a sh*t.

It was a major pain to put it in and worse to have to take out. I wasted time and money on their kit and I'm lucky I didn't ruin my forks taking them out. In hindsight, I could kick myself for not doing a search about their bushing kit before I bought it but on the other hand, why should anyone doubt them when they say it fits? They made it and stood by it so they're ultimately responsible for the mistake, not me. 

In the end I had to use the old bushings that still had a good amount of Teflon on them. Time will tell just how much Teflon had been worn off. Right now everything is working good. Thank you DewMan for all your help, I owe you! 

NP Beemer

But for clarification the issue was with the upper bushing that's pressed into the top of the fork lower just before you press in the seals.

[fzar]

A little bit of a thread revival here. I need some clarification if someone can help me out. If I was to go the way of All Balls it would be the  #38-6096 bushing kit from A-Balls, and just in case their needed or not I should do the oil seals and dust seals while I'm at it!

The front end hasn't been worked on since it came out of the crate in 2015, 23,000 miles later I think it needs to be done, along with fork oil change. So my question is should I get the oil/dust seals from A-Balls $35.68 shipped, or Partzilla $61.00 shipped. Is there any reason why I shouldn't go the way of the cheaper A-Balls set? Anyone with experience using either or both if you could chime in.n @DewMan and @Beemer and @pattonme or any one who can help. I know first world problem, but its my problem.!!!!!

 

[DewMan]

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 6:04 PM, fzar said:

A little bit of a thread revival here. I need some clarification if someone can help me out. If I was to go the way of All Balls it would be the  #38-6096 bushing kit from A-Balls, and just in case their needed or not I should do the oil seals and dust seals while I'm at it! 

The front end hasn't been worked on since it came out of the crate in 2015, 23,000 miles later I think it needs to be done, along with fork oil change. So my question is should I get the oil/dust seals from A-Balls $35.68 shipped, or Partzilla $61.00 shipped. Is there any reason why I shouldn't go the way of the cheaper A-Balls set? Anyone with experience using either or both if you could chime in.n @DewMan and @Beemer and @pattonme or any one who can help. I know first world problem, but its my problem.!!!!!

 

From what I've read here and experienced first hand the only OEM part that I would NOT use is the lower Teflon bushings. IMO all of the OEM seals and upper Teflon bushings are better than the All-Balls kit from my 1st hand experience. The OEM lower bushings have a history of losing their Teflon coating very quickly. I've not heard any complaints regarding the the AllBalls lower bushings. 
The All-Balls  upper bushings were too tight, the seals a bit too tall making installing the snap ring almost impossible even after confirming that the seals were fully seated in the recess.

When my bike next needs a fork rebuild I'll be going with all OEM parts except the lower Teflon coated bushings. 

Edit: don't forget the copper crush washers for the lower fork bolts when you order parts. 

[noodles]

On 8/17/2019 at 8:28 PM, DewMan said:

When my bike next needs a fork rebuild I'll be going with all OEM parts except the lower Teflon coated bushings. 

Edit: don't forget the copper crush washers for the lower fork bolts when you order parts. 

I asked this question a long time ago and didn't get an answer; what exactly do I need to do to replace the bushings and also the oil/dust seals?

Looks like I need:

• 4EB-W003B-00-000 - OEM fork dust/oil seals kit
• AllBalls 38-6096 - "wrong" kit with the "right" sized lower bushings - but do the upper bushings fit? Or the snap rings/O rings etc?
• Seal driver kit
• Damper tube holder tool and/or broom handle

I wanted to replace those bushings and while I'm at it, put in better springs and/or GVE