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youngmaavin

R7 CP2 engine blown help

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youngmaavin
2 hours ago, Pursuvant said:I mean is "private tuner" a full blown "Woolich dealer" with the hardware/software/licensing to access all Woolich resources and can flash unlimited bikes.

Where the map set came from is my question, was it a complete "set" of maps for R7, and what got altered.

Yes, I’m pretty sure he’s a dealer of woolich and has access to all their software/maps.

He insists that it can’t be the tune, since he’s done over 200 mt07s a and R7s and I’m the first one with this problem.

But I don’t know, I’ve looked at some videos I’ve found on the internet showing detonation/spark knock and it is almost exactly what I heard at the track.

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youngmaavin
Posted (edited)

So I want to provide an update for this.

Went to the garage where they confirmed cylinder number 1 is dead.

Read the ECU with OBD and the errors are quite confusing to me, maybe someone can shed light on this?

Before opening an engine further, they suggested to try and go through warranty.

So I went to my tuner and he put back the stock map, that was on the bike and then I cleared the ECU codes as well.

Tuner insists it couldn't be advanced ignition, since he used "stock unrestricted map" and only tuned the fuel, didn't touch the ignition.

Can anyone speculate if it's possible with the stock map back on and ECU codes cleared to see that the bike was tuned and deny warranty?

image.thumb.png.35475b5342fb1e5a69cb7d17f6313b34.png

Edited by youngmaavin

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00RAH
Posted (edited)

im speculating, yes they can tell it was tuned.

ancient proverb: be honest and dont tell lies.

ps. i was tuning my guitar and snapped a string, can they tell i tuned it? 

Edited by 00RAH

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M. Hausknecht

One of the guys at https://2wheeldynoworks.com/collections/ecu-flashing-service , Nate Phipps, stated recently on FB that once the ecu is reflashed with the stock maps, there is no way to tell the ecu was flashed. The stock ecu isn't like the ecus in many contemporary 4-wheeled vehicles which are either locked or retain a code indicating changes were made. I have no personal knowledge either way but 2WDW likely has more experience flashing  CP2 ecu's than anyone else so they ought to know. 

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youngmaavin

Some more updates, changed the velocity stacks back to the ones that were there in the beginning.

Saw this in the throttle body of #1 cylinder, metal flakes.

 

image.thumb.png.019b83ecd8fce37ad34b99facf3beae7.png

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youngmaavin

Also took a video of the intake:

 

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M. Hausknecht

Oh look, its aluminum in that intake port. I bet there is aluminum all over the end of the #1 spark plug too.

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Lone Wolf
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, youngmaavin said:

Tuner insists it couldn't be advanced ignition, since he used "stock unrestricted map" and only tuned the fuel, didn't touch the ignition.

... So I went to my tuner and he put back the stock map

Now that it is reverted to stock map there is no way to verify if the ignition was advanced.

Prior post mentions the failure did not occur on the track, but days after the track. 

Was it running on low octane pump-gas when the failure occurred?

What gas was it running on when you heard the (possible ping - pre detonation) sounds on the track?

Your video has audio, yet no curse words, and that bothers me. Mine would have "Oh ****"

Edited by Lone Wolf
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youngmaavin
1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said:

Prior post mentions the failure did not occur on the track, but days after the track. 

Was it running on low octane pump-gas when the failure occurred?

What gas was it running on when you heard the (possible ping - pre detonation) sounds on the track?

Your video has audio, yet no curse words, and that bothers me. Mine would have "Oh ****"

I'm past all the curse words, I knew the engine was toast at this point.

Just pure sadness and depression now.

The pinging I thought I heard actually started before the track even, just with street riding at WOT.

I thought maybe it's the sound of the chain or lifters or something else.

Because when I first heard it, I immediately called the tuner and he assured me everything was fine.

Was running regular 95 octane gas, which everyone runs here on their sport bikes, no issue.

Filled up a few times at different gas stations.

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Lone Wolf
9 minutes ago, youngmaavin said:

The pinging I thought I heard actually started before the track even, just with street riding at WOT.

... when I first heard it, I immediately called the tuner and he assured me everything was fine.

Did you ever hear that same sound BEFORE the ECU was tuned?

I am not jumping to conclusions, or blame, just curious about when this first manifested.

I realize the bike is fairly new - how much riding before the ECU tune and how much after the tune?

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youngmaavin
32 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Did you ever hear that same sound BEFORE the ECU was tuned?

I am not jumping to conclusions, or blame, just curious about when this first manifested.

I realize the bike is fairly new - how much riding before the ECU tune and how much after the tune?

Absolutely no pinging/weird noises before the tune.

But tuning was also involving unrestricting from A1 47 hp EU model.

So I didn't flash stock North American full power R7.

 Eu limited model includes different air filter and very restrictive small diameter velocity stacks.

And different restricted maps.

So full unrestriction involves mechanical work of changing above components and flashing the ECU with high output maps.

I wasn't chasing big numbers, just wanted to ride the bike at full factory power.

Bike sits at around 3000 km, most of that before flashing, with normal break in period and first service at 1000 km.

After flashing the ecu and changing stacks/filter i got around 300-400 km maybe?

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youngmaavin

Also, would really appreciate your inputs on this:

Let's assume everything is perfectly fine with the map, what mechanical issues  around airbox/throttle bodies could lead to such catastrophic damage?

Things I touched (and 100% sure I plugged back in, but nonetheless):

Airbox

Throttle bodies

Injectors

Tps

Vacuum hoses assembly around throttle bodies, gas tank, airbox

Stepper motor plug

Fuel line from gas tank to injectors

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Lone Wolf
Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, youngmaavin said:

Let's assume everything is perfectly fine with the map, what mechanical issues  around airbox/throttle bodies could lead to such catastrophic damage?

I will defer to others, as this motor has a great reputation for being bombproof.

This was mentioned previously, and may become evident upon teardown:

22 hours ago, M. Hausknecht said:

The symptoms are consistent with: too much advance for fuel's octane, leading to a damaged piston and ring... But it could be a dropped valve due to a valve collet falling out (I've read of a few newish CP2 motors with this problem). 

Looking at your video, both valves are open. I am not that familiar with how much overlap there may be, or if that is normal. Others will know.

I am still curious what you see when spark plug pulled (if the plug was hit with debris) and borescope - endoscope view of cylinder and piston.

Edited by Lone Wolf

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youngmaavin

You know of any possible cross compatibility issues with CP2 engines?

Talking just about the engines, Throttle bodies, electronics etc. I can pull off my current engine.

I see in certain listings abs/non abs engines, what's that mean, there are brackets somewhere on the engine for abs module?

Do internals differ over the years?

Since R7 is so new, I can't find any used engines from it on the market, MT07s though are more common.

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M. Hausknecht
1 hour ago, youngmaavin said:

Also, would really appreciate your inputs on this:

Let's assume everything is perfectly fine with the map, what mechanical issues  around airbox/throttle bodies could lead to such catastrophic damage?

Things I touched (and 100% sure I plugged back in, but nonetheless):

Airbox

Throttle bodies

Injectors

Tps

Vacuum hoses assembly around throttle bodies, gas tank, airbox

Stepper motor plug

Fuel line from gas tank to injectors

An air leak between the #1 throttle body and the cylinder would cause a severe lean condition in that cylinder, generating gobs of heat and stressing the piston crown. Perhaps that would have been evident on the wideband O2 sensor your tuner used to guide his fuel map adjustments but if it wasn't spotted, the average AFR for the two cylinders would be ok while the #1 cylinder would be very lean and the #2 cylinder very rich. The spark plugs should reveal if this occurred. A faulty injector would do the same thing but yours are fresh so I don't imagine an injector is to blame.

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youngmaavin
Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, M. Hausknecht said:

An air leak between the #1 throttle body and the cylinder would cause a severe lean condition in that cylinder, generating gobs of heat and stressing the piston crown. Perhaps that would have been evident on the wideband O2 sensor your tuner used to guide his fuel map adjustments but if it wasn't spotted, the average AFR for the two cylinders would be ok while the #1 cylinder would be very lean and the #2 cylinder very rich. The spark plugs should reveal if this occurred. A faulty injector would do the same thing but yours are fresh so I don't imagine an injector is to blame.

This is interesting.

As far as I can see, the seals between velocity stacks - throttle bodies -cylinders are pretty straight forward and slide in place with no possible deviation from one right configuration.

Wouldn't an air leak there affect MAP sensor readings?

Edited by youngmaavin

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mjh937

Regarding ABS and non-ABS engines the only difference I can think of would be the speed sensor.  ABS bikes get the speed from the wheel sensor while the non-ABS models use engine RPM and calculate the speed.  I would assume the ABS engine just has a cover over the sensor port but I do not know this for sure. 

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M. Hausknecht
1 hour ago, youngmaavin said:

This is interesting.

As far as I can see, the seals between velocity stacks - throttle bodies -cylinders are pretty straight forward and slide in place with no possible deviation from one right configuration.

Wouldn't an air leak there affect MAP sensor readings?

A leak after (closer to the combustion chamber) the IAP wouldn't effect the reading, but before, yes; assuming your IAP hose comes off the #1 TB. For example, an air leak around the injector wouldn't effect the IAP sensor reading. 

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youngmaavin
10 hours ago, M. Hausknecht said:

A leak after (closer to the combustion chamber) the IAP wouldn't effect the reading, but before, yes; assuming your IAP hose comes off the #1 TB. For example, an air leak around the injector wouldn't effect the IAP sensor reading. 

On the R7 (latest gen mt07 as well possibly) vacuum hose from MAP sensor comes to TB #2 (right side)

image.png.2330f5063d109d1648064a79a34ad2bc.png

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M. Hausknecht
3 hours ago, youngmaavin said:

On the R7 (latest gen mt07 as well possibly) vacuum hose from MAP sensor comes to TB #2 (right side)

image.png.2330f5063d109d1648064a79a34ad2bc.png

Well then, to answer your question,  the IAP wouldn't know about a leak on the #1 side of things.

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youngmaavin
6 minutes ago, M. Hausknecht said:

Well then, to answer your question,  the IAP wouldn't know about a leak on the #1 side of things.

Interesting stuff.

Wouldn't such a severe leak affect power levels?

The bike never felt down on power right up until the point of failure.

I'm afraid now, that after possibly replacing an engine, the problem will remain and I'll blow another one

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M. Hausknecht
24 minutes ago, youngmaavin said:

Interesting stuff.

Wouldn't such a severe leak affect power levels?

The bike never felt down on power right up until the point of failure.

I'm afraid now, that after possibly replacing an engine, the problem will remain and I'll blow another one

Yeah, it would. I'd be surprised if the problem was an air leak.

I'd be interested in seeing your primary spark advance table. My suspicion is that it has more advance than the stock Yamaha spark map. I'm aware that the FTECU and the aRacer ecu base spark maps have, or at least have had, added spark advance. It is the only way they can claim truthfully that their systems add peak horsepower. Because of how the emissions are measured, the WOT operation of these motors isn't compromised from the factory like it is at low throttle openings and lower rpms, so adding/subtracting fuel to the stock map doesn't generate more power (assuming stock motor and pipe). The FTECU problem showed up for several MA Twins Cup competitors who used the base map ignition settings, assuming they were safe, and then destroyed their #1 pistons. I  discovered the aRacer problem  myself; just a couple extra degrees of advance at WOT did my #1 piston in.

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youngmaavin
3 hours ago, M. Hausknecht said:

I'd be interested in seeing your primary spark advance table. My suspicion is that it has more advance than the stock Yamaha spark map.

If I get spark maps from my tuner, can you read them for me?
I personally wouldn't have anything to compare them against to understand if they're advanced or not.

Bike was stock engine/exhaust, aside from DNA filter and High-flow filter cover

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M. Hausknecht

Yeah, I can give you feedback on the ignition advance if you can get the ignition map.

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youngmaavin
5 minutes ago, M. Hausknecht said:

Yeah, I can give you feedback on the ignition advance if you can get the ignition map.

Sent you a PM

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