Robem Tripple Clamps

[Evill_Ed]

6 minutes ago, jb.junior said:

Yoshimura came out with an adjustable swing arm pivot, FYI: https://www.yoshimura-rd.com/products/yamaha-yzf-r7-swingarm-pivot-kit-450bg137200

And a bunch of other really good looking stuff, like a full titanium exhaust and engine parts. 

Yeah, I saw that stuff too. Hmmmmmm..........

[jb.junior]

1 minute ago, Evill_Ed said:

Yeah, I saw that stuff too. Hmmmmmm..........

I email them every other week about the TI full exhaust.  They say end of the month.  Finally, a full TI for the FZ/R7.

[jb.junior]

50 minutes ago, M. Hausknecht said:

Hey JB. Running the front end as high as you do puts some trail back in the front end that is lost running the 30mm (versus  28mm) offset triples. You could switch to 28mm offset triples and then drop the front to end up with the same trail. My understanding is that the most competitive R7s in MA are running tall (extended R6 forks).

Thanks for that.  Yeah, high front for sure increases trail, but also increases rake and height.  Will be neat to see how a "lower" set up feels.  

Generally, what does the difference feel like in running the same bike 20-40mm (or whatever) lower versus taller?  Why would that crew chief  / FZ tuner tell me that I run by bike "very high," implying that it's not a good set up, and have me lower it?

[jb.junior]

56 minutes ago, M. Hausknecht said:

Hey JB. Running the front end as high as you do puts some trail back in the front end that is lost running the 30mm (versus  28mm) offset triples. You could switch to 28mm offset triples and then drop the front to end up with the same trail. My understanding is that the most competitive R7s in MA are running tall (extended R6 forks).

On this bike, how much does trail increase, in actual measurements (mm), by decreasing offset by 1mm?  And is this relationship linear?  I.e., does every incremental 1mm in offset change equate to the same increase, or decrease, in trail?

[M. Hausknecht]

Yeah, the adjustable swing arm pivot kit is the only truly unique item Yosh is offering. I'll be interested to see if the better MA R7s use them. I have no personal experience using adjustable swingarm pivots and, at my stage of life and motorcycle racing career, I can't imagine putting in the time and expense for the extensive testing that will be needed to take advantage of it. With the AP version2 shock linkage I've already got decent anti-squat. I don't have any sense at all for whether I need more or less.

[M. Hausknecht]

2 hours ago, jb.junior said:

Thanks for that.  Yeah, high front for sure increases trail, but also increases rake and height.  Will be neat to see how a "lower" set up feels.  

Generally, what does the difference feel like in running the same bike 20-40mm (or whatever) lower versus taller?  Why would that crew chief  / FZ tuner tell me that I run by bike "very high," implying that it's not a good set up, and have me lower it?

Higher front and rear ride heights: greater tendency to lift the front tire on acceleration and the rear tire under braking; left-right or right-left transitions take a little longer; and less lean angle for a given corner radius and speed. So, trade-offs.

And now my editorial comment: I've raced karts, cars, and motorcycles, and won big races in all three at an amateur level. I think that once you get a chassis set-up you're comfortable with, can push pretty hard, and without any bad habits, the incremental benefit of further set up improvements is minimal. Like with a 90 second lap, maybe .3 to .4 of a second. Since I'm now further off the pace of the fast folks than that, I don't do more than make minor adjustments, with minimal impact, and focus mostly on improving my personal performance.

Edited February 2, 2023 by M. Hausknecht

[M. Hausknecht]

2 hours ago, jb.junior said:

On this bike, how much does trail increase, in actual measurements (mm), by decreasing offset by 1mm?  And is this relationship linear?  I.e., does every incremental 1mm in offset change equate to the same increase, or decrease, in trail?

Nothing as simple as 1 mm for 1 mm but the relationship should be linear. I have several books on motorcycle chassis design and setup, but none include any sort of equation for the relationship between fork offset and trail. Everything that effects ride heights also effects head angle and trail. If I were inclined to actually figure the specifics out, I'd get a bunch of graph paper and lay out all the relevant dimensions and angles, probably at 1/2 scale. 

[jb.junior]

6 hours ago, M. Hausknecht said:

Yeah, the adjustable swing arm pivot kit is the only truly unique item Yosh is offering. I'll be interested to see if the better MA R7s use them. I have no personal experience using adjustable swingarm pivots and, at my stage of life and motorcycle racing career, I can't imagine putting in the time and expense for the extensive testing that will be needed to take advantage of it. With the AP version2 shock linkage I've already got decent anti-squat. I don't have any sense at all for whether I need more or less.

I hear you.  I won't be getting one.  My old bike felt great.  If this new one doesn't have good anti-squat, I'll get another Robem rear linkage.

What is the length of the dog bone, eye to eye, on that AP linkage?

[jb.junior]

5 hours ago, M. Hausknecht said:

Higher front and rear ride heights: greater tendency to lift the front tire on acceleration and the rear tire under braking; left-right or right-left transitions take a little longer; and less lean angle for a given corner radius and speed. So, trade-offs.

And now my editorial comment: I've raced karts, cars, and motorcycles, and won big races in all three at an amateur level. I think that once you get a chassis set-up you're comfortable with, can push pretty hard, and without any bad habits, the incremental benefit of further set up improvements is minimal. Like with a 90 second lap, maybe .3 to .4 of a second. Since I'm now further off the pace of the fast folks than that, I don't do more than make minor adjustments, with minimal impact, and focus mostly on improving my personal performance.

More excellent info and analysis.  Thank you.

Yeah, there is a lot of "group think" in the paddock, and "everyone" seems to follow certain trends that are established by a minority of super-riders / teams.  I'm the only reasonably fastish guy that I know on the FZ that didn't have an after-market triple and an OEM trail.  But it felt great to me.  Could it be better?  Maybe, but like you said, I have so much improvement and gains to be made on my riding, that I'm the limitation, and not the bike.

I never noticed front lifting too much, but it does get light, here and there, but nothing unmanageable.  My back doesn't "scoot" a little under hard braking -- especially downhill -- but, again, nothing that I couldn't control.  The bike always seemed to turn in easy, so, again, no issues there.   I barely tune the bike's suspension, with the exception of changing front preload.  It just always felt pretty good.

 It will be interesting to see what a relatively different set up feels like.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by jb.junior

[jb.junior]

On 10/10/2022 at 5:43 PM, Evill_Ed said:

Got 'em 

 

Ed

Have you installed and ridden?  What's the verdict?

[Evill_Ed]

4 minutes ago, jb.junior said:

Have you installed and ridden?  What's the verdict?

Not yet, I'm getting ready to start the installation,  just waiting on some parts for the front end.  I want to try and measure the current geometry and them see whar changes the tripples and bushings make. 

Im glad ot see the new activity on this thread, the timing is good and there some great info being shared. 

Ed

[jb.junior]

Just now, Evill_Ed said:

Not yet, I'm getting ready to start the installation,  just waiting on some parts for the front end.  I want to try and measure the current geometry and them see whar changes the tripples and bushings make. 

Im glad ot see the new activity on this thread, the timing is good and there some great info being shared. 

Ed

Right on.  

What fork kit do you have?  Or is that what you're waiting on?

Keep us updated on your geometry.  I'm digging the thread also, as I'm about to compare two very different front end set ups, and really like seeing what other people are doing.  I've basically ridden my "old" bike the same way that the front end was set up when I bought it in 2020, and haven't thought much about what other options there are.  

[Evill_Ed]

4 minutes ago, jb.junior said:

Right on.  

What fork kit do you have?  Or is that what you're waiting on?

Keep us updated on your geometry.  I'm digging the thread also, as I'm about to compare two very different front end set ups, and really like seeing what other people are doing.  I've basically ridden my "old" bike the same way that the front end was set up when I bought it in 2020, and haven't thought much about what other options there are.  

I have Ohlins NIX 22 catridges . I want to disassemble to inspect and change the oil. I ordered new seals and bushings from All Balls, and a stem bearing kit for the new Robem stem.  

Ed

[jb.junior]

Just now, Evill_Ed said:

I have Ohlins NIX 22 catridges . I want to disassemble to inspect and change the oil. I ordered new seals and bushings from All Balls, and a stem bearing kit for the new Robem stem.  

Ed

Does the Ohlins cart kit increase the length of the fork?

[Evill_Ed]

6 minutes ago, jb.junior said:

Does the Ohlins cart kit increase the length of the fork?

No, the forks are the original length, same amount of travel as stock.  

Ed

[M. Hausknecht]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:54 PM, jb.junior said:

I hear you.  I won't be getting one.  My old bike felt great.  If this new one doesn't have good anti-squat, I'll get another Robem rear linkage.

What is the length of the dog bone, eye to eye, on that AP linkage?

Jeff, looks to be around 4 1/4". I had to eyeball it, since its all together right now and tough to measure.

Edited February 4, 2023 by M. Hausknecht

[Evill_Ed]

33 minutes ago, M. Hausknecht said:

Jeff, kooks to be around 4 1/4". I had to eyeball it, since its all together right now and tough to measure.

I do not have the total length recorded, but my AP Dog Bone was 6-mm shorter than the stock one center to center.

 

Ed 

[fzar]

22 hours ago, Evill_Ed said:

Im glad ot see the new activity on this thread, the timing is good and there some great info being shared. 

Ed

The Resurrection is occurring!!! Glad to see some interesting stuff being discussed (to me) anyways.

[Evill_Ed]

I received the Yamaha Lower Steering Bearing yesterday. I fit it to the Robem Aluminum steering stem. I was surprised that it is a slip fit, not pressed on like the factory stem. I suppose you wouldn't want to press fit an aluminum part? Has anyone else found this to be the case with the aluminum stem? 

 

Ed

[M. Hausknecht]

1 hour ago, Evill_Ed said:

I received the Yamaha Lower Steering Bearing yesterday. I fit it to the Robem Aluminum steering stem. I was surprised that it is a slip fit, not pressed on like the factory stem. I suppose you wouldn't want to press fit an aluminum part? Has anyone else found this to be the case with the aluminum stem? 

 

Ed

My experience with motorcycles and bicycles is that the bearings press into the headstock rather than being pressed onto the steering stem. This is my preference, since its far easier to press into, or knock a bearing out of, the headstock than on or off the stem. 

[jb.junior]

On 2/3/2023 at 2:21 PM, Evill_Ed said:

I do not have the total length recorded, but my AP Dog Bone was 6-mm shorter than the stock one center to center.

 

Ed 

Interesting.  I thought the idea was that one would increase the length of the dog bone to increase linearity of the stroke.  Maybe that change is made through the difference in linkage geometry.  But, for sure, the Robem link is 103 mm, and the one that's on my new bike is 90mm.  Again, this new bike was initially put together by Andy Palmer, so I would assume that that dog bone is some early version of what came to be his production bone.  But it would be great to confirm.  If I can get that, and if someone wants to measure the OEM dog bone, I'd be happy to make an Excel file with all and post.

[jb.junior]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:42 AM, jb.junior said:

On the bike that I've raced the past two seasons.  I don't have many reference points, but what I will say is that my bike always felt amazing.  It turned in easily, had great rear grip, and excellent front end stability.

• Front:
  • OEM R6 triple with R6 forks and AK20 kit.  From what I understand, the OEM offset on the R6 triple is 30mm.  The Ak20 kit extends fork length by 10mm.  So these two facts alone probably make what I have not particularly useful corollaries if you're running the R7 front end, but I'll go ahead and finish the post just as general reference points. 
  • It also has Traxxion fork cap extenders.  I actually have the top of the actual fork tube recessed in the triple top by about 2-4mm (I'll measure when I take it apart this weekend).  See pic attached (I know that it looks like an aftermarket triple top, but it's actually just a OEM spec one.  I.e., OEM measurements and offset.)
  • .95 + .9 = .925 springs.
• Rear:
  • Penske shock.  I don't know length.  But I ran a 625 lb. spring, and it was perfect (I weigh 165, and my bike is very, very light.)  Robem linkage.  I'd have to measure, but I have a lot of threads showing on the height adjuster.  
• Misc.:
  • Between where my forks sit in the triple, and the threads showing on my rear shock, I've been told that my bike sits very high.  
  • Everyone tells me that I should have less offset, and that's what most run.  But this bike just felt amazing, so that's what I ran.  I did try to raise the forks / lower the triple by 5mm at MotoAmerica VIR, per someone's idea, but I washed the front end out and crashed in the race.  So I moved it right back.

I've put together a new chassis and will post it below.

Just FYI: I just broke this bike down to frame and had a look under the triple.  The top fork tube was actually -5mm below the triple, which is surprisingly low.  I've never seen anyone with that kind of front end set up, and I've looked at a lot of these (fellow racers, etc.).  I wonder if my rear height is just that tall to compensate, or if I just really like a super-stable front end, or both.

[jb.junior]

3 hours ago, jb.junior said:

Interesting.  I thought the idea was that one would increase the length of the dog bone to increase linearity of the stroke.  Maybe that change is made through the difference in linkage geometry.  But, for sure, the Robem link is 103 mm, and the one that's on my new bike is 90mm.  Again, this new bike was initially put together by Andy Palmer, so I would assume that that dog bone is some early version of what came to be his production bone.  But it would be great to confirm.  If I can get that, and if someone wants to measure the OEM dog bone, I'd be happy to make an Excel file with all and post.

Plot thickens: I'm comparing my Robem linkage that just came off my bike to what Robem currently sells on their website, and they are different.  I must have some earlier iteration.  It is for sure Robem, as it's stamped on both pieces.  The new one is designed to have a double eyelet shock -- the old one is not.  So the old linkage portion, that I have, has three holes with bearings inside of them, all designed to have bearings and bushings inside of them.  Just like the OEM linkage. The new Robem has only two holes for bearings and bushings and, in place of the third, is a clevis; at the rear.

 I'll post pics soon.  Or maybe start a new thread for just rear linkages?

Edited February 6, 2023 by jb.junior

[jb.junior]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:17 AM, Evill_Ed said:

I received the Yamaha Lower Steering Bearing yesterday. I fit it to the Robem Aluminum steering stem. I was surprised that it is a slip fit, not pressed on like the factory stem. I suppose you wouldn't want to press fit an aluminum part? Has anyone else found this to be the case with the aluminum stem? 

 

Ed

Have you set this up and ridden, yet?

[Evill_Ed]

3 minutes ago, jb.junior said:

Have you set this up and ridden, yet?

Nope, parts are still in the boxes. 

 

Ed