Oil consumption

[bootstrapjesse]

Greetings all. I have a 2017 FZ-07. I’m the original owner and have 18k miles on the bike. A few months ago, I noticed that I was consuming oil, and have spent considerable time trouble shooting the issue since. In other words, there are no leaks. The bike is a daily driver and has been ridden sensibly and has never been ridden hard. I change the oil every 3k miles without fail. Motul 7100 10W-40 in spring/fall/winter and 15w-50 in summer (I live in Texas.)  I’m using about 240 ml over 1200 mi currently. I’m pretty sure that it’s the valve seals. I can’t image it would be the oil rings, given how well the bike has been maintained.  ...and she runs great as well.

I was wondering what the consensus is. Should I just leave it as is and keep adding oil as needed, or would it be worth having someone change the valve seals, or investigate further. I do have a YES extended warranty that expires in '23, but I think I’ll be hard pressed to get Yamaha to pay for the work. I’m quite sure they will say the oil consumption is within acceptable tolerances.

Thanks in advance for the info!

[M. Hausknecht]

Bear with me: has the bike been flashed and, if so, by whom?

 

[Triple Jim]

If valve seals are the problem, then if you let off the throttle for a few seconds in a gear that makes the engine rev a little, then when you apply the throttle again you'll see a puff of blue smoke out the exhaust.  You may need to have someone riding behind you to see the puff.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Triple Jim

[bootstrapjesse]

@Triple Jim Thanks for the tip... I'll give that a try. 

[bootstrapjesse]

Just now, M. Hausknecht said:

Bear with me: has the bike been flashed and, if so, by whom?

 

@M. Hausknecht Yes. 2wheeldynoworks. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by bootstrapjesse
To tag user

[M. Hausknecht]

My understanding from what I've read and heard from others is that the FTECU maps for the 07 add ignition advance, to the point of quickly causing damage to built race motors using the ignition maps directly from FTECU. I do not know if this is the case for the FTECU maps done by 2WDW so don't panic.

Too much spark advance leads to detonation and, eventually, to overheating the piston crown and lose of tension in the piston rings. I had that happen with a motor running an aRacer ecu which also had too much ignition advance. I started to consume oil at a noticeable rate well before the motor finally damaged a piston. I did not pay adequate attention to the increased oil consumption.

Your motor isn't built and you don't ride it hard, so I don't know that your problem is lost tension in your rings, but I believe you're correct that oil is getting into one or both combustion chambers. The number 1 cylinder (left side as you sit on the bike is the more problematic of the two). The seals on these motors are unremarkable and, due to the relatively low revs they run at (compared to an R6, for example), the valve seals aren't stressed.

As a next step, I'd pull the spark plugs and examine them closely with, if possible, a magnifying glass or something like this:   https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077PK49HB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.  I'd look carefully at the porcelain around the center electrode for small gray/silvery specks (tiny bits of aluminum), also at the joint between the center electrode and the porcelain to see if the porcelain has melted a little bit right at the seam, and at the ground electrode to see where it changes color (ideally near the 90 degree bend rather than closer to where the ground strap attaches to the plug body). 

There are worse things than burning a bit of oil but if the tune is the problem, you and many others would like to know that.

[bootstrapjesse]

Just now, M. Hausknecht said:

My understanding from what I've read and heard from others is that the FTECU maps for the 07 add ignition advance, to the point of quickly causing damage to built race motors using the ignition maps directly from FTECU. I do not know if this is the case for the FTECU maps done by 2WDW so don't panic.

Too much spark advance leads to detonation and, eventually, to overheating the piston crown and lose of tension in the piston rings. I had that happen with a motor running an aRacer ecu which also had too much ignition advance. I started to consume oil at a noticeable rate well before the motor finally damaged a piston. I did not pay adequate attention to the increased oil consumption.

Your motor isn't built and you don't ride it hard, so I don't know that your problem is lost tension in your rings, but I believe you're correct that oil is getting into one or both combustion chambers. The number 1 cylinder (left side as you sit on the bike is the more problematic of the two). The seals on these motors are unremarkable and, due to the relatively low revs they run at (compared to an R6, for example), the valve seals aren't stressed.

As a next step, I'd pull the spark plugs and examine them closely with, if possible, a magnifying glass or something like this:   https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077PK49HB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.  I'd look carefully at the porcelain around the center electrode for small gray/silvery specks (tiny bits of aluminum), also at the joint between the center electrode and the porcelain to see if the porcelain has melted a little bit right at the seam, and at the ground electrode to see where it changes color (ideally near the 90 degree bend rather than closer to where the ground strap attaches to the plug body). 

There are worse things than burning a bit of oil but if the tune is the problem, you and many others would like to know that.

Thanks so much for the insight. I'm gonna reach out to Nels over there at 2WDW just to see what he says.  I'll also pull the plugs and have a look-see. I just did them a few months ago. I had already noticed the oil consumption then and I think I still have the old plugs, so I'll take a look at those as well. Thanks again for such a thoughtful response. Gonna pray now that I haven't damaged my engine with the tune. (I've actually sent them my ECU twice, a second time for an update.)  Not panicking though, like you said! 

[M. Hausknecht]

When you check the plugs (including the previously removed set), if you see small back spots on the insulator surrounding the center electrode, those spots are from oil. Of course, if you're burning a lot of oil, the entire end of the plug could be a soiled mess.

You're welcome!

 

[bootstrapjesse]

Just now, M. Hausknecht said:

When you check the plugs (including the previously removed set), if you see small back spots on the insulator surrounding the center electrode, those spots are from oil. Of course, if you're burning a lot of oil, the entire end of the plug could be a soiled mess.

You're welcome!

 

Yes. The plugs I pulled out a few thousand miles ago were not fouled at all. They looked like all the other 7-8K mile plugs I've taken out of my bikes in the past.  I will certainly do a closer inspection based on what you told me to look for. 

[Pursuvant]

56 minutes ago, M. Hausknecht said:

There are worse things than burning a bit of oil but if the tune is the problem, you and many others would like to know that.

Just for a rapidly accumulated-high mileage bike as a single reference point, I have a 2019 purchased new in 2020 June. It was flashed by 2wdw in 2020 August with Yosh R-77 pipe flash, no flash updates.

Break-in 2000 miles with rapid oil & filter changes using HIFLO HF-204 & O'Reilly Auto Parts SAE-30 no-name cheap oil. At 2K miles switched to SHELL ROTELLA T6 15W-40 FULL SYNTHETIC diesel oil, every 6K to 9K depending on how aggressive my riding habits, & Texas weather. Have 54K+ on the clock in this third riding season, not enough oil consumption to even notice.

 

[sweetscience]

I've read that improvements to the 3rd gens include more stout valve seats.  Can't recall if it is coated or a different material is added.  Could it be Yamaha did this to address such issue as yours? 

[Triple Jim]

Just now, sweetscience said:

I've read that improvements to the 3rd gens include more stout valve seats.  Can't recall if it is coated or a different material is added.  Could it be Yamaha did this to address such issue as yours? 

Leaky valve seats will lower compression, but won't cause oil consumption.

[bootstrapjesse]

Update. Just noticed today. My #1 exhaust header pipe is super hot and glowing red like @elykyle15 describes in that post. Interestingly, if I point the IR thermometer way up high, closer to where the pipe is bolted onto the exhaust port, the temperature is lower. When I examined the plugs I pulled out 3k miles ago, one of them WAS darker (the ground and center electrode and ceramic) than the other one. I didn't mark them, but I assume the darker one is from the #1 side. I haven't pulled the current ones out yet, or done a close up inspection with a magnifying glass as suggested by @M. Hausknecht, but I guess I will.  The weird thing is, the engine temps are totally normal. 178 deg F today 35 miles on the highway on my way to work today. It was 99 deg F on the thermometer when I left home. The bike is "running" great.

[Triple Jim]

What is your average MPG reading for the last tank?

[bootstrapjesse]

Just now, Triple Jim said:

What is your average MPG reading for the last tank?

Hi there. When I looked the other day, it was some wacky low number. ...like 3.6. I reset it and after most of a tank it's 42 presently I believe. I'm gonna calculate it manually when I fill up next. I'll will post it for yall when I get the number. I know I'm richer than stock because of the tune, but I don't think its overly rich. Could be though.

[Triple Jim]

Well, for reference my stock 2020 averages in the low-mid 60s.  This spring I went through a tank in the NC mountain twisties where the speed limit was mostly 45, and I averaged 71 for the tank.  Checking against pump gallons and GPS miles, that 71 is really about 73.  I'm sure that if I got heavy handed I could get the average down to the mid-upper 50s, but it would be hard to go lower than that.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Triple Jim

[bootstrapjesse]

Just now, Triple Jim said:

Well, for reference my stock 2020 averages in the low-mid 60s.  This spring I went through a tank in the NC mountain twisties where the speed limit was mostly 45, and I averaged 71 for the tank.  Checking against pump gallons and GPS miles, that 71 is really about 73.  I'm sure that if I got heavy handed I could get the average down to the mid-upper 50s, but it would be hard to go lower than that.

Thanks TJ. Those are great numbers. I hope to see something similar when I finish this tank, refill and calculate manually. I'll post the numbers. I'll take a look and see what the display reads tonight when I get home as well. 

[bootstrapjesse]

On 7/10/2022 at 5:17 PM, M. Hausknecht said:

My understanding from what I've read and heard from others is that the FTECU maps for the 07 add ignition advance, to the point of quickly causing damage to built race motors using the ignition maps directly from FTECU. I do not know if this is the case for the FTECU maps done by 2WDW so don't panic.

Too much spark advance leads to detonation and, eventually, to overheating the piston crown and lose of tension in the piston rings. I had that happen with a motor running an aRacer ecu which also had too much ignition advance. I started to consume oil at a noticeable rate well before the motor finally damaged a piston. I did not pay adequate attention to the increased oil consumption.

Your motor isn't built and you don't ride it hard, so I don't know that your problem is lost tension in your rings, but I believe you're correct that oil is getting into one or both combustion chambers. The number 1 cylinder (left side as you sit on the bike is the more problematic of the two). The seals on these motors are unremarkable and, due to the relatively low revs they run at (compared to an R6, for example), the valve seals aren't stressed.

As a next step, I'd pull the spark plugs and examine them closely with, if possible, a magnifying glass or something like this:   https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077PK49HB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.  I'd look carefully at the porcelain around the center electrode for small gray/silvery specks (tiny bits of aluminum), also at the joint between the center electrode and the porcelain to see if the porcelain has melted a little bit right at the seam, and at the ground electrode to see where it changes color (ideally near the 90 degree bend rather than closer to where the ground strap attaches to the plug body). 

There are worse things than burning a bit of oil but if the tune is the problem, you and many others would like to know that.

Just heard back from 2WDW about the ingnition advance thing:

"Nowhere near enough ignition timing is added in our mapping to cause detonation with 91-93 octane fuel. Even when detonation occurs in any modern motorcycle engine, it damages the piston itself and results in a loss of compression past the compression rings far before it damages the oiling ring. "

 

[M. Hausknecht]

33 minutes ago, bootstrapjesse said:

Just heard back from 2WDW about the ingnition advance thing:

"Nowhere near enough ignition timing is added in our mapping to cause detonation with 91-93 octane fuel. Even when detonation occurs in any modern motorcycle engine, it damages the piston itself and results in a loss of compression past the compression rings far before it damages the oiling ring. "

 

I'm sure that is what they believe, and what they intend, so they've said what we'd expect. They admit they've added timing beyond what Yamaha uses and that makes sense if the end user uses higher octane fuel than the 87 octane Yamaha tunes for. I'd still examine the plugs closely.

I've read that the MA Yamaha guys who've stopped damaging engines don't run more than 25 degrees of ignition advance. They're running VP MGP fuel (94 oct). I don't know if the 25 degree "limit" is at WOT or at any throttle setting, and I also don't know their target AFRs; a bit lean makes matters worse with advanced timing whereas a bit rich helps to protect the engine. Some who've damaged motors ran the ignition maps provided by FTECU without alteration. I don't know whether 2WDW has made changes to their FTECU-based ignition maps.  I have no axe to grind with 2WDW and, I note, they do have a very good reputation and seem to know what they're doing.   

The oil consumption could be a big nothing, but I can tell you that my oil consumption became noticeable, and excessive, and then I destroyed an upper ring land, piston ring, etc, running premium alcohol free gas and the ignition maps provided by aRacer for a stock motor using the RC Super 2 ecu. They too just bumped the timing a bit from what Yamaha uses (WOT 26 degrees, as much as 38 degrees at part throttle).

[bootstrapjesse]

On 7/12/2022 at 3:55 PM, M. Hausknecht said:

I'm sure that is what they believe, and what they intend, so they've said what we'd expect. They admit they've added timing beyond what Yamaha uses and that makes sense if the end user uses higher octane fuel than the 87 octane Yamaha tunes for. I'd still examine the plugs closely.

I've read that the MA Yamaha guys who've stopped damaging engines don't run more than 25 degrees of ignition advance. They're running VP MGP fuel (94 oct). I don't know if the 25 degree "limit" is at WOT or at any throttle setting, and I also don't know their target AFRs; a bit lean makes matters worse with advanced timing whereas a bit rich helps to protect the engine. Some who've damaged motors ran the ignition maps provided by FTECU without alteration. I don't know whether 2WDW has made changes to their FTECU-based ignition maps.  I have no axe to grind with 2WDW and, I note, they do have a very good reputation and seem to know what they're doing.   

The oil consumption could be a big nothing, but I can tell you that my oil consumption became noticeable, and excessive, and then I destroyed an upper ring land, piston ring, etc, running premium alcohol free gas and the ignition maps provided by aRacer for a stock motor using the RC Super 2 ecu. They too just bumped the timing a bit from what Yamaha uses (WOT 26 degrees, as much as 38 degrees at part throttle).

That does sound a bit frightening. So before I go any further, should I put the stock tune back on and remove the modified tune? Like, send the ECU back to 2WDW? ...and can I run the bike with the stock tune and the non-stock exhaust? I was gonna bring the bike to a mechanic next week. He would start by doing a leak-down  and compression test. Shouldn't I take the ECU question out of the equation first?

[M. Hausknecht]

The damage I describe occurs over time. Since you're headed to a mechanic soon, any incremental damage (if there is any at all) is likely to be minimal. The leakdown test should tell you if the rings are compromised, and examining the plugs should reveal if there is a detonation issue. I'd wait and see what the evidence suggests before blaming the tune. Its not like returning to the stock tune will fix anything if, in fact, there is damage.

[wollerms]

I have a 2019 with a Akrapovic full exhaust (DB killer in), and a reflashed ecu from 2WDW. 13,000 miles it doesn't burn a drop of oil and I ride strictly in the mountains. I get 50-55 mpg running 90-93 octane no ethanol, depends on where I stop to gas up.  

[firstyammerha]

240 ml usage over 1200 miles doesn't sound excessive to me. Thats like a quart in 5000 miles .Just my opinion.

[Exsporty]

240 ml over 1200 miles is not burning oil. Some would say that is normal usage. Valve seals usually give a puff of blue smoke upon cold start after sitting overnight. Dealer won't do anything for 240 ml. Try another brand of oil to see if that helps. Beyond that just ride and add when you need to. 

[bootstrapjesse]

Yes. Thanks to all for the input and encouragement. I'll keep you all posted. Gonna keep riding her to work every day. I have a Kawi Z900 as well, my FZ is the favorite though! I have Ohlins fork cartridges on the front and an Ohlins street shock. Handles like a razor and super light compared to the Z. Its 101 Deg today. So hot!