Does anybody else hate where the horn button is positioned?

[rick]

Except for the output of the alternator which is likely somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 volts AC, the whole of the bike's electrical system runs "12V" DC so that's what those switches see. And I put it in quotes cause the charge system bumps that up to an actual ~14 volts DC.
 
The headlights and that poor excuse for a horn will draw different amounts of current. I'd be surprised if there were not relays powering the headlights, one each for low and high beam. The amperage thru those switches will be just what it takes to activate those relays (well lower than what a 55W bulb draws ~ 4 amps). That current load to run the the headlights does not go thru the switches, it goes thru the heavy contacts inside the relay direct from the battery to the lights. The starter relay - the thing that lets out a large clack under the seat when you hit the starter button does the same thing.
 
Horns, especially dual loud ones like you'd find on a car, can draw enough current to arc and ruin/weld the contacts of a cheap switch. OE motorcycle horns are a bit anemic and as a result can have their loads run right thru the switch. Put dual FIAMM horns in there and you better add a relay.
 
The question of the day - are those 2 switches designed to carry the same load and does the horn draw more current than the high beam's relay (or vice-versa)? If the answer to the 1st is yes and the answer to the 2nd is no, then go ahead and swap w/o concern. If it's the other way round, then you run the risk of one of those switches failing at some point.
 
Also keep in mind, someone doing a state safety inspection might tell you to put it back to OE before he puts his signature on the paperwork.
 
That said, the horn button is in a bit of an odd place, but we'll all get used to it and it'll quickly become a non-issue, imo.

[crazycracka501]

Horns, especially dual loud ones like you'd find on a car, can draw enough current to arc and ruin/weld the contacts of a cheap switch. OE motorcycle horns are a bit anemic and as a result can have their loads run right thru the switch. Put dual FIAMM horns in there and you better add a relay.
 
The question of the day - are those 2 switches designed to carry the same load and does the horn draw more current than the high beam's relay (or vice-versa)? If the answer to the 1st is yes and the answer to the 2nd is no, then go ahead and swap w/o concern. If it's the other way round, then you run the risk of one of those switches failing at some point.

Wow Rick, great breakdown.  That was exactly the type of situation I had trapped in my mind when I posted my previous comments, you were able to spell it out.  I do intend to install an aftermarket Denali horn, so your info was quite useful.  Thanks man!

[rick]

Yer welcome.
 
I threw the OE horn( calling it a horn is laughable) on my Futura in the bin and I swear it made more noise hitting the can than it could ever with 12V applied. I hid 2 FIAMMs inside the fairing and used the stock harness going to the horns to fire one relay. I fed that relay from another relay that I wired to be closed only with the key on (that took some soldering into one of the lighting circuits). With 2 relays, the horn can't get stuck balring from a stuck relay some day. With that accessory plug behind the regulator being switched, it's a perfect place to power that control relay.
 
If I were to do this ( and had planned on it until I heard the horn - not bad imo, so it'll wait) I would run a 14g or maybe even 12g (smaller the number, bigger the wire) wire from the battery (fused there of course) to that 1st relay. The other side of that relay then goes to the relay switched by the horn button. The horn is in series with that relay just the way the starter is in series with the relay under the seat.
 
So when you turn on the key, the 1st relay sends battery voltage directly to the 2nd. When you push the horn button, that relay closes and sends voltage thru the horn(s).
 
12g wire is probably overkill for the current draw and distance the voltage has to travel. BTW, electrons do not flow down the length of a wire - that's a whole nuther conversation. But if you are going to the trouble of letting 'em hear you, may as well not handicap the horn by having a voltage drop over the length of the wiring caused by using too light of a gauge.

[jerryv]

Yer welcome. 
I threw the OE horn( calling it a horn is laughable) on my Futura in the bin and I swear it made more noise hitting the can than it could ever with 12V applied. I hid 2 FIAMMs inside the fairing and used the stock harness going to the horns to fire one relay. I fed that relay from another relay that I wired to be closed only with the key on (that took some soldering into one of the lighting circuits). With 2 relays, the horn can't get stuck balring from a stuck relay some day. With that accessory plug behind the regulator being switched, it's a perfect place to power that control relay.
 
If I were to do this ( and had planned on it until I heard the horn - not bad imo, so it'll wait) I would run a 14g or maybe even 12g (smaller the number, bigger the wire) wire from the battery (fused there of course) to that 1st relay. The other side of that relay then goes to the relay switched by the horn button. The horn is in series with that relay just the way the starter is in series with the relay under the seat.
 
So when you turn on the key, the 1st relay sends battery voltage directly to the 2nd. When you push the horn button, that relay closes and sends voltage thru the horn(s).
 
12g wire is probably overkill for the current draw and distance the voltage has to travel. BTW, electrons do not flow down the length of a wire - that's a whole nuther conversation. But if you are going to the trouble of letting 'em hear you, may as well not handicap the horn by having a voltage drop over the length of the wiring caused by using too light of a gauge.

OMG... some of us need the dummies version of this please .. lol.  I'd settle for IKEA diagrams

[rick]

Heehee, sorry,
It actually is not as complicated as it may seem.
 
Think of the relay this way. There are 2 circuits in the little box - one on the low current side (the horn button) and one on the high current side (the horn or starter motor, headlights, etc. - anything that will draw more current than the little contacts in the switchgear can really handle.
 
With it hooked up, when you hit the starter button, you close a circuit in the relay that activates an electromagnet(magnet is the important part) This then slams 2 heavyweight contacts together allowing voltage to go to the "appliance" - your very loud horns. That voltage is supplied direct from the battery so there's a minimum of voltage drop.
 
OK, the IKE version
 
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/rashapir/hornrelay_zps4a8e9e34.jpg
 
 

[rick]

Not to change the subject, but while we're on relays.
 
Things like starter motors do not behave like Ohm's law (Volts(V) = Amps (I) x Resistance® predicts. If you supply a less than optimal voltage (read weak battery) to a motor, the motor will try to draw even more current than it would normally would. This is not only really hard on the starter relay's contacts, but also results in an even bigger voltage drop on the entire system.
 
Lots of people think that cold weather is hard on a battery. Well, there are 2 things that kill batteries, heat and letting them get discharged. If yer like me and let the bike sleep over the winter, buy a good float charger and leave it plugged in all winter. That way, when spring comes, you'll get a nice spin-up from the starter instead of an ugly click and them a smoked relay.

[Guest Ralph]

Wile I don't have a problem with were the switches are I do think they are a bit cheap and nasty looking,
on mine and others I have looked at the indicator switch is very loose feeling, the switches on the MT 125
seem much better but don't know if they would fit.

[jerryv]

Heehee, sorry, It actually is not as complicated as it may seem.
 
Think of the relay this way. There are 2 circuits in the little box - one on the low current side (the horn button) and one on the high current side (the horn or starter motor, headlights, etc. - anything that will draw more current than the little contacts in the switchgear can really handle.
 
With it hooked up, when you hit the starter button, you close a circuit in the relay that activates an electromagnet(magnet is the important part) This then slams 2 heavyweight contacts together allowing voltage to go to the "appliance" - your very loud horns. That voltage is supplied direct from the battery so there's a minimum of voltage drop.
 
OK, the IKE version
 
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/rashapir/hornrelay_zps4a8e9e34.jpg
 

So the relay protects the thinner wiring and less heavy duty switches so they don't over-load?  Thanks for the explanation and diagram

[mjh937]

What using a relay really does is allow lighter wires and switches to be used, otherwise you would need to run heavy wires to heavy-duty switches for each high draw circuit.

[qldnat]

Yeah I hate it too. Should be to the left not all the way over to right.

[valhalla]

Not too fond of the positioning of the horn button myself and I often find myself looking at the red "start engine/stop switch" with a disconcerting eye as well. One of these days while the engine is running I'm going to inadvertently push down (e.g: "start engine") instead of up to kill the engine. I hope them clever Yamaha engineers put an idiot proof override in there so it won't grind the starter if or when this does happen.

[YZEtc]

Not too fond of the positioning of the horn button myself and I often find myself looking at the red "start engine/stop switch" with a disconcerting eye as well. One of these days while the engine is running I'm going to inadvertently push down (e.g: "start engine") instead of up to kill the engine. I hope them clever Yamaha engineers put an idiot proof override in there so it won't grind the starter if or when this does happen.

All that will happen is the starter motor will be switched on and spin for as long as you have the switch turned to the START position, no different if, when starting a stopped engine, you hold the switch to START for a second even after the engine fires and runs on it's own. Unlike a car, the electric start motor is always meshed with gears to the thing on the generator rotor (which is bolted down to the crankshaft) called the "starter clutch".This is a one-way clutch that hooks-up in one direction and slips in the other direction.
Once the engine starts and is turning faster than the starter motor can turn it, the starter clutch slips so the faster-turning crankshaft/generator rotor will not, in turn, make the starter motor turn faster.
 

[valhalla]

Not too fond of the positioning of the horn button myself and I often find myself looking at the red "start engine/stop switch" with a disconcerting eye as well. One of these days while the engine is running I'm going to inadvertently push down (e.g: "start engine") instead of up to kill the engine. I hope them clever Yamaha engineers put an idiot proof override in there so it won't grind the starter if or when this does happen.

All that will happen is the starter motor will be switched on and spin for as long as you have the switch turned to the START position, no different if, when starting a stopped engine, you hold the switch to START for a second even after the engine fires and runs on it's own. Unlike a car, the electric start motor is always meshed with gears to the thing on the generator rotor (which is bolted down to the crankshaft) called the "starter clutch".This is a one-way clutch that hooks-up in one direction and slips in the other direction.
Once the engine starts and is turning faster than the starter motor can turn it, the starter clutch slips so the faster-turning crankshaft/generator rotor will not, in turn, make the starter motor turn faster.

Good stuff. Thanks YZEtc! 

[rick]

Might be interesting to do this actually to see if the ECU recognizes the starter spinning after the motor is running by turning on the check engine light.
 
One good way to overheat and kill a starter motor is to have the starter solenoid get stuck closed and allow the starter to run and run.
 
Of course, if you run some sort of voltmeter/monitor, you'll see this as the starter does draw some serious amperage.

[hobbs]

For the first few days, there was a time or two I clicked down on the starter to kill the motor..
 
Well it didn't kill the motor, but it also didn't kill anything else.
 
Made some strange noise, but that was all. Not nearly as bad as the time a co-worker tried to start the already running pickup truck we were hauling trash with.
 
Bike starts fine at 7,000 miles despite the snafu.

[Allan]

I don't mind any of the controls or placement of them on this bike. I am actually a fan of the starter and how it works. Its different from the classic designs we see. I like the radicalness and the uniqueness that comes with it. All you have to do is remember to push up to kill the bike and down to start it.

[mjh937]

I always shut down with the key so I will not have to worry about it. The worst that will happen is I could push up to start. That definitely will not hurt anything.

[lonerider]

I really like the killing/starter button. But i don't like the location of the horn button. When you used to have the same location over more than 20 years, i missed the horn button a few times. At least, Yamaha didn't change it like Honda did.
 

[mjh937]

I really like the killing/starter button. But i don't like the location of the horn button. When you used to have the same location over more than 20 years, i missed the horn button a few times. At least, Yamaha didn't change it like Honda did.

What did Honda do?

[lonerider]

I really like the killing/starter button. But i don't like the location of the horn button. When you used to have the same location over more than 20 years, i missed the horn button a few times. At least, Yamaha didn't change it like Honda did.

What did Honda do?

On several models, Honda put the horn button above the turn signals. So, each time i reach for the turn signal, i press the horn button instead. When you hear a horn from a motorcycle making a turn, bet that's a recent Honda.  lol. 

[crazycracka501]

I find myself sounding the horn more often when trying to kill the turn signal with my thicker winter riding gloves on.

[motomeek]

I find myself sounding the horn more often when trying to kill the turn signal with my thicker winter riding gloves on.

+1! Makes me glad I didn't replace my horn with a Denali Soundbomb. 

[crazycracka501]

I find myself sounding the horn more often when trying to kill the turn signal with my thicker winter riding gloves on.

+1! Makes me glad I didn't replace my horn with a Denali Soundbomb. 

 
 
Oh yea, I was totally going to replace mine too. Will have to rewire the horn to high beam flasher for sure before adding that mod.

[bubba]

I guess my thumbs are too short for where the horn is located. I also own a FJ-09 and the horn is positioned where it should be. Can't understand why Yamaha would have different placements of the horn button on their bikes. Perhaps one of these would help http://www.pmrcomponents.com/pmrweb_010.htm Pricey at $100

[yotaman02]

i have the same problem. i have to move my whole hand to reach it. makes it hard to blow the horn at stoplights to get dumba$$ looking at the phone to go.