R7 OEM quick shifter and forks

[FrodoFZ]

Does anyone know if the R7 forks can transplant over to the FZ platform? Same goes for the OEM R7 quickshifter. My thinking is these could be viable options instead of aftermarket options  

Edited April 9, 2022 by FrodoFZ

[M. Hausknecht]

The R7 doesn't come with a quick shifter although Yamaha makes one for it; so do a handful of other companies. I have an aRacer quick shifter on my MT 07 race bike. It works well, uses fuel or spark cut out that is adjustable, and can be set up either standard or GP shift. It is a benefit on the track when being faster accelerating can matter. I wouldn't bother to put one on a street bike but to each his own. I dunno if you'd need an R7 ecu to use the Yamaha R7 quick shifter on an 07.

Since the basic frame is the same for the R7 as the FZ/MT o7, the triple clamps, forks, brakes, fender, and front wheel of the R7 should fit an FZ/MT 07. There are, however, parts readily available to put R6 forks etc. on an 07, and used, set up R6 front ends are readily available; that is the route I'd go if I wanted stiffer forks. OEM Yamaha parts availability sux right now and you'll spend more for an R7 front end you buy in pieces even if you can find the parts than a set up used R6 front end.  

[FrodoFZ]

Sorry for some reason I thought it was an OEM quick shifter. I’ve been looking at R6 front ends for my project bike and xsr. I’m thinking about OEM R6 wheels front and back for the xsr, for something a little different. I am not a fan of the OEM wheels that come on the 07/09 platforms by any means lol.

[stickshift]

Just now, FrodoFZ said:

Sorry for some reason I thought it was an OEM quick shifter. I’ve been looking at R6 front ends for my project bike and xsr. I’m thinking about OEM R6 wheels front and back for the xsr, for something a little different. I am not a fan of the OEM wheels that come on the 07/09 platforms by any means lol.

Yamaha offers the quickshifter as an accessory. You could physically fit it to the MT, but it wouldn't communicate with the ECU to kill spark or fuel so you'd need to find another way. 

I have a power commander (PCV) on my MT, you can use any aftermarket push sensor with it. After reading some reviews I bought one of these cheaper units and it works very well.

Shifting ContRoll

---

 

 

[Randy]

The stock ECU already has the ability to to accept the quick shifter. FTECU offers a harness  to communicate between the two of them. This includes all years of the bike. You would need a flash to turn on the QS option.  I am personally not a fan of the PC5. It’s just old school technology. A good base map with an auto tuner will always work way better than the piggyback systems.

Its been heavily discussed in the forum but the general consensus is the R6 forks are just way to stiff for the FZ/MT chassis. You would be much better of with a cartridge kit (Ohlins NIX 22’s are my choice) and to adjust the geometry of the bike. ROBEM sells a set of triple clamps with various offsets (26mm work awesome on the track) and a rear link which corrects the rear geometry.  To be honest, the rear link and corrected fork oil height along with the proper spring for your weight would drastically change the handling of your bike….just my option though 

[Randy]

Jesus Christ man….I just read your “super hooligan” build. That thing is a monster ! Would definitely buy some ROBEM 50mm triples and some R6 forks. Maybe even look at some YZ450 ones….your bike looks stout as the proverbial brick shithouse ! Whatcha got planned for the engine ?

[shinyribs]

Just now, Randy said:

 

Its been heavily discussed in the forum but the general consensus is the R6 forks are just way to stiff for the FZ/MT chassis. You would be much better of with a cartridge kit (Ohlins NIX 22’s are my choice) and to adjust the geometry of the bike. 

How are R6 forks too stiff? Are you talking about valving? 

Retaining the stock forks by using a cartridge means you RETAIN the geometry of the bike. It doesn't adjust any geometry, it just addresses damping control. 

[Randy]

 

Just now, shinyribs said:

How are R6 forks too stiff? Are you talking about valving? 

Retaining the stock forks by using a cartridge means you RETAIN the geometry of the bike. It doesn't adjust any geometry, it just addresses damping control. 

 So there is a discussion on here titled “FZ07R….is the r6 fork swap worth it”….highly encourage you to read it. But to answer your question, the FZ/MT forks flex while under high stress. The R6 ones do not which upsets the chassis. Racers have documented of cracked and warped frames due to the transfer of that stress to the frame.

As far as the geometry issue, no cartridges will not address that. But the addition of the ROBEM Engineering triples with adjustable offsets will. The stock offset is 40mm, which is ok if you’re going in a straight line. Change that to a 26mm and you’ll start carving up some corners. But the real problem with the bike is the rear link. It does not allow the shock to ride where it needs to be in its stroke. Once you correct that you will have a much more planted and predictable rear end.

 

[FrodoFZ]

6 hours ago, Randy said:

Jesus Christ man….I just read your “super hooligan” build. That thing is a monster ! Would definitely buy some ROBEM 50mm triples and some R6 forks. Maybe even look at some YZ450 ones….your bike looks stout as the proverbial brick shithouse ! Whatcha got planned for the engine ?

Lol thanks man! I haven't made up my mind front suspension-wise as of yet, but I've been leaning towards a cartridge kit along solely because I've already spent some time modifying the OEM triples to accept the number plate I've made and I'm very happy with how it sits 'on' the front of the bike versus sticking 'out in front' the bike somewhat.

But engine wise, the plan is as follows in due time: V&H pro series headwork (their spec cam and valve train components as well); ARP stud kit, CP 82mm 13.5:1 pistons, CP h-beam rods, send crank off to Marine Crank for lightening/balancing along with welding drive gear to crank (been noted as a potential weak point in modded engines); charging rotor lightening; starter sprag lightening; cylinder boring, re-plating, and decking the block (I think closed-deck would be the best option compared to semi-open, but I'm going to weigh what Millennium has to say about it); undercutting trans gears, Suter slipper (might experiment with Rekluse friction discs and compare results between more, thinner discs compared to less but thicker OEM discs. Throw in some basket sleeves also); WPC treat every moving part and surface possible; and experiment with custom velocity stacks on dimpled OEM-spec TB's vs OEM TB's (guys at V&H said they actually lost HP on their flat track motors when they ran bored TB's combined with their headwork so I'll take their word for it lol), and as far as engine tuning/management its between Woolich and FTECU. And finally I'm going to fab up a full titanium exhaust and the Pro Bolt titanium bolt kit for the outside of the motor.

Thought about a turbo kit briefly, but a nasty N/A build is much cooler, cleaner looking, and lighter. My end goal is to have a one of a kind FZ inside and out 

[Randy]

Just now, FrodoFZ said:

Lol thanks man! I haven't made up my mind front suspension-wise as of yet, but I've been leaning towards a cartridge kit along solely because I've already spent some time modifying the OEM triples to accept the number plate I've made and I'm very happy with how it sits 'on' the front of the bike versus sticking 'out in front' the bike somewhat.

But engine wise, the plan is as follows in due time: V&H pro series headwork (their spec cam and valve train components as well); ARP stud kit, CP 82mm 13.5:1 pistons, CP h-beam rods, send crank off to Marine Crank for lightening/balancing along with welding drive gear to crank (been noted as a potential weak point in modded engines); charging rotor lightening; starter sprag lightening; cylinder boring, re-plating, and decking the block (I think closed-deck would be the best option compared to semi-open, but I'm going to weigh what Millennium has to say about it); undercutting trans gears, Suter slipper (might experiment with Rekluse friction discs and compare results between more, thinner discs compared to less but thicker OEM discs. Throw in some basket sleeves also); WPC treat every moving part and surface possible; and experiment with custom velocity stacks on dimpled OEM-spec TB's vs OEM TB's (guys at V&H said they actually lost HP on their flat track motors when they ran bored TB's combined with their headwork so I'll take their word for it lol), and as far as engine tuning/management its between Woolich and FTECU. And finally I'm going to fab up a full titanium exhaust and the Pro Bolt titanium bolt kit for the outside of the motor.

Thought about a turbo kit briefly, but a nasty N/A build is much cooler, cleaner looking, and lighter. My end goal is to have a one of a kind FZ inside and out 

Lol…I just spent the last 8 months getting the parts together  to do almost the same build. I didn’t know V&H was doing the flat trackers or I would have consulted with them. Had Millennium do the port and polish on the heads and the closed deck conversion. WEB took care of my cams. For some reason WEB had the Millennium guys use valve guides out of a YZ426…ya might want to check into that. I am having Livengood put everything together. The wait time on the pistons and cams was ridiculous and now its another 3 to 4 months for the build….get ready to watch the  and dish out $$$$ lol  

[FrodoFZ]

Just now, Randy said:

Lol…I just spent the last 8 months getting the parts together  to do almost the same build. I didn’t know V&H was doing the flat trackers or I would have consulted with them. Had Millennium do the port and polish on the heads and the closed deck conversion. WEB took care of my cams. For some reason WEB had the Millennium guys use valve guides out of a YZ426…ya might want to check into that. I am having Livengood put everything together. The wait time on the pistons and cams was ridiculous and now its another 3 to 4 months for the build….get ready to watch the  and dish out $$$$ lol  

Nice! Did millennium do a dimple port job or just cnc? Are you running over-bore pistons? I want to wpc treat the block because I saw one of APs motors crack a crank saddle that was making 124 hp, according to his Instagram post lol. Not saying I’ll get that number but the reassurance helps 

[Randy]

Just now, FrodoFZ said:

Nice! Did millennium do a dimple port job or just cnc? Are you running over-bore pistons? I want to wpc treat the block because I saw one of APs motors crack a crank saddle that was making 124 hp, according to his Instagram post lol. Not saying I’ll get that number but the reassurance helps 

It was a “KWS CNC port”….don’t know what KWS came up with but its what I ended up with lol. Here’s a copy of the receipt…

I am running standard bore but high compression CP jugs. They did some sort of surface treatment when the closed deck was done on the cylinders. Not sure what a WPC treat is so I’m about to Google that lol. Only thing I didn’t do was the crank but I’m seriously thinking about EBay’n one right now and getting sent out for that weld up. A 124 HP is nuts !! Me, I’m hoping for a solid 100 hp just so I dont get smoked by them Aprilla RS660’s….prolly gone run Sunoco 260GT+ so I’m sure I will easily get that. 

[FrodoFZ]

Just now, Randy said:

It was a “KWS CNC port”….don’t know what KWS came up with but its what I ended up with lol. Here’s a copy of the receipt…

I am running standard bore but high compression CP jugs. They did some sort of surface treatment when the closed deck was done on the cylinders. Not sure what a WPC treat is so I’m about to Google that lol. Only thing I didn’t do was the crank but I’m seriously thinking about EBay’n one right now and getting sent out for that weld up. A 124 HP is nuts !! Me, I’m hoping for a solid 100 hp just so I dont get smoked by them Aprilla RS660’s….prolly gone run Sunoco 260GT+ so I’m sure I will easily get that. 

I think that’s definitely feasible. I’m no engine builder but from what I’ve read it sounds like it’ll work lol. I’m shooting for 110ish at the wheel. Idk if I’m over shooting but I figure with a bunch of lightening and going with over-bore pistons it shouldn’t be a problem with a good tune n what not.

124 is nuts tho, maybe I should realign my sights I know  Extreme Creations in Australia has a turbo’d motor with upgraded rods, pistons, and a few other things and I think they got 143-ish at the wheel….. that is just sick lol.

I’m kind of contemplating running e85, but I haven’t really done my due diligence in researching if the stock injectors can handle that nor if I could find any aftermarket/swapped injectors that would work. I do want to street this bike and have access to 110 and non-ethanol 93 where I live, so I think a mix of those might be the best bet for turning out some healthy hp.

A year-ish ago Marine Crank quoted me $600 for lightening and balancing. That’s not too bad, and WPC the crank would give you a really stout crank capable of being reliable at 100 ponies. 
 

 

 

 

[Randy]

Man I’ve had my trigger finger poised on that Extreme kit for so long now….I am honestly scared that the hit coming off that thing will high side the shet out me on corner exit lol ! As far as injectors I recently crunched the numbers on those. It seems the stock 250cc injectors will barely be able to handle a 100hp. I know for a fact they couldn’t do the flow rate on E85. So far I have found YZ450F injectors (I think they are 450 cc flow rate) are bolt in but really need something in the 325cc range to be optimal. Gonna wait and see what the dyno and the guys at Livengood say.

[M. Hausknecht]

A couple thoughts for you guys.

First, the stock injectors very likely won't be sufficient for anything over about 95 HP at the rear wheel with gas. After dyno tuning my recently completed motor at KWS, 92 SAE corrected HP at the rear wheel, I did  two track days to get the on-track tuning done. I saw injector duty cycles reach 88%. To assure an adequate margin of safety, you really don't want to exceed  with gas90%. Since you can't get HP without fuel, you'll need bigger injectors or higher fuel pressure to reach your targets. E85, for sure, bigger injectors.

Second, I'm using fairly mild Web Cams with stock springs and a rev limit of 10,600. I'm not intending to rev it much past 10,000. There is more power to be had with bigger cams and more revs but the wear and tear on the valve train, I'm told by Matt Spicer, is significant. And then there is the crank saddle cracking from running 11,000-12,000 rpm. When Robem was running 07s they tore their motors down every other MA weekend. Yes, big power but do you guys really want to at least have to pull the head after every few hours of running time? I did that with a previous race bike and while it allowed me to win a lot of races, it was a lot of work (new twin coil valve springs and titanium tops every two hours running time). 

Third, I've got a set of standard bore 13:1 CP pistons and Carillo rods for my next build. In discussions with Gregg Spears, he discouraged me from going to 82mm pistons because the cylinder walls end up pretty thin and, again, frequent tear downs are advised to check for cracks. I'm waiting on Web Cams for Spears spec cams, which like the cams I have already, aren't high lift but their duration is longer than my current set. 

Fuel is key for big power. VP MR 12 seems to generate the most power, 2-2.5 HP more than virtually anything else and about  4-5 HP over pump gas, but its scary expensive and highly corrosive (should be drained and flushed after every day of use). I'm using Sunoco 260GT, 100 octane with 9.8% ethanol for added oxygen (3.7%). 260GT Plus is a little higher octane, with a little more  oxygen but 100HP (SAE corrected) seems a lofty goal. I drain my fuel after every day/weekend, to minimize water absorption.

I'm not sure what Millenium means by a "KWS CNC port". KWS has only just started to explore head work on the CP2. When I was there last month, I talked with Mike Godin about what they were doing. He suspects that, like the R6, there is power to be had in closing up the intake ports in the bowl area but they hadn't done it yet and dynoed. 

Web Cams seems to make a bunch of cams for the CP2 but I'm finding specs hard to come by (proprietary info and all that). I'm interested in lift and duration numbers, if you'd care to share. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FrodoFZ]

Just now, M. Hausknecht said:

A couple thoughts for you guys.

First, the stock injectors very likely won't be sufficient for anything over about 95 HP at the rear wheel with gas. After dyno tuning my recently completed motor at KWS, 92 SAE corrected HP at the rear wheel, I did  two track days to get the on-track tuning done. I saw injector duty cycles reach 88%. To assure an adequate margin of safety, you really don't want to exceed  with gas90%. Since you can't get HP without fuel, you'll need bigger injectors or higher fuel pressure to reach your targets. E85, for sure, bigger injectors.

Second, I'm using fairly mild Web Cams with stock springs and a rev limit of 10,600. I'm not intending to rev it much past 10,000. There is more power to be had with bigger cams and more revs but the wear and tear on the valve train, I'm told by Matt Spicer, is significant. And then there is the crank saddle cracking from running 11,000-12,000 rpm. When Robem was running 07s they tore their motors down every other MA weekend. Yes, big power but do you guys really want to at least have to pull the head after every few hours of running time? I did that with a previous race bike and while it allowed me to win a lot of races, it was a lot of work (new twin coil valve springs and titanium tops every two hours running time). 

Third, I've got a set of standard bore 13:1 CP pistons and Carillo rods for my next build. In discussions with Gregg Spears, he discouraged me from going to 82mm pistons because the cylinder walls end up pretty thin and, again, frequent tear downs are advised to check for cracks. I'm waiting on Web Cams for Spears spec cams, which like the cams I have already, aren't high lift but their duration is longer than my current set. 

Fuel is key for big power. VP MR 12 seems to generate the most power, 2-2.5 HP more than virtually anything else and about  4-5 HP over pump gas, but its scary expensive and highly corrosive (should be drained and flushed after every day of use). I'm using Sunoco 260GT, 100 octane with 9.8% ethanol for added oxygen (3.7%). 260GT Plus is a little higher octane, with a little more  oxygen but 100HP (SAE corrected) seems a lofty goal. I drain my fuel after every day/weekend, to minimize water absorption.

I'm not sure what Millenium means by a "KWS CNC port". KWS has only just started to explore head work on the CP2. When I was there last month, I talked with Mike Godin about what they were doing. He suspects that, like the R6, there is power to be had in closing up the intake ports in the bowl area but they hadn't done it yet and dynoed. 

Web Cams seems to make a bunch of cams for the CP2 but I'm finding specs hard to come by (proprietary info and all that). I'm interested in lift and duration numbers, if you'd care to share. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I appreciate your input!

Injectors is one thing I haven’t really delved into outside of questioning if they need to be upgraded. Maybe I’ll reach out to Extreme Creations for injector recommendations since they are making big power. What kind of engine management are you using?
 

I don’t really have any concerns for reliability or frequent tearing down/rebuilding. This motor is not going to see the constant heavy load racing conditions. At most it’s gonna be dogged a bit during break-in/tuning on the dyno and from stop light to stop light here n there. 
I’m feeling pretty good about the WPC treatment addressing any concerns I have about the structural integrity of the saddles, crank, block, and especially with the closed-deck over-bore cylinders. WPC treatment is some really interesting stuff, it’s a form of micro-shot peening that changes the grain structure on the surface of whatever it’s applied, essentially ridding said surface of any kind of stress risers while also hardening the surface. Friction is also reduced and there is virtually no dimensional changes made to what it’s applied to. Check it out sometime there’s plenty of YouTube vids on it and it’s real big in the car racing world from my knowledge. 
Another reason I’m choosing to run 82mm vs 83mm pistons is to help address reliability.
 

The V&H head work consists of some epoxying. I’m not sure what the specs  are on the cams tho, they wouldn’t disclose that to me lol. They run the OEM valves in their motors, but do have a small amount of titanium valves available that the end user could install themselves, but I’m sure that creates a whole new headache. 
I figured they would be the way to go with a near-750cc motor build since that’s what displacement the flat trackers are.

[M. Hausknecht]

I'm using an aRacer Super 2 ECU and their SpeedTuning software on a laptop. I have decidedly mixed feelings about it. It is reasonably flexible, gives you control over a wide array of variables, but the support, at least in English, is severely lacking. For example, there is an acceleration enrichment function with a handful of variables to adjust, but there is no explanation about the specifics of the variables. I don't need someone to tell me how to tune, but there is ambiguity in the very brief (a few words) explanations of the variables. They can work in at least two different ways; I just need to know which. Moreover, the only support I'm aware of anywhere and in any language is a public group on FB. There are two aRacer personnel who monitor it but their knowledge is very limited. There are also videos done by aRacer but they don't cover everything the ECU/software can do.

There is a data logging function; that's good, but it is very limited in its options for parsing data so you need to spend hours going over data that would be better analyzed by a computer.

Street use, ok gotcha. Yes, less stressful than road racing. At your suggestion, I dug into WPC treatment. Very interesting; an improvement on good ole' fashion shotpeening. 

Stay away from titanium valves; from what I've read the service life is terrible. Everyone seems to use stock valves with the CP2. I suspect that bigger valves would just lead to even worse shrouding in the combustion chamber.

Your project is very interesting, do keep us informed!

 

 

[FrodoFZ]

Just now, M. Hausknecht said:

I'm using an aRacer Super 2 ECU and their SpeedTuning software on a laptop. I have decidedly mixed feelings about it. It is reasonably flexible, gives you control over a wide array of variables, but the support, at least in English, is severely lacking. For example, there is an acceleration enrichment function with a handful of variables to adjust, but there is no explanation about the specifics of the variables. I don't need someone to tell me how to tune, but there is ambiguity in the very brief (a few words) explanations of the variables. They can work in at least two different ways; I just need to know which. Moreover, the only support I'm aware of anywhere and in any language is a public group on FB. There are two aRacer personnel who monitor it but their knowledge is very limited. There are also videos done by aRacer but they don't cover everything the ECU/software can do.

There is a data logging function; that's good, but it is very limited in its options for parsing data so you need to spend hours going over data that would be better analyzed by a computer.

Street use, ok gotcha. Yes, less stressful than road racing. At your suggestion, I dug into WPC treatment. Very interesting; an improvement on good ole' fashion shotpeening. 

Stay away from titanium valves; from what I've read the service life is terrible. Everyone seems to use stock valves with the CP2. I suspect that bigger valves would just lead to even worse shrouding in the combustion chamber.

Your project is very interesting, do keep us informed!

 

 

Yeah that lack of support doesn’t give me that warm fuzzy feeling lol. I’m leaning towards FTECU. There software allows for individual cylinder tuning which I’m happy about. I’m sure woolich software does as well, I just haven’t come across anything that confirmed that for me. I gotta do more digging I guess lol.

In regards to Ti valves, I believe there are a lot of common misconceptions. Not at all saying what you’ve read is dis-info, but seeing as Ti is just nowhere near as common as steel/SS, I believe it’s more of a ‘not knowing’ issue when it comes to Ti properties and it being used as valve material. From my understanding as long as they have some sort of surface treatment, proper seat material, and bronze/copper-bronze guides, they work just fine. Albeit they have a higher elongation rate compared to steel(s) I see why on some applications it would be worth your while to monitor exhaust temps if you decided to run them exhaust side. 
So long as those variables are checked off, Ti valves are superior IMO. Lighter means less float, less force to open and close (read: less drag;), over all less stress on the valve train and engine throughout the rev range; and allows for more aggressive cam timing too. You cloud also run a larger Ti valve in place of a smaller steel valve if shrouding wasn’t an issue, and on certain engines you can really get a nice bump in hp when revs get really high. A lot of Yamaha atvs, dirt bikes, and street bikes use titanium valves, among other manufacturers as well. C6 Z06 and ZR1 Corvettes come standard with titanium valves as well. So do a lot of higher end exotic cars.   In other words I don’t believe it’s as scary as people make it out to be, especially for street applications. In the search of HP, less is more, right? 
 

I’m not against trying Ti valves out, if I can gather more usable data on what’s really required to run the Ti valves successfully at my level then I will definitely pull the trigger, but in the mean time I’m gonna stick with what V&H does with their pro series headwork and use the OEM valves, except they will be WPC’d. Along with everything in the head lol.

But thanks man, I appreciate the enthusiasm! This is something I’ve been wanting to do for a while now, it’s just a matter of time now

[FrodoFZ]

51 minutes ago, Randy said:

Man I’ve had my trigger finger poised on that Extreme kit for so long now….I am honestly scared that the hit coming off that thing will high side the shet out me on corner exit lol ! As far as injectors I recently crunched the numbers on those. It seems the stock 250cc injectors will barely be able to handle a 100hp. I know for a fact they couldn’t do the flow rate on E85. So far I have found YZ450F injectors (I think they are 450 cc flow rate) are bolt in but really need something in the 325cc range to be optimal. Gonna wait and see what the dyno and the guys at Livengood say.

Is it possible to have an injector flow TOO much? I didn’t kno YZ injectors could swap over.

Would you put that kit on a street bike or racebike in some sort of ‘unlimited’ class? I love turbo noises but I don’t like extra weight. 
 

I think my all time favorite engine sound is an Chevy LS with a choppy cam and fat turbo. Pure bliss IMO lol

[stickshift]

9 hours ago, Randy said:

Man I’ve had my trigger finger poised on that Extreme kit for so long now….I am honestly scared that the hit coming off that thing will high side the shet out me on corner exit lol ! As far as injectors I recently crunched the numbers on those. It seems the stock 250cc injectors will barely be able to handle a 100hp. I know for a fact they couldn’t do the flow rate on E85. So far I have found YZ450F injectors (I think they are 450 cc flow rate) are bolt in but really need something in the 325cc range to be optimal. Gonna wait and see what the dyno and the guys at Livengood say.

The Extreme Creations turbo kit uses the stock injectors, but with an upgraded fuel pump and rising-rate regulator.

[Randy]

Just now, stickshift said:

The Extreme Creations turbo kit uses the stock injectors, but with an upgraded fuel pump and rising-rate regulator.

So I would like to preface this with I am not an engine builder nor a tuner. I am only regurgitating  what I have been able to research or have been quoted. The BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) for gasoline is approximately .5 lbs per HP per hour. The stock 250cc fuel injector flows 23.8 lbs hour. So for the pair running at 80% (recommended max) you are looking at 38.8 lbs hr. The Extreme kits is claiming a 112 HP which would put its needs at 56 lbs hr. By ditching the stock fuel pump and its regulated 47 PSI and upgrading to a much stronger one and its rising rate regulator, the Extreme kit has been able to complete its mission while using the stock injectors at less than 60 PSI. Now if you switch to E85 which has a BSFC of .7, those numbers go way up. Hence the reason Extreme had to use 650cc injectors out of a Ninja H2 for its 142 HP build on E85. 

[Randy]

3 hours ago, FrodoFZ said:

Is it possible to have an injector flow TOO much? I didn’t kno YZ injectors could swap over.

Would you put that kit on a street bike or racebike in some sort of ‘unlimited’ class? I love turbo noises but I don’t like extra weight. 
 

I think my all time favorite engine sound is an Chevy LS with a choppy cam and fat turbo. Pure bliss IMO lol

As far as flow to much…I don’t know is my short answer lol. The Extreme kit with stock injectors solves the problem with increased pressure but then switch’s to 650cc’s on its higher HP  builds. Common sense would say that same motor still has to idle and perform well at lower RPM’s so…..???

Its my understanding that an injector is an injector. As long as it is the same style, it should be plug and play.

I quit riding on the street so I am strictly on the track. A turbo in my racing organization would put me in a Formula class (if they even allowed it). But with how short the power band is, I think it will be just to much of a hit to fast…

 

[Randy]

12 hours ago, M. Hausknecht said:

A couple thoughts for you guys.

First, the stock injectors very likely won't be sufficient for anything over about 95 HP at the rear wheel with gas. After dyno tuning my recently completed motor at KWS, 92 SAE corrected HP at the rear wheel, I did  two track days to get the on-track tuning done. I saw injector duty cycles reach 88%. To assure an adequate margin of safety, you really don't want to exceed  with gas90%. Since you can't get HP without fuel, you'll need bigger injectors or higher fuel pressure to reach your targets. E85, for sure, bigger injectors.

Second, I'm using fairly mild Web Cams with stock springs and a rev limit of 10,600. I'm not intending to rev it much past 10,000. There is more power to be had with bigger cams and more revs but the wear and tear on the valve train, I'm told by Matt Spicer, is significant. And then there is the crank saddle cracking from running 11,000-12,000 rpm. When Robem was running 07s they tore their motors down every other MA weekend. Yes, big power but do you guys really want to at least have to pull the head after every few hours of running time? I did that with a previous race bike and while it allowed me to win a lot of races, it was a lot of work (new twin coil valve springs and titanium tops every two hours running time). 

Third, I've got a set of standard bore 13:1 CP pistons and Carillo rods for my next build. In discussions with Gregg Spears, he discouraged me from going to 82mm pistons because the cylinder walls end up pretty thin and, again, frequent tear downs are advised to check for cracks. I'm waiting on Web Cams for Spears spec cams, which like the cams I have already, aren't high lift but their duration is longer than my current set. 

Fuel is key for big power. VP MR 12 seems to generate the most power, 2-2.5 HP more than virtually anything else and about  4-5 HP over pump gas, but its scary expensive and highly corrosive (should be drained and flushed after every day of use). I'm using Sunoco 260GT, 100 octane with 9.8% ethanol for added oxygen (3.7%). 260GT Plus is a little higher octane, with a little more  oxygen but 100HP (SAE corrected) seems a lofty goal. I drain my fuel after every day/weekend, to minimize water absorption.

I'm not sure what Millenium means by a "KWS CNC port". KWS has only just started to explore head work on the CP2. When I was there last month, I talked with Mike Godin about what they were doing. He suspects that, like the R6, there is power to be had in closing up the intake ports in the bowl area but they hadn't done it yet and dynoed. 

Web Cams seems to make a bunch of cams for the CP2 but I'm finding specs hard to come by (proprietary info and all that). I'm interested in lift and duration numbers, if you'd care to share. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for all the great info….and for some reason 92 HP seems really nice now lol  

Of course longevity and durability with the greatest HP have been the ultimate goal and thats what I asked for in my cam profile. Here’s a copy of the WEB receipt…how does it compare ?

[M. Hausknecht]

Just now, Randy said:

Thanks for all the great info….and for some reason 92 HP seems really nice now lol  

Of course longevity and durability with the greatest HP have been the ultimate goal and thats what I asked for in my cam profile. Here’s a copy of the WEB receipt…how does it compare ?

Randy, I don't have a receipt from Web Cams. Here is my cam card with lift, duration and timing info. Have you received something like this?

 

[Randy]

Just now, M. Hausknecht said:

Randy, I don't have a receipt from Web Cams. Here is my cam card with lift, duration and timing info. Have you received something like this?

 

I haven’t….should I ask WEB or Millennium for that or is this something the engine builder will come up with ?