twf Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 Since I shipped this motor let me say few words. I am sorry it turned this way. Owner knew nothing about it, he bought motor on eBay for spare and had it shipped direct to me since I do his engine work. He never touched that motor. I am sure he told you it is eBay motor and suppose to be stock. Motor was sitting in my shop for couple years or so. I have never opened it or take anything apart. Still I said there is possibility I took tensioner off but I don't remember it. Even if I did I would not put it back on simply because motor would never been used by us without going through it. It would have been built first so it would come totally apart. Next thing is you paid for motor and next morning somebody was picking it up, there was no time for me to look over it and check every bolt on it. There was nothing obvious or visibly wrong with it so I put it in bin ready to be picked up. Boots were not included with motor, I sent you what I had here, along with tensioner and another boot once we found I sent you 2 right ones by mistake. I was to send it express mail and pay for it but you offered to pay Saturday overnight so we split cost. This was rush as well so I am sorry I grabbed wrong boot. Refund. You got it for good price considering what they ask for this things. Before we knew about head gasket you were refunded $200 to cover timing cams. It takes one hour to time cams so I think refund is fair. After gasket problem you are offered partial refund or return motor with full refund. Again, I am sorry it turned this way but I assure you I did not know about problems, I would never let motor go knowing it has issues. Owner knew even less, he was 400 miles away from motor. I will take all blame for not seen issues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Hausknecht Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 Sorry to read of your troubles, Jeff. In my experience, used motors from unknown sources are crap shoots. Ideally, you have time to at least pull the head, oil sump, and both side covers, just to see if anything is amiss. And still you have to cross your fingers that unseen stuff, like the gearbox, are ok. You didn't have the time. Its a long season, try to keep your head up and keep moving forward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member cornerslider Posted February 3, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted February 3, 2022 8 hours ago, twf said: Since I shipped this motor let me say few words. I am sorry it turned this way. Owner knew nothing about it, he bought motor on eBay for spare and had it shipped direct to me since I do his engine work. He never touched that motor. I am sure he told you it is eBay motor and suppose to be stock. Motor was sitting in my shop for couple years or so. I have never opened it or take anything apart. Still I said there is possibility I took tensioner off but I don't remember it. Even if I did I would not put it back on simply because motor would never been used by us without going through it. It would have been built first so it would come totally apart. Next thing is you paid for motor and next morning somebody was picking it up, there was no time for me to look over it and check every bolt on it. There was nothing obvious or visibly wrong with it so I put it in bin ready to be picked up. Boots were not included with motor, I sent you what I had here, along with tensioner and another boot once we found I sent you 2 right ones by mistake. I was to send it express mail and pay for it but you offered to pay Saturday overnight so we split cost. This was rush as well so I am sorry I grabbed wrong boot. Refund. You got it for good price considering what they ask for this things. Before we knew about head gasket you were refunded $200 to cover timing cams. It takes one hour to time cams so I think refund is fair. After gasket problem you are offered partial refund or return motor with full refund. Again, I am sorry it turned this way but I assure you I did not know about problems, I would never let motor go knowing it has issues. Owner knew even less, he was 400 miles away from motor. I will take all blame for not seen issues. I like hearing both sides of this stuff..... It sounds like nobody is particularly happy with this situation. I'm sure you guys will figure it out. Good luck - ""W.O.T. until you see god, then brake" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, scratchpad said: It's way over the line to call it "story-telling." I've given you the benefit of the doubt the entire way of this process, and I would expect the same respect from you. I, and my mechanic, may be somewhat inexperienced installing and dealing with FZ07 engines, and engines sold as "race stuff" (which apparently has its own set of "caveat emptor" compared to an engine purchase in any other context in the world...), and I'll cop to some of that, but I'm certainly not making anything up and don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm being misleading or dishonest. And I hold that I don't think it's right to get an engine that was obviously taken apart, missing pieces, has loose bolts, semi-changed gaskets, etc., without being notified in advance. Even if it wasn't on purpose, you totally failed in your task of proper notification and diligence in how you presented this sale, and how it was sent out with limited, or perhaps no, inspection or thought. You sold me an engine, and it is missing parts and isn't running, and that's the score. Attached is a screen shot of a text to me that you said it was a "running engine." You sold me a running engine, and it doesn't run. I stand by what I said that we did not notice the missing pieces until the engine was installed. If you have pics that "prove" otherwise, feel free to post. If you look at the ones that I posted showing the missing pieces, they are all of the engine in the bike. Why would I make that up? Just to try to "juice" you for some labor time? We installed the engine when we got it because we assumed it was a good engine that was ready to be installed. You gave me no notice or hazard to assume otherwise ahead of time; or that it was a frankensten abortion that needed to be gone over with a fine tooth comb. Again, perhaps my naivety of assuming that I was actually getting a functioning, ready engine, but you never indicated that I needed to do any of that until after I pointed out the missing parts. And that's a fact. The pictures you saw were after we removed everything and put the block back where it needed to be as it was easier to work on after all, once we took off the gas tank, etc.. We finished doing the valves and other things with the engine mounted, as shown in the pics. Again, you think I'm trying to juice you on the, what, .1/2 hour of labor removing the engine bolts? To me it isn't "clear" that there's a head gasket in the "original" pic. I'm not the best mechanic, but I didn't, and don't see one. Are you implying that I took it out and put the engine back together just to make a fuss? Give me a break. Feel free to post a pic "clearly" showing a head gasket, because I'm not experienced or skilled enough to know what that looks like. I most certainly did not remove a head gasket, or even get close to removing the head. Attached are the original pics that were sent to me of the engine. You, and anyone else reading, can compare those to the pics and videos of it leaking and tell me if it's "clear" that there was once a head gasket and that there now "clearly" isn't, I'd love to hear the case. Because I sure didn't take it out. And who cares if my diagnosis was wrong about the head gasket. The thing is leaking water like a sieve, and it's going to take hours to get back in there and figure out why. At the very least, the bolts weren't tightened. And the Yamaha service manual says that these head bolts need to be new each time, and they seem to be on back, back, back order everywhere. Same with the gaskets. So to do it right, it isn't that easy, or fast, or cheap. And, again, perhaps, I'm inexperienced and didn't think to check for loose head bolts on an engine that I was sold and assumed to be working. But either way, you never told me about that, and even if you didn't know, you should have been more thorough before boxing something up that you apparently know nothing about and re-selling it. No warning whatsoever that the engine was "as is," or "parts engine," or "needs work." Sold as simply a spare engine, when it was presented as a "running engine." Not fair for me to have to spend so many hours figuring it out. So if your rebuttal is that I, "should have known better" than to not check for every single variable on this engine being screwed up, well that's pretty sh*tty, and I wouldn't do that. $300 would maybe be a fair amount to take the head off and check the gasket and replace the bolts, but how about the risk of whatever else has been done with this engine that we discover once we get the head off? So basically, I get a [small] portion of the costs back that I've spent so far, but get zero $ to assume all risk of whatever else is wrong, missing, loose, worn in this engine. You said you had no idea about any of this stuff and don't really know the history of this engine. So why are you so confident that it's such a quick fix? I get f*ck all for assuming all of that risk. I asked for $500 back, instead of $300, which I thought was generous on my part, and you've said no. I thought that was a good deal for you to leave it. Getting a loosened, incomplete, and who knows what else "parts" block mystery box for $1,366 shipped (1,500 purchase price + 300 shipping - (200-66, partial refund #1 net of my overnight costs) - 300 partial refund 2), just doesn't seem right. I sure as hell wouldn't have agreed to that. I think I deserve some downside compensation for taking on the risk of taking on this engine that you say you know nothing about and proves to be a mess. Honestly, would you be satisfied with these circumstances? Yes, I can send it back, but look where I'm at now: totally screwed and without a working engine and way behind schedule. I've already missed one race because of this. If I had known the engine was in this state, I would never have bought it. But now it lies where it lies, and I don't have a reasonable alternative and am kind of out of time. I can spend the time to pull it out, package it up, coordinate sending it back, and order a new one, or I can take my chances here, accept your $300 and roll the dice. It's just a sh*tty spot that I personally wouldn't have put someone else in. At the very least, I'd have given the asked $500. My life is very busy right now, and I just don't know if I can allocate the time to f*ck around with this thing another week or more;l troubleshooting and maybe stressing out ordering additional, unforeseen parts in a hurry. Or maybe even parting it out and starting from scatch on a new engine -- how knows?! I was going to send it back and wait on my superbike engine, but that's now even further behind and may not even be ready for Daytona. Edited February 3, 2022 by jb.junior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 There is head gasket on engine, see under right boot. If head was off it was done before we got it. Like I said, there was no visible problem with engine other than tensioner missing. I wish I had time to look at the engine before sending it to you but I didn't. There is absolutely no reason for me to knowingly send you engine with head not torqued down. Why would I do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 This picture I sent you before motor left shows it clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 Maybe eBay guy started taking parts off to part it out, changed mind or whatever happened one thing I can guaranty is we did not take it apart. Again, I am sorry I did not have time to go over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scratchpad Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 Your text when you got the engine. Note the Engine is not in the frame in this picture. You wrote "Hi. engine looks pretty good. But missing can chain tensioner..." "I stand by what I said that we did not notice the missing pieces until the engine was installed. If you have pics that "prove" otherwise, feel free to post." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scratchpad Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 This is the very next text with the picture you posted to me which was the picture Zoran sent you before shipping. No real need for me to keep posting texts or keep going back and forth on here with this. If it were my intentions to put the screw to you i would not offer to refund and take the engine back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 That was Thursday night. I went straight in to shop, grabbed thermostat, tensioner and boots (my own parts) and dropped in mail first thing in morning. He gets it Saturday. While waiting he installed motor which is no problem since access to cams is easy even with motor in. It is 1 hour job either way. I refund him for 2 hours + his share of overnight shipping. Turns out I grabbed 2 right boots so I sent another boot Monday morning. None of us knew about gasket issue until engine install was complete and water poured in. Hopefully you can understand nobody tried to screw you over. It just turned out motor was not what it was claimed to be to us and to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 (edited) On a brighter note... The body work came in, and it's amazing. I had it sent directly from Trev at Flexiglass to my new painter here in Houston area, Tom Anderson, and didn't even see it before he started painting, so it was a big "reveal" when he brought it the other day. I gave him some loose ideas about design and color scheme, and he absolutely knocked it out of the park. I just love it. He even brought it over and helped us install it. The install went great, and everything fits up, with only a few minor modifications. We did cut a bit of the right side lower off to make room for the exhaust, and a little from a few other places. And we need to make two brackets for the lower aft attachment points. The number plates also came in from Chris at Drippin' Wet, and they too are awesome. I'm working on the other decals now (team; class sponsors; sponsors; Dunlop; etc.). Too bad for the engine problems, because we/I really hustled and had some over-performance and good luck from other vendors. Aside from, well, having no propulsion, lol, we're nearly finished. Need to finalize the battery tray set up, relocate the front brake reservoir (it doesn't clear the body work as it sits now), modify the fairing stay gauge bracket (also doesn't clear), and maybe a few minor things. Prettiest non-running bike in the class! Ha. Been crazy busy with work / life this week. Need to decide what to do about engine this weekend... Edited February 4, 2022 by jb.junior 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Evill_Ed Posted February 4, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted February 4, 2022 That looks really good. I told ya Trev's galss was really nice. Glad to hear it fit up well. Hoping to fit mine this weekend. Ed "Do not let this bad example influence you, follow only what is good" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Evill_Ed said: That looks really good. I told ya Trev's galss was really nice. Glad to hear it fit up well. Hoping to fit mine this weekend. Ed Damn right. And it's sleeker, and, to me, cooler and more aggressive looking. Can't wait to see yours. Painter assumed that it was heavier than the Sharkskinz, because it for sure feels more stout, but I weighed it and compared it to the parts that I had left of the Sharkskinz, and it's about the same. (This is an extrapolation, as all that I have left of the SS kit are the tank cover, tail and front fender; which were actually .2 lbs. lighter than the FG. Perhaps the SS upper + lower are not scaled proportionately to the pieces that I weighed, but assuming they are, the bodies are about the same weight.) If anyone has an AP/ Sharkskiz upper [with windscreen] and lower that they want to weigh, it would be interesting to see the comparison. All parts were painted and include D-zus fasteners and a foam seat and the number plates. And the tank covers both have stomp grip pads. Also: I believe that my old SK bodywork was the first gen Skarkskinz and/or the AP work. Flexiglass. Upper:4.9 lbs. Fender: 1.0 lbs. Tail: 4.0 lbs. Tank cover: 2.5 lbs. Lower: 3.6 lbs. Total: 16.0 lbs. AP / SS: Upper: ? lbs. Fender: 1.1 lbs. Tail: 4.0 lbs. Tank cover: 2.7 lbs. Lower: ? lbs. Total: ? lbs. Difference so far: Flexiglass is .2 lbs lighter. Edited February 5, 2022 by jb.junior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Evill_Ed Posted February 4, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted February 4, 2022 Funny, I thought it felt heavier too, especially the upper fairing. I really like the fit up of the upper and lower flanges. Just received my Camloc fasteners today. The Flexi-Glass is a sleeker looking design than the other FZ07R kits. The front is especially sharper and sportier looking. The ZX-10 windscreen is smaller and cooler looking too. "Do not let this bad example influence you, follow only what is good" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, Evill_Ed said: Funny, I thought it felt heavier too, especially the upper fairing. I really like the fit up of the upper and lower flanges. Just received my Camloc fasteners today. The Flexi-Glass is a sleeker looking design than the other FZ07R kits. The front is especially sharper and sportier looking. The ZX-10 windscreen is smaller and cooler looking too. Totally agree. What are camloc fasteners? Like, those brass lever "camlocs" that put two pieces of fire hose together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Evill_Ed Posted February 4, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted February 4, 2022 They are really cool Aircraft Style Fasteners. "Do not let this bad example influence you, follow only what is good" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Evill_Ed said: They are really cool Aircraft Style Fasteners. Does it allow the bike to fly? Edited February 4, 2022 by jb.junior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Evill_Ed Posted February 4, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted February 4, 2022 9 minutes ago, jb.junior said: Does it allow the bike to fly? One can only Hope "Do not let this bad example influence you, follow only what is good" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, twf said: That was Thursday night. I went straight in to shop, grabbed thermostat, tensioner and boots (my own parts) and dropped in mail first thing in morning. He gets it Saturday. While waiting he installed motor which is no problem since access to cams is easy even with motor in. It is 1 hour job either way. I refund him for 2 hours + his share of overnight shipping. Turns out I grabbed 2 right boots so I sent another boot Monday morning. None of us knew about gasket issue until engine install was complete and water poured in. Hopefully you can understand nobody tried to screw you over. It just turned out motor was not what it was claimed to be to us and to you. So I’m basically on the hook for y’all’s lack of due diligence in your own transaction and lack of inspections and management of your inventory. This is quintessential “passing the buck.” I think my ask of an additional $500 refund is more than fair. I’m not sure how to quantify my lost productivity and inability to Race, but that’s what really screwed me over here. And I’m getting dick for that. seller gets to walk and not have to deal with paying for shipping return or starting from scratch where we would leave things off. Yes, in theory just replacing the head gasket wouldn’t be that much time, necessarily. But, as you say, as you don’t know what the state of the engine was, we need to go over it and look at all components. How much time and labor will that be? What other parts will we need. I’m not being unreasonable. I was told That I was buying a working engine for $1500 bucks. With an additional $500 refund, I’m at least close to even with that and getting a minor amount of downside protection in the case that something else is wrong. Edited February 5, 2022 by jb.junior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, jb.junior said: So I’m basically being on the hook for y’all’s lack of due diligence in your own transaction and lack of inspections and management of your inventory. This is quintessential “passing the buck.” Sometime that is how it turns out, it is used part. When that motor showed up here I looked around it to see if everything seems to be good. Mainly because it came from eBay and most like from crashed bike I was looking for something broken, cracked. All looked good so I parked motor. Like I said it would have been torn apart if we were to use it but we never needed it. You asked me for pictures I sent it, from every angle. There is absolutely nothing visibly wrong with it except missing tensioner. You even asked me if clutch was in there. I told you I don't know and that I never opened motor, it came from eBay and this is what it looks like. Apparently owner was told by eBay guy it is running motor. We never verified this because like I said, looked good and was parked and sitting in case we need it. You got $200 from me and owner was to send you another $300. That is $500. Enough to fix this issues. Yes, there is possibility for more issues but that is risk we all take when buying used stuff from eBay. At some point if you ask too much we rather have motor back and you have that option. But that part is not me, that is between you and owner. I am just telling you it was not done on purpose and I did not have time to look at motor, it shipped next morning. I don't know what else I could have done other than going back in time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member cornerslider Posted February 5, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted February 5, 2022 When you buy a used motor, it can be difficult. You can spend more on a "guaranteed" motor from a proven seller (with reviews) on eBay. Those are upwards of $2K+ these days..... It's a very sad situation. I don't think any of the (3) parties involved, had any bad intentions (based on what I've read). It seems to me like the "owner" & engine builder tried to accommodate. I have many bike parts in my garage (many for several years), and I know I can't keep track of the condition everything is in? We all have had bad experiences with buying used stuff. It's a shame this has to be on a public forum - 1 ""W.O.T. until you see god, then brake" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 It is actually good to be on public forum. Give you idea what you may have to deal with when buying used stuff. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Cornerslider, it is ok. It shows that sometime deals don't go as planned and is lesson for future. This things happen and imo there is nothing wrong with it been exposed, it may help others. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, cornerslider said: When you buy a used motor, it can be difficult. You can spend more on a "guaranteed" motor from a proven seller (with reviews) on eBay. Those are upwards of $2K+ these days..... It's a very sad situation. I don't think any of the (3) parties involved, had any bad intentions (based on what I've read). It seems to me like the "owner" & engine builder tried to accommodate. I have many bike parts in my garage (many for several years), and I know I can't keep track of the condition everything is in? We all have had bad experiences with buying used stuff. It's a shame this has to be on a public forum - I disagree, at least in part. One is indeed always responsible for whatever they sell -- always. However long one had it, and whatever condition one got it in. That's what consumer protection laws say, and that's what a civil court would enforce. If I were a different person, and this were a different venue, and I wanted to push the envelope, it would be within my scope to push to be "made whole" on this. I.e., get not only a full refund ($1,500), but get refunded for the shipping ($300), the time that I've spent working on it so far & and the time to get it back together and prepped and arranged to send back ($200-300); so $2,000 - $2,100. I'm being offered either $1,500 to return it, or $1,000 to keep it. I'm out $500-600 if I send it back, and perhaps a lot more, if I decide to keep it. All I've asked for was an additional $200 back on top of the offered $300. So, again, I think I'm being very reasonable in my request; which the seller has initially declined. It was supposed to be one of those "guaranteed" motors from a proven seller. That's exactly how it was presented to me -- seller promised videos of it running. I repeat -- again -- it is simply unacceptable, by statute, civil decree, and general ethics, to simply say, "well, that's how I got it -- deal with it." Again, I would never do this to someone. So if there's any "lessons" here, I hope that one is that people should feel confident in dealing with me getting a fair deal in secondary market transactions, and should exhibit caution in dealing with this seller. And it's not even relevant, but once you factor in eBay fees, and free shipping costs (which I had to pay), the price paid for this engine is indeed comparable to a guaranteed running one on eBay. I chose to buy this one from a fellow racer because I thought it there was an increased sense of protection and security and that it would be good and safe to "keep it in the community," but apparently, it's the opposite. Edited February 5, 2022 by jb.junior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member fzar Posted February 5, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted February 5, 2022 21 hours ago, jb.junior said: All parts were painted and include D-zus fasteners and a foam seat and the number plates. And the tank covers both have stomp grip pads. From flexi-glass? I want to know about the seat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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