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foochi

premature shifting

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foochi

Can up-shifting be harder/incomplete if I shift before the clutch is fully disengaged?

From 2nd to 3rd gear sometimes it'll shift just fine, but other times I'll up-shift it feels like the pedal hits a wall and I'm still in 2nd gear, causing me to release the clutch lever, and try it a second time.

I'm not sure if I'm just trying to shift before I fully disengage the clutch or if there's a bigger problem on my hands?

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Triple Jim

If you haven't released the clutch and the engine is still driving the motorcycle forward, it will be very difficult to get out of the gear you're in.  It sounds like you're not only not fully disengaging the clutch, but you're also still applying throttle or you let off the throttle so much it loaded the transmission the other way. 

Edited by Triple Jim

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seven

@foochi What you are describing sounds to me like you are not fully releasing the shifter. I found that if I would grab the next higher gear I was still holding a bit of pressure on the shifter and when I went to grab the next gear I couldn't. I started doing an exaggerated point my toe down after each shift to reprogram my brain and make sure I am releasing all pressure from the shifter (you could of course move your foot off to the side or back, just get your foot to have no contact with the shifter). Ever since, I have not had the problem.

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foochi
2 hours ago, Triple Jim said:

If you haven't released the clutch and the engine is still driving the motorcycle forward, it will be very difficult to get out of the gear you're in.  It sounds like you're not only not fully disengaging the clutch, but you're also still applying throttle or you let off the throttle so much it loaded the transmission the other way. 

I have a suspicion that I'm pulling in the clutch faster than I'm letting off the throttle.

I'm having a hard to wrapping my head around letting off the throttle so much that it loads the transmission the other way.

49 minutes ago, seven said:

@foochi What you are describing sounds to me like you are not fully releasing the shifter. I found that if I would grab the next higher gear I was still holding a bit of pressure on the shifter and when I went to grab the next gear I couldn't. I started doing an exaggerated point my toe down after each shift to reprogram my brain and make sure I am releasing all pressure from the shifter (you could of course move your foot off to the side or back, just get your foot to have no contact with the shifter). Ever since, I have not had the problem.

I'll try this on the way home from work.

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Triple Jim
34 minutes ago, foochi said:

I'm having a hard to wrapping my head around letting off the throttle so much that it loads the transmission the other way.

If you're riding and let off the throttle fully, you get "engine braking".  This is when the engine is being driven by the motorcycle transmission.  That's what I mean by the transmission being loaded "the other way"... rather than the engine sending power the normal way through the transmission, the rear wheel is sending power the other way back through the transmission to the engine, and the engine's resistance to being turned is slowing the motorcycle down

Edited by Triple Jim

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foochi
1 hour ago, Triple Jim said:

If you're riding and let off the throttle fully, you get "engine braking".  This is when the engine is being driven by the motorcycle transmission.  That's what I mean by the transmission being loaded "the other way"... rather than the engine sending power the normal way through the transmission, the rear wheel is sending power the other way back through the transmission to the engine, and the engine's resistance to being turned is slowing the motorcycle down

I see. Now I'm questioning my ability to even shift correctly.

I was taught to simultaneously pull in the clutch lever, release the throttle completely and then up shift, the reverse the first 2 steps. Is that not correct?

Or I might be looking at it the wrong way...

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Triple Jim

I was talking about releasing the throttle completely but not getting the clutch fully disengaged.  Your procedure is OK.  You just need to practice the timing of things.

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Yakko Warner

Preloading the shifter before I disengage the clutch made shifter much easier and smoother for me; I don't have to time the lever pull with the shift.  There are many YouTube videos about it, but I think this is the one where I learned about it:

 

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seven
2 hours ago, Yakko Warner said:

Preloading the shifter before I disengage the clutch made shifter much easier and smoother for me; I don't have to time the lever pull with the shift.  There are many YouTube videos about it, but I think this is the one where I learned about it:

On the track I put a little pressure on the shifter and when I want the next gear I just quickly close (not fully) and open the throttle (like a reverse blip) and it grabs the gear. Make powering down the front straight so much better. I have no idea what the implications are for the transmission/clutch/drivetrain though.

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foochi
14 hours ago, Yakko Warner said:

Preloading the shifter before I disengage the clutch made shifter much easier and smoother for me; I don't have to time the lever pull with the shift.  There are many YouTube videos about it, but I think this is the one where I learned about it:

 

I was taught this was the normal way to shift but it's cool to see it's effectiveness.

I paid close attention on my way home regarding pulling clutch in completely and releasing throttle before shifting. The problem still exist. Unless my clutch cable isn't set correctly.

Could chain tension be a factor? I probably should've mentioned this but this all started after I cleaned, lubed and adjusted proper chain tension. I say proper tension because I had never done it or touched it before but I decided to check it as I was curious. The last person to actually adjust it was when I had new tires installed. When I finally checked tension, it seemed tight and after measuring using the factor numbers; it was too tight.

I placed the correct tension, went for a test drive, I was having this problem from gears 2-6. Turned around, tightened it up a bit (out of spec) and now it's just from gears 2-3. I think I just figured out half my problem just by typing it out and processing it. But now I'm wondering since the tension is out of spec, could it mean my chain has stretched out and might need replacing?

 

 

 

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Triple Jim

Adjust your chain to spec.  You can check to see if it's worn out by the usual methods.  I don't believe that chain tension is the cause of your shifting problem unless it's way too tight and binding.  With the motorcycle sitting on its side stand there should be 2 to 2.2" between the top of the chain and the chain guide on the bottom of the swing arm, when you push down on the chain at that spot. 

I cut a block of wood that's nearly rectangular, that's 2" wide at one end and 2.2" wide at the other (slightly wedge shaped)  If it the 2" end fits in, but it won't go all the way through, the chain is adjusted correctly.

 

Edited by Triple Jim

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ElGonzales

I have heard about shifting issues after somebody increased/decreased the chain tension. 2-3 times. But I can't imagine an mechanical explanation for this (until now) and never made this experience by myself while riding the bike with loose or tight chain.    
You haven't adjusted the shifting lever?  The lever mechanic also have to be very smooth moving and well greased, moving back from upper or lower position to the center immediately.

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foochi
22 minutes ago, Triple Jim said:

Adjust your chain to spec.  You can check to see if it's worn out by the usual methods.  I don't believe that chain tension is the cause of your shifting problem unless it's way too tight and binding.  With the motorcycle sitting on its side stand there should be 2 to 2.2" between the top of the chain and the chain guide on the bottom of the swing arm, when you push down on the chain at that spot. 

I cut a block of wood that's nearly rectangular, that's 2" wide at one end and 2.2" wide at the other (slightly wedge shaped)  If it the 2" end fits in, but it won't go all the way through, the chain is adjusted correctly.

 

I'll make sure to do that. I had been setting chain tension while on a rear stand with the whole rear off the ground.

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foochi
3 minutes ago, ElGonzales said:

I have heard about shifting issues after somebody increased/decreased the chain tension. 2-3 times. But I can't imagine an mechanical explanation for this (until now) and never made this experience by myself while riding the bike with loose or tight chain.    
You haven't adjusted the shifting lever?  The lever mechanic also have to be very smooth moving and well greased, moving back from upper or lower position to the center immediately.

I installed woodcraft rear sets but never had this problem until I touched the chain recently.

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Triple Jim
18 minutes ago, foochi said:

I had been setting chain tension while on a rear stand with the whole rear off the ground.

It shouldn't matter.  When my MT is on its side stand the rear suspension is topped out.

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foochi
4 minutes ago, Triple Jim said:

It shouldn't matter.  When my MT is on its side stand the rear suspension is topped out.

Thank you. I'll apply these and will check back.

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shinyribs

You could hold the throttle wide open while shifting and the bike will shift smooth as long as the clutch has completely let go. If you chop the throttle shut worry the clutch still engaged the bike is gonna buck 

Just take your time shifting. Be deliberate with your actions and see if EVEE acts up again, or only when you're shifting fast or not really paying attention.

 

Been riding motorcycle 28 years and I still bomb shifts occasionally. It's gonna happen.  It's just part of the game 😁

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7fold
2 hours ago, shinyribs said:

Been riding motorcycle 28 years and I still bomb shifts occasionally. It's gonna happen.  It's just part of the game 😁

Well that makes me feel better, at least. I occasionally miss 2nd gear, end up in neutral and it drives me nuts haha.

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shinyribs

It's a balance between being using authority on the shifter and just banging on the bike. Luckily, bike transmissions are notoriously durable, so an oops here and there isn't the end of the world. Every bigger is different, every issue of boots is different. If you find yourself often having trouble lifting the lever up past neutral to find second gear you might want to consider adjusting your shift lever to sit lower. Mine was really high when new and I had to adjust it down. 

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klx678
On 9/16/2021 at 9:05 PM, seven said:

On the track I put a little pressure on the shifter and when I want the next gear I just quickly close (not fully) and open the throttle (like a reverse blip) and it grabs the gear. Make powering down the front straight so much better. I have no idea what the implications are for the transmission/clutch/drivetrain though.

Just a warning.  A local racer, who ran WERA and some AMA supersport classes, did this, holding pressure way too long, way to heavy, and way too often causing the shifter forks to burn up and even bend a bit.  Too much pressure scrubs the oil between the fork and the channel on the gear then friction takes over.  Brief pressure works, anticipating and preloading too soon can cause problems.     

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PMT-07

I noticed on mine sometimes if I have to much pressure on the shifter I need to take my foot off and it will go in smooth. I was previously keeping my foot during shifts under the shifter I believe that the shifter needs to go back into position first before you can upshift. I could be wrong though. 

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timjh

Um, I was taught to ignore the clutch on upshifts.  Light pressure on the shift lever, and a slight feather of the throttle will take pressure off the dogs so the shift just happens.  I do declutch and blip for downshifts, but am not certain that's necessary.  Riding around with constant pressure on the lever will result in surprise shifts when you change throttle position.

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ElGonzales

Riding around with constant pressure on the lever will result in overheated worn out shifting forks and then you buy a used motor @ ebay :D

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Triple Jim
1 hour ago, timjh said:

Um, I was taught to ignore the clutch on upshifts.  Light pressure on the shift lever, and a slight feather of the throttle will take pressure off the dogs so the shift just happens.  I do declutch and blip for downshifts, but am not certain that's necessary.

A problem with that when the transmission dogs are not undercut is that if you don't quite get them fully engaged when you open the throttle, there can be load on that fork for a prolonged time.  If the dogs are undercut they tend to pull themselves into full engagement and unload the fork.

To upshift, I like to let off the throttle, pull in the clutch lever, shift, and hold the shift lever long enough to get the clutch engaged.  That ensures that the dogs are fully engaged.

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C.Overly
On 9/16/2021 at 3:49 PM, seven said:

@foochi What you are describing sounds to me like you are not fully releasing the shifter. I found that if I would grab the next higher gear I was still holding a bit of pressure on the shifter and when I went to grab the next gear I couldn't. I started doing an exaggerated point my toe down after each shift to reprogram my brain and make sure I am releasing all pressure from the shifter (you could of course move your foot off to the side or back, just get your foot to have no contact with the shifter). Ever since, I have not had the problem.

I complete agree with this diagnosis. When i first got my MT07, the shifter placement was rather low. I have some big shoes and it was difficult to fully release the shifter between shifts. If the shifter wasnt fully released between shifts, it would act exactly as you described.  I have since adjust the shifter placement to a much high position and basically eliminated the issue. Exaggerated toe pointing does help to build that muscle memory of making sure the shifter is released.

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