New tires feel weird

[Loch]

10 minutes ago, shinyribs said:

You got 22,500 km on your stock tires? Has to convert that to something I could reference...13,700 miles! 

Not meant to sound insulting or like I'm saying you don't ride hard enough, but you're obviously easy on tires.

 

 

I don't feel like I'm particularly easy on tires, but I definitely rode them way too long. The majority of my riding was commuting in a straight line at steady speed, not a lot of acceleration or braking so that would contribute to their life

[Loch]

I'm going to order a new tire tomorrow, haven't decided which one yet but I will definitely be going with stock sizing. Might do front and rear Q3+ just to eliminate variables, maybe it's just not a tire profile that I like. I guess I'll find out and hope we learn something from this haha

[klx678]

On 3/14/2021 at 7:02 PM, cornerslider said:

After reading the original post a second time, and reading the replies, I'd like to revise my earlier reply.... The "mismatched" tires are likely NOT your problem. Racers run different tires front and rear all the time, different compounds, and sometimes even different manufacturers on the front and rear. They rarely deviate the size of the tire though. I believe your real problem is deviating from the OEM rear tire size. You changed the rear width by 10mm, and the aspect ratio by 5mm. That doesn't sound like much, but I can assure that is HUGE, especially when you consider how small the contact patch with the asphalt is on any motorcycle tire. 

A couple years ago, I accidentally ordered the wrong size Q3+ for my front. I ordered a 120/60, rather than the correct 120/70. Since it was my mistake, and I didn't want to pay the return shipping. I kept it, I figured "how much different could it be"? Well, let me tell you my next track day was terrifying!!! I removed that tire, and sold it to a guy that drag races a Hyabussa (doesn't need to turn/corner). I re-ordered the correct 120/70 Q3+ front tire, and all was right with the world again.

You mentioned you ordered a K-Tech shock, and were planning on doing some track days. The Q3+ is great tire for the street, as well as cross training into track days. I rode on them for 3 seasons. Eventually I got fast enough to overheat them, and "graduated" to Michelin DOT "race-rubber". My point being, if you are doing ANY track days, get the right size tire, and get something that will work well for it. My personal opinion is the Q3+ is the best bang-for-the-buck tire for street & track. My Michelins are much more expensive, and don't last as long as the Q3+.... Saving money on tires is like like getting a good deal on a tattoo- "Can you live with it?"

I went from a 110/80 to a 110/70-17 on the front of my Zephyr 550, knowing full well what it would do - quicken turn in and make the bike more sensitive to steering input.  I also had the forks raised about 12mm in the triple clamps and the rear raised about an inch (rotate the axle eccentrics in the direction to raise, not lower).  Some might not like the nervousness of the setup, but I preferred it.

I've also done smaller tire sizes on a Gold Wing to quicken the steering there too.  Went to a 130/90 from a 140/80 on the rear and from a 120/80 to a 110/90.   Did the job.  

Right now with the Pirelli  Phantom on the XSR700 it takes some effort to turn in, even with the forks raised 12mm in the triple clamps.   I can live with it, but not after I change tires.  My brother's FJ-09 falls in extremely easy, running Avon AV53/54, after having such good experience with the Distanzias, he occasionally hits dirt roads, thus the coarse tread.  I have to believe it is partly the Pirelli Phantoms making the difference.  Kinda looking to change to something different, maybe the Bridgestone Adventurecross AX41S, just because.   Because I want to know what they're like.   Probably drop from a 180 to a 170 in the rear.  I think it should quicken handling, but not positive of that.  I do know a rider went from a 190 to a 200 on his 2003 R1, definitely felt the slowdown in cornering.

 

[Loch]

2 minutes ago, klx678 said:

Probably drop from a 180 to a 170 in the rear.  I think it should quicken handling, but not positive of that.

 

This is precisely the opposite of what happened to me. I went from OEM Michelin Road 3 stock sizing, to Q3+ front stock size, and RoadSmart 3 rear 170/60, handling got waaaay more sluggish.

 I'm putting on a rear Q3+ stock size this week to see if it sharpens up the handling, if it doesn't fix my issue then I will probably sell the Q3's and go back to Road 5's or something

[FZ not MT]

On 3/13/2021 at 7:51 PM, Loch said:

They definitely ride smoother, but the steering is way heavier. It feels stable while leaned over, but it is much harder to initiate the lean, much heavier to bring it back up.

That is exactly what I felt with my Michelin PR4 tires. I just assumed that was the way they rode until one day I added 3lbs per tire from what I had been running. Instantly the bike handled much quicker, but yet still had a smooth ride. If I were you, I would add 4lbs, and check your pressure every ride. Take at least two  10-20 mile rides before changing pressure. Then drop it 2 lbs and ride some more. The trick is, of course, finding that happy spot between quick handling and smooth riding. Like one of the posters said, it's free for this experiment. I couldn't believe the difference it made with my tires.

[Loch]

Update!

Got a Q3+ rear in stock sizing, and damn what a difference! Tips in so much easier than the 170, with none of the stability lost. Where the narrower rear tire felt sluggish and hesitant to lean over or stand back up, counter steering is now light as a breeze and extremely intuitive. The Dunlops are still less tippy than the Michelin's, but in a good way.. Very predictable, very consistent from edge to center to edge.

Anyone who finds this thread in the future, don't make my mistake, stick with OEM sizing!!! I guess there are more expensive lessons to learn, so I won't complain too much about this one

Can't wait to install my K-Tech shock and DDC's and ride safely and responsibly down some winding country lanes

 

Thanks for all the feedback everyone who tossed in their $.02, was a big help and made this learning experience a bit easier to swallow

[klx678]

On 3/16/2021 at 6:17 PM, FZ not MT said:

That is exactly what I felt with my Michelin PR4 tires. I just assumed that was the way they rode until one day I added 3lbs per tire from what I had been running. Instantly the bike handled much quicker, but yet still had a smooth ride. If I were you, I would add 4lbs, and check your pressure every ride. Take at least two  10-20 mile rides before changing pressure. Then drop it 2 lbs and ride some more. The trick is, of course, finding that happy spot between quick handling and smooth riding. Like one of the posters said, it's free for this experiment. I couldn't believe the difference it made with my tires.

I found the same thing when I didn't check air before riding.  Bike turned like a truck.  I kind of knew what was wrong, having dealt with a lot of underinflated tires when selling bikes.  You could even feel it when pushing bikes if they were several pounds under.  Mine were around 25 psi.  Aired up to 33 psi and all was peachy. 

We'd have a Gold Wing rider complain about handling or the mechanic would go to ride the bike in the shop and it felt like the bike weighed a ton.  Tire check and there was 10 psi in the tire.   I guess it is more fun to polish chrome than check tires.

[cornerslider]

8 hours ago, Loch said:

Update!

Got a Q3+ rear in stock sizing, and damn what a difference! Tips in so much easier than the 170, with none of the stability lost. Where the narrower rear tire felt sluggish and hesitant to lean over or stand back up, counter steering is now light as a breeze and extremely intuitive. The Dunlops are still less tippy than the Michelin's, but in a good way.. Very predictable, very consistent from edge to center to edge.

Anyone who finds this thread in the future, don't make my mistake, stick with OEM sizing!!! I guess there are more expensive lessons to learn, so I won't complain too much about this one

Can't wait to install my K-Tech shock and DDC's and ride safely and responsibly down some winding country lanes

 

Thanks for all the feedback everyone who tossed in their $.02, was a big help and made this learning experience a bit easier to swallow

I'm glad to help, and glad you are happy with the Q3+ 

[Loch]

Back to the topic of handling..

After putting a few hundred clicks on the q3+, they're feeling better and better but still sluggish compared to the road 3's. I've got the k-tech razor lite installed finally with a correct spring for my weight, dialed in my sag and I can't believe the difference it has made in overall ride feel. 

If I'm looking to sharpen up the steering, should I raise the rear by lengthening the shock, raise the forks in the triple clamps, or a combination of both? 

 

Edit: while reading about this, it finally has occurred to me that while I had previously cut down my preload spacers with the stock fork internals, I installed DDC's on the same spacers effectively adding +12mm preload to what I had before and raising the front up.. Could this be the sluggishness that I'm feeling?

Edited May 17, 2021 by Loch

[stickshift]

1 hour ago, Loch said:

If I'm looking to sharpen up the steering, should I raise the rear by lengthening the shock, raise the forks in the triple clamps, or a combination of both?

 

Edit: while reading about this, it finally has occurred to me that while I had previously cut down my preload spacers with the stock fork internals, I installed DDC's on the same spacers effectively adding +12mm preload to what I had before and raising the front up.. Could this be the sluggishness that I'm feeling?

You should start by increasing the length of the shock. Length of the standard shock (bolt center to center) is 310 mm. I would add an extra 5mm and see how that feels. If you raise the forks through the yoke you reduce cornering clearance.

When you fit the DDCs you need to shorten the spacer by the same amount (10mm from memory, but you might be right). You won't have enough sag in the front, it certainly wouldn't be helping turn in. You can cut the standard spacer with a hacksaw (file the edges afterwards to remove swarf).

Edit: reduce your front sag first and see how it feels. Always one change at a time so you can learn how it affects the handling!

Edited May 17, 2021 by stickshift

[Loch]

1 minute ago, stickshift said:

When you fit the DDCs you need to shorten the spacer by the same amount (10mm from memory, but you might be right

Like I said, I previously shortened them by 10 or 15mm after watching the famous Dave Moss video.. So when I installed the DDC's, it ate up that amount and brought it back to basically stock preload.

I tried to measure front sag with a friend, but the fork friction was giving me a different reading every time even after trying to account for that by lifting the forks and letting them settle, and compressing to let them rise. The midpoint of those two measurements was showing about 30mm sag on the front, after the DDC install. Assuming this is a good sag number, I'd want to raise the forks in the triple clamps?

If raising the shock gets the same effect as lowering the front, I'll definitely start with that. I didn't think of the ground clearance issue on the already low foot pegs. Thanks!

[seven]

I have re-read this thread and a few others on tires and I have a few more questions.

Are there any hypersport tires (Dunlop Q3+, Bridgestone S22, Pirelli Rosso Corsa 2, Michelin Power GP, etc.) that offer the same or better grip in both cool temps (5-10 degrees Celsius) and in the wet, compared to a sport touring tire (Pilot Road 5, Battlax T32, etc.)? 

TL;DR

As I am new to motorcycling and I have only ever ridden my MT-07 and only on the Pilot Road 4's I have no basis for comparison. I find that it is fairly easy to engage ABS with the rear tire, especially on cooler mornings and I do not know if that is just normal for motorcycles in general (not a lot of weight on the rear tire under braking) or a characteristic of the tire.

On my very first track day, the PR4 held up fine, admittedly I was not pushing all that hard. The bike was a little bit squirrelly or unstable feeling at times but being a novice at everything motorcycles I can't tell if it was the gusty winds, the rough track, the stock suspension, the tires, etc. I suspect it was a combination of all of these factors of course but how much might have been down to the tires? 

I am considering options for a tire upgrade and ultimately I am wondering what I would give up or gain on both the street and track if I were to go to something like a hypersport tire versus another sport touring tire.

In the car world I would put really sticky summer only tires on my car (Bridgestone RE-71R) and even in the wet they would out perform other less performance  focussed tires. In this case even though the tire has minimal grooves, the compound was far superior. This is also on wet pavement and not through standing water.

Other than the much shorter tread life with a hypersport tire compared to a sport touring tire, if I would also be giving up cool weather traction and wet weather traction in regular city driving and if so, to what degree.

Just looking for pros and cons.

Edited July 30, 2021 by seven

[stickshift]

11 hours ago, seven said:

Just looking for pros and cons.

The PR4 is a great tyre for mixed road riding conditions (particularly cool & wet weather), but isn't intended for track riding at the pace of the fast group and above. 

Since they wasn't limiting your fun at the track and are well suited to all road conditions, I would stick with them for now. 

The S22 would be a logical step up for more 'sports' oriented riding. It provides better hot grip (track), less cold & wet weather grip than the PR4 but still perfectly acceptable for most road riding conditions. I use them on road & track (medium-fast group).

My 07 doesn't have ABS, but from what I read it's fairly crude and the rear will easily be activated, regardless of tyre model.

[shinyribs]

Haven't had a S22, but have worn out two sets of S21 with my 07. I was getting around 3000 out of the rears. I got 4000 out of the stock Bridgestones. 

Im running a S21 front with a Pilot Power rear at the moment. I see no downsides with the Pilot Power. The S21's and Pilot Powers, front or rear, feel and do really well for me. The Road 5 rear would slide on me some ( same amount as a Shinko Raven) and only lasted about 5000 iirc. The extra "durability" wasn't worth it IMO. Especially considering that was a $220 tire vs a $150 tire. 

I feel like you get the same tire life for your money with a Pilot Power or S21 compared to the Pilot Road tires, and I got more grip also. I don't often ride in heavy rain, but when I do there was no problems with any of the tires. I've drug pegs with S21's while it was raining.

 

[Julian]

On 7/30/2021 at 3:58 PM, seven said:

I am new to motorcycling and I have only ever ridden my MT-07 and only on the Pilot Road 4's I have no basis for comparison. I find that it is fairly easy to engage ABS with the rear tire, especially on cooler mornings and I do not know if that is just normal for motorcycles in general (not a lot of weight on the rear tire under braking) or a characteristic of the tire.

Why are you even using the rear brake? Rear brake has very limited usage - at a red light, during slow speed manoevers, to initiate braking if you need to shed a lot of speed and that's about it. 

If your ABS is engaging frequently it sounds to me that you are using the rear brake in situations where you shouldn't be using it. I can ride for hours without ever touching the rear brake. 

[seven]

3 hours ago, Julian said:

Why are you even using the rear brake? Rear brake has very limited usage - at a red light, during slow speed manoevers, to initiate braking if you need to shed a lot of speed and that's about it. 

If your ABS is engaging frequently it sounds to me that you are using the rear brake in situations where you shouldn't be using it. I can ride for hours without ever touching the rear brake. 

I try to use both my front and rear brakes simultaneously.  However I am not all that great at downshifting while braking with the front brake and blipping the trottle to match revs. So that means I use my rear brake during the whole stopping phase and my front as much as I can...hope that makes sense.

Usually when the rear abs triggers it is often right at the end as I am about to come to a stop. It makes me think there is a little sand on the ground or something. 

[Julian]

"Forget it exists" - is what my driving instructor had to say about the rear brake. A number of reputable safety videos I have seen on YouTube also suggest that the rear brake should be 1-2 % of the total. I think you should practice using the front brake smoothly in any situation. 

I always thought blipping the throttle is more of a show. It's definitely not necessary. If you ease the clutch smoothly while accelerating at the same time you get to the same result, a smooth transition. The braking happens before all that. You brake until you reach the speed that you want, then downshift. You don't need to complicate your life doing everything at the same time

Going downhill on a steep incline is another situation when you might need to use the rear brake. But not when coming to a stop on flat. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Julian

[seven]

7 hours ago, Julian said:

"Forget it exists" - is what my driving instructor had to say about the rear brake. A number of reputable safety videos I have seen on YouTube also suggest that the rear brake should be 1-2 % of the total. I think you should practice using the front brake smoothly in any situation. 

I always thought blipping the throttle is more of a show. It's definitely not necessary. If you ease the clutch smoothly while accelerating at the same time you get to the same result, a smooth transition. The braking happens before all that. You brake until you reach the speed that you want, then downshift. You don't need to complicate your life doing everything at the same time

Going downhill on a steep incline is another situation when you might need to use the rear brake. But not when coming to a stop on flat. 

Interesting. My motorcycle instructor said always use both with some exceptions like rear brake only in slow maneuvers,  etc.

As for blipping the throttle partially I am doing it just for fun. I love driving manual transmission  cars and love shifting gear on my bike too. I do most of my city driving in 1st through 3rd as city speeds are 50 to 60 kph. Just closing the throttle is usually enough braking for most casual city riding. I find that if I were to just clutch in, select a lower gear and then feather the clutch I would never get fully into gear before needing to grab the next lower gear because there is so much engine braking. I find rev matching decreases the amount of engine braking (compared to the previous scenario) and I get fully in gear. Again basically in any of these you don't end up really using the front brake because the engine is doing most of the work. 

Perhaps I am not riding correctly.

[FZ not MT]

17 hours ago, Julian said:

I always thought blipping the throttle is more of a show. It's definitely not necessary.

LOL and WOW, you couldn't be more wrong on that. I'm an older guy and have owned 50+ motorcycles over the years. When I bought my 2016 FZ-07, I never heard of rev matching. My FZ changed everything as rev matching was mandatory especially for things like coming into an exit ramp curve. If you didn't rev match you could be potentially in serious trouble. I learned about rev matching on this forum.

The original FZ-07 had some seriously crappy mapping and if you let off on the throttle suddenly, the bike would nose dive like crazy from engine braking. Add that to a situation where you downshifted one or two more than you realized as you were going into a corner, things could get bad quick. You literally had to rev match to prevent bad sh#t from happening.

The good news is that the 2WDW flash basically eliminated that problem, and I haven't had need to rev match since my flash - Something about a fuel cut-off during deceleration that 2WDW can eliminate.

For you guys with newer FZ/MT-07s, this may have been fixed by Yamaha. I demo'd a 2020 XSR700, and the mapping was better with no in-your-face nose diving.

 

[Julian]

38 minutes ago, FZ not MT said:

LOL and WOW, you couldn't be more wrong on that. I'm an older guy and have owned 50+ motorcycles over the years. When I bought my 2016 FZ-07, I never heard of rev matching. My FZ changed everything as rev matching was mandatory especially for things like coming into an exit ramp curve. If you didn't rev match you could be potentially in serious trouble. I learned about rev matching on this forum.

The original FZ-07 had some seriously crappy mapping and if you let off on the throttle suddenly, the bike would nose dive like crazy from engine braking. Add that to a situation where you downshifted one or two more than you realized as you were going into a corner, things could get bad quick. You literally had to rev match to prevent bad sh#t from happening.

The good news is that the 2WDW flash basically eliminated that problem, and I haven't had need to rev match since my flash - Something about a fuel cut-off during deceleration that 2WDW can eliminate.

For you guys with newer FZ/MT-07s, this may have been fixed by Yamaha. I demo'd a 2020 XSR700, and the mapping was better with no in-your-face nose diving.

 

FZ not MT, if you are going to quote me, do it right. You forgot this part:

18 hours ago, Julian said:

If you ease the clutch smoothly while accelerating at the same time you get to the same result, a smooth transition.

a.k.a. rev matching. I said blipping the throttle is not necessary and I proceeded to explain that it's not the only way to rev match. Keep learning my friend

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Julian

[seven]

1 hour ago, Julian said:

FZ not MT, if you are going to quote me, do it right. You forgot this part:

1 hour ago, Julian said:

If you ease the clutch smoothly while accelerating at the same time you get to the same result, a smooth transition.

a.k.a. rev matching. I said blipping the throttle is not necessary and I proceeded to explain that it's not the only way to rev match. Keep learning my friend

@Julian I obviously do not understand either what you are trying to explain in terms of rev matching. When we are talking about slowing down and rev matching, when I grab the next lower gear I need to increase the revs of the engine and the only way I now how to do that is to blip the throttle. What am I missing? Are we talking 2 different things?

@FZ not MT I have the 2WDW tune on my 2019 MT-07 and there is still lots of engine braking. In casual city driving I barely have to use brakes except for coming to a complete stop really. And if I don't rev match the downshift and get a little too aggressive on the clutch release, it is super easy to lock up the rear wheel.

[Julian]

1 hour ago, seven said:

@Julian I obviously do not understand either what you are trying to explain in terms of rev matching. When we are talking about slowing down and rev matching, when I grab the next lower gear I need to increase the revs of the engine and the only way I now how to do that is to blip the throttle. What am I missing? Are we talking 2 different things?

Ok let me go more in detail. I am assuming basic knowledge of how an engine and the clutch assembly work. When you press the clutch you disconnect the drivetrain from the engine, so they are allowed to spin at different speeds independently from one another. When you release the clutch after changig gears, if the engine is spinning slower than the drivetrain, you get engine braking. If the engine is spinning faster than the drivetrain, you get pulled forward. If the engine and the drivetrain are spinning at similar speeds i.e. rev matching, you keep rolling at constant speed and don't feel the change. Are you with me so far? Great. There is more than way to achieve this smooth transition:

Method 1: You learn/feel the combination of RPM and speed where your bike likes to shift. If you shift in those sweet spots, you will get a smooth transition without doing anything special. If your timing is just right, you can even shift up or down without using the cluch.

Method 2: Blip the throttle. This is a quick wrist movement while the clutch is pressed, allowing the engine to rev up freely, then back to the original position, then release the clutch. If you rev too much or too little you still get either engine brake or pull forward.

Method 3: Before downshifting, you roll off the throttle smoothly, while you press the clutch smootly. You downshift then release the clutch smoothly, while accelerating smoothly. That allows the  pressure plates to create enough friction that the speeds are matched, before they are fully engaged.

All methods still work best when the shifting is done around the points described in Method 1. That is your starting point.

Questions?

Edited August 3, 2021 by Julian

[seven]

5 minutes ago, Julian said:

Ok let me go more in detail. I am assuming basic knowledge of how an engine and the clutch assembly work. When you press the clutch you disconnect the drivetrain from the engine, so they can spin at different speeds. When you release the clutch after changig gears, if the engine is spinning slower than the drivetrain, you get engine braking. If the engine is spinning faster than the drivetrain, you get pulled forward. If the engine and the drivetrain are spinning at similar speeds i.e. rev matching, you keep rolling at constant speed and don't feel the change. Are you with me so far? Great. There is more than way to achieve this smooth transition:

Method 1: You learn/feel the combination of RPM and speed where your bike likes to shift. If you shift in those sweet spots, you will get a smooth transition without doing anything special. If your timing is just right, you can even shift up or down without using the cluch.

Method 2: Blip the throttle. This is a quick wrist movement while the clutch is pressed, allowing the engine to rev up freely, then back to the original position, then release the clutch. If you rev too much or too little you still get either engine brake or pull forward.

Method 3: Before downshifting, you roll off the throttle smoothly, while you press the clutch smootly. You downshift then release the clutch smoothly, while accelerating smoothly. That allows the  pressure plates to create enough friction that the speeds are matched, before they are fully engaged.

All methods still work best when the shifting is done at the points described in Mothod 1. That is your starting point.

Questions?

Yeah I think we are talking the same thing but you have a slightly different view of things than I do. For me your method 2 and method 3 should be the same when done properly. In my head "blip the throttle" is like your method 3 while not shooting the revs past the point that the everything is spinning at the same rate and assuming that when you say "accelerate" you really just mean raising the revs because we should not be accelerating at all.

 

[Julian]

Then you are confusing them. When you blip the throttle it's quick and you may go past the rev that you need then back. That's why it's called a blip. This video shows it 

In method 3 you turn the throttle smoothly then hold it steady.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Julian

[FZ not MT]

5 hours ago, Julian said:

FZ not MT, if you are going to quote me, do it right. You forgot this part:

No, I quoted exactly what I wanted to quote to emphasize the point I wanted to make. If you have a problem with my quote, it's your problem.

 

5 hours ago, Julian said:

Keep learning my friend

I always do...  you should try it!