HELP! MT07 died?? Hard start, loud noise and smoke from exhaust

[ElGonzales]

Now with the spark plugs in hand, I would start to check if there's really a regular spark between the electrodes while the engine cranks.
Spark at #1 but not at #2 = problem
Spark at #1 and #2 = further investigation

In case you already tested this, sorry. If you have no experience with this, ask. You have to know that there is High Voltage which may hurt you. Have you checked that the ECU connector is plugged in correctly?  I have no experiences with this power commander stuff. To me, it is botch (thats the expression the Google Translator gave me )  

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, Timo023 said:

The seller told me that he cannot help me and that its my problem now. 

Sorry to hear that. Take him off your Christmas card list.

That person is an irresponsible A-hole.

[Lone Wolf]

5 hours ago, Timo023 said:

...the problem got progressively worse and it killed my battery. 

Did the new battery arrive yet? Previously you posted very low voltage reading. a fully charged battery will read about 12.75 volts and have plenty of power in the bank for cranking. Simply a bad battery can make a bike run terrible.

[Timo023]

12 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Did the new battery arrive yet? Previously you posted very low voltage reading. a fully charged battery will read about 12.75 volts and have plenty of power in the bank for cranking. Simply a bad battery can make a bike run terrible.

Yeah swapped for the new battery today as well. starts fine but stil the same running problems..

[Lone Wolf]

OK, so the basic concepts are spark, fuel, and compression.

I have one of these Motion Pro spark testers. 

In this video you can see that the GAP on the tool is much larger than a typical spark plug gap. Like maybe twice as far. The reason for that is to make the coil "work" to jump that gap.  A good electrical system can throw a good hot spark, and if you don't make it jump beyond the gap of a typical spark plug you may not see that there is a problem. 

In other words, you could take a typical spark plug out of the engine, ground the outer area where the spark plug socket attaches, and see a spark when you crank the engine - but that spark may be too weak when inside the combustion chamber with fast moving gases and pressure. So you increase the gap and watch it jump.

Your plugs have a lot of carbon on them after you pulled them out, something isn't firing well (should be light tan or light gray, not full of soot). 

It isn't all that important how much bigger the gap is for testing. If you don't want the delay of getting a spark tester, you could simply buy new spark plugs and use your old ones as a tester by increasing the gap (like double the gap on one of the old plugs, you could triple the gap on the 2nd old plug). Use pliers to pull the gap larger, don't jamb a screwdriver in there to widen the gap or you could crack the ceramic insulator.

Your bike does start, so you are getting some fuel. Compression testers are cheap and where I am the auto parts stores will loan out specialized tools if you purchase parts from them (like spark plugs - good time to test compression when you are pulling old plugs and have access to everything). 

Hopefully you have awesome compression. If you don't, put a teaspoon of motor oil down the spark plug hole and crank it. Bad rings and the pressure goes up. No change in compression reading = leaking valve or head gasket.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Lone Wolf

[Lone Wolf]

9 hours ago, Timo023 said:

Well... New plugs, New battery. Same problem. 

Did BOTH of your old plugs look like this - or just one of them?

If the new plugs didn't help then something other than the plugs is causing this appearance - my prior post should give you some answers. Your plugs aren't firing well or something way rich. I don't see oil. Modern Fuel Injected motors tend to be lean if anything...

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Lone Wolf

[ElGonzales]

Picture of my old spark plugs for example. Bike runs great, so i guess it's quite ok  :

[Timo023]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Did BOTH of your old plugs look like this - or just one of them?

If the new plugs didn't help then something other than the plugs is causing this appearance - my prior post should give you some answers. Your plugs aren't firing well or something way rich. I don't see oil. Modern Fuel Injected motors tend to be lean if anything...

 

Thanks for you elaborate description. Yes both plugs looked like this. So the fuel map of the fuel commander is too rich. Once I have the bike running again I will see if I can alter the map a bit.

I will check some videos on how I can test if they are sparking properly. The plugs are new so this can be the problem. I switched the coils. No effect. So they aint the problem. Leaves me to check the electric signal to the coils somehow. 

But somehow I am starting to suspect a more mechanical issue here. Read an article about some guy with an mt09 who had his exhaust valves damaged which caused some similar problems. I will dig into this some more.

It sucks that the bike is broken but hey its a helloffa good way to get to know my bike hah.... Lucky its winter. 

 

[Lone Wolf]

The Prior owner installed a "Power Commander". You found loose wires associated with it, but even after removing it have some grief. 

44 minutes ago, Timo023 said:

...Yes both plugs looked like this. So the fuel map of the fuel commander is too rich. Once I have the bike running again I will see if I can alter the map a bit.

So you are referring to working with the "commander" (Power Commander)? I don't agree that your mixture is necessarily too rich, you may be getting piss-poor spark and your plugs have soot on them. Not getting complete combustion, for some reason that remains a mystery. Personally, I would start with the "spark gap" test in my previous post and you can do that for free with your old spark plugs by increasing the gap and see if it shoots a good hot spark across that distance. Do it at night to really see the spark, and ground the spark plug with something other than your hand.

I think you should cut your losses with the Power Commander.

I have not worked on one personally, but have a lot of respect for 2WheelDynoworks. Please take a moment and refer to this article they wrote mentioning the "Power Commander"

WHY IS ECU FLASHING BETTER THAN USING A “PIGGYBACK” FUEL CONTROLLER? – 2 Wheel DynoWorks

"Let’s fast forward to the modern era of motorcycle fuel injection systems and emissions compliance! Even on a relatively simple fuel injection system, like the one used on a Yamaha FZ/MT-07, Power Commanders, and every other piggyback fuel controller, simply doesn’t cut it anymore..." (very interesting read, as to why).

I agree with the following advice - and part of your challenge is to somehow actually "put the bike back stock" where the plugs are firing and look like they should, not covered in soot. 

8 hours ago, shinyribs said:

First thing I would do is put the bike back stock. Get rid of the power commander...

 

8 hours ago, shinyribs said:

I googled the part number. That's the actual power commander in your hand there ( I've never used one on a personal bike).

The ECU/computer sends out signals to make the bike run. The power commander intercepts these signals and modifies them. If your power commander is not powering up / grounded well... I hate those things. Working with my buddy in his motorcycle shop when he would be overwhelmed and needed extra hands, I can't even count how many power commanders we've pulled off. 

That 2WDW article goes on to say "Let’s pretend that none of those marks against piggyback controllers existed. Even if you could ignore ALL of those issues, you still have to swallow the fact that you’re going to spend an hour or two installing a system that taps into the stock wiring harness/connectors and is, sadly, prone to eventual failure, AND when these controllers do fail, you’re stuck on the side of the road until you can remove the unit from the bike. Even IF you’re willing to ignore the potential failure risk of an aftermarket fuel controller, you still have to either A) have the mapping dialed in by an experienced tuner on a dyno, OR B) rely on the generic mapping you can find online. Let’s put it this way: if the mapping available online was truly dialed in for a specific motorcycle and intake/exhaust system, it wouldn’t be available for free. At best, the mapping you can find on Power Commander’s website is at least better than stock for your specific bike’s setup. At worst, it’s even further from optimal than the stock mapping, which we sadly see ALL THE TIME on our dyno."

Edited December 19, 2020 by Lone Wolf

[shinyribs]

37 minutes ago, Timo023 said:

Thanks for you elaborate description. Yes both plugs looked like this. So the fuel map of the fuel commander is too rich. Once I have the bike running again I will see if I can alter the map a bit.

I will check some videos on how I can test if they are sparking properly. The plugs are new so this can be the problem. I switched the coils. No effect. So they aint the problem. Leaves me to check the electric signal to the coils somehow. 

But somehow I am starting to suspect a more mechanical issue here. Read an article about some guy with an mt09 who had his exhaust valves damaged which caused some similar problems. I will dig into this some more.

It sucks that the bike is broken but hey its a helloffa good way to get to know my bike hah.... Lucky its winter. 

 

Don't assume your bike is running rich because your plugs are black. Your plugs are black because the bike is unable to fire it's ignition system properly, which is resulting in the black plugs. You're not experiencing too much fuel, you're experiencing a weak ignition system. 

True, the power commander could be set up in such a way that it's dumping enormous amounts of fuel through the engine, but it ran ok prior to this failure. 

 

 You have to establish a healthy baseline at some point. All clues are currently pointing towards a faulty/ improperly installed piggyback unit that's hijacking your bikes ability to run. Anything can fail, but these bikes are hell for strong reliable in stock form. Put the bike stock. You can retain any aftermarket exhaust or air filter, just get the wiring harness back to stock. That's my two cents. I'm no expert, just saying these bikes just don't have problems without being meddled with.

[Lone Wolf]

12 minutes ago, shinyribs said:

Don't assume your bike is running rich because your plugs are black. Your plugs are black because the bike is unable to fire it's ignition system properly, which is resulting in the black plugs. You're not experiencing too much fuel, you're experiencing a weak ignition system. 

Exactly. He needs to do the spark test (like that Motion Pro video linked to above). If you get a weak spark with standard gap, increase the gap and there is no spark or very intermittent spark - then that will ID the problem.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Lone Wolf

[ElGonzales]

This is only brainstorming:
Both plugs are looking black, is there a probability both coils produce too weak sparks? ( -only a general ECU problem, I think) Thats a fact which bothers me a little bit. 
But however, another device that shows up from time to time as a source of problems is the MAP sensor. I don't want to act prematurely, but the voltage the ECU gets from it is a part of the calculation (together with air intake temperature) how much fuel has to be injected. But with implausible values of the MAP sensor, there should be a motor warning light in the dash

[00RAH]

Here's what happens when you put diesel in a petrol car: Petrol ignites by a spark from the spark plugs. Diesel in a petrol engine clogs up the spark plugs and fuel system. That means the car simply won't start. 

Putting petrol in a diesel car can cause serious damage to the fuel injection system and the engine. ... Serious engine damage may also occur due to detonation caused by uncontrolled petrol ignition under the much higher compression ratio in diesel engines.

..when all else fails just pour diesel on it.

Edited December 20, 2020 by 00RAH

[Timo023]

Allright. I will put it back to stock today once more. (meaning getting the power commander out of the equation).

Will also try the spark test. However the problem I am having is ONLY LEFT Cilinder. The plugs were both black so they might both spark not right but this has nothing to do with my problem since I am 100% sure that the problem is to be found in my left cilinder not working properly. Hopefully then I find my left cilinder not sparking right and can trace that back to the wiring harness. Coils are good. Will switch the wires around as well today.

When all of the above doesnt help. I am more and more feeding for a mechanical problem connecting with the loud backfire I heared on failure. Could the exhaust valves cause this? I will also do some checks which might point at the head gasket again.

[YZEtc]

Have you inspected the air filter and the inside of the airbox?

[robbo10]

Aren't there two things going on with a backfire?  Firstly, unburnt fuel needs to find its way to the exhaust.  But unburnt means that there is a failure to ignite. Finally, ignition of some kind happens ( hot exhaust gas?) causing the unburnt fuel to explode.  If there was a faulty exhaust valve, the normal in-cylinder firing might cause backfire?  Just my pen'orth - something to think about...?  Also, if the bike sometimes runs normally, surely the valve is unlikely to be at fault - it would not be an intermittent valve fault, surely? I am still on electricals.

[sansnombre]

I dare you to find this type of high-level response on any other forum. The info and insight on this forum is fantastic. There is lots of very good info on this thread, and Mossrider is second to none. Give serious consideration to what he suggests and direction.

My thoughts: all was working well before problem started. I'll assume something *just* happened, not something that was preexisting. This excludes the PCV. The middle of the ride, you gas up, then something happens. To me, that seems to be something to look at - may be a red-herring, yes - but maybe not. I've considered poor quality fuel, but you're only misfiring on one cylinder, so it's not that. How about a contaminant that clogs the FI on that one cylinder then? Maybe he's having partial flow on the bad cylinder?

In the old days, we would check for fuel by pulling the spark plug wire and turning over the engine. Pull the plug and see if it's visibly wet with fuel. Not sure if this works with FI.

I'm less inclined to look at the PCV because it worked before, and he's pulled it, returned to OEM, and the problem persists. So it's out.

The dark black on the plugs *could* mean poor spark, but I think it's more likely that the PCV is just not dialed and there are some ranges that are too rich. This is VERY EASY TO DO, especially if it hasn't been tuned on a dyno that was looking at AFR.

Did anything happen (sound, high rpm,  something) right before the problem started? What other pertinent details about the start of the problem can you provide?

Apologies if something I write about is previously discussed.

My two cents.

Good luck.

[Timo023]

6 hours ago, YZEtc said:

Have you inspected the air filter and the inside of the airbox?

No not yet. Will take a look tomorrow.

[Timo023]

3 hours ago, sansnombre said:

I dare you to find this type of high-level response on any other forum.

Yes! very happy with all the responses!!

I agree very much with your comment. When I bought it nothing was wrong with the bike. 

The day it happened the bike was outside in some heavy rain without cover for like an hour. Important detail. I put it on the steering lock which might have caused the exposed bare wires from the "clutch lever-in sensor" to touch the metal parts of the bike with ignition on. I drove it back the day before a 150km ride from the seller. run perfectly very steady and easy to ride on low speeds but was also able to hit her top speed for a bit without any issues. 

Back to the day it happed. Rain. Got it of the steering lock. Fired her up. No problems so far still running perfect. Drove for about 10mins until I hit a bump a little bit hard(but not that hard that it should be a problem normally) drove 5 mins further. Heared two huge bangs(could almost see the flames coming from the exhaust) and then I felt a loss in power weird ticking noise and on idle the bike just stalled. After that I had to give some gass at the lights to start her up again. I was able to drive home 10mins but the problem got progressively worse.

The next day when I started looking into the problem starting became harder with every time I tried. Until she wouldnt even start anymore. (probably from all the attempts) Battery turned out to be bad. So I changed it. I disconnected the power commander and brought the bike back to stock. (besides the detective heated grips and the akra carbon exhaust). No effect. Then I changed the sparkplugs for some new. No effect. Switched the coils around to see if the other cilinder would then become less hot. this did not happen. Also checked the radiator for bubbles when the bike was running. No sign and the fluid was looking good and topped off.

I tried to find why the heated grips aren't working but coulant find anything so far. On my ride back from the seller I could smell some burning smell coming but not sure where from. I assume the grips. I havent disconnected the grip yet... Will try this tomorrow as well. Maybe they are causing some kind of short.

Soo yeahh. Still the same problem. She fires up right away. Runs seemingly without problems for a couple of seconds. And then the ticking sound comes in and the exhaust starts banging around loudly en revs go up and down. You hear the rotation of the engine also going up a bit just when the problem starts.

 

Called a yamaha dealer today. The have no time available till januari. So in the meantime I will keep trying. I am at unexperienced mechanic but hey everybody got to learn somehow right. Next thing I will try is the spark check suggested by lone Wolf.

Any more wise suggestions on what to check? Hounestly wiring wise I would have no idea how and were to start... Besides visual inspection.

Thanks Guys!!

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

6 minutes ago, Timo023 said:

...Next thing I will try is the spark check

If possible, do it at night so you can truly see what is happening.  You will get shocked if you don't use something other than your hand to hold the plug against metal (use a block of wood, or at the very least heavy leather gloves).

If you don't have access to the Motion Pro (or other) spark tester and decide to use the old dirty plugs as a test (increase the gap and watch the spark) be sure to clean them up first.

With all that soot and garbage on the plug, the electricity my take a short cut to ground because you no longer have the clean white ceramic insulator that forces the spark to jump across the gap.

[Timo023]

3 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

If possible, do it at night so you can truly see what is happening.  You will get shocked if you don't use something other than your hand to hold the plug against metal (use a block of wood, or at the very least heavy leather gloves).

If you don't have access to the Motion Pro (or other) spark tester and decide to use the old dirty plugs as a test (increase the gap and watch the spark) be sure to clean them up first.

With all that soot and garbage on the plug, the electricity my take a short cut to ground because you no longer have the clean white ceramic insulator that forces the spark to jump across the gap.

Ok thanks.

And uuh... stupid question maybe. But doesnt it hurt that one of my cilinders is open without a plug and coil? where Does the fuel go thats injected into the cilinder?

[mossrider]

Just now, Timo023 said:

I tried to find why the heated grips aren't working but coulant find anything so far. On my ride back from the seller I could smell some burning smell coming but not sure where from. I assume the grips. I havent disconnected the grip yet... Will try this tomorrow as well. Maybe they are causing some kind of short.

See my original posts. Get rid of those grip heaters, I thought you had already done this. If they're not working properly they are invariably shorting, are probably the source of the burning smell and the cause of your misfire as well. And get that clutch disconnect (or whatever that was) hooked back up and any other loose wires tidied up while you're at it! Stop chasing more serious problems until all the obvious simple things are covered.  Don't make me come over there!

 

[mossrider]

Just now, Timo023 said:

Ok thanks.

And uuh... stupid question maybe. But doesnt it hurt that one of my cilinders is open without a plug and coil? where Does the fuel go thats injected into the cilinder?

Hurts nothing, pumps into the atmosphere. No combustion outside of a properly timed, compressive, fueled and sparked cylinder. 

[00RAH]

10 hours ago, Timo023 said:

Important detail. I put it on the steering lock which might have caused the exposed bare wires from the "clutch lever-in sensor" to touch the metal parts of the bike with ignition on. I drove it back the day before a 150km ride from the seller. run perfectly very steady and easy to ride on low speeds but was also able to hit her top speed for a bit without any issues. 

Back to the day it happed. Rain. Got it of the steering lock.

omg you drove @ top speed with the steering lock on? no wonder its stuffed.

[stickshift]

On 12/20/2020 at 12:57 AM, Timo023 said:

also found this loose wire

Your power commander appears to have a quick shifter fitted (2 pink wires) - have you removed it? 
Looking at the poor wiring jobs a previous owner has done, I’d be removing all non-standard electrical parts before attempting any further diagnosis.